Australian Politics Forum - honour killing in New York

Yadda

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #15 - Oct 30^th, 2013 at 4:04pm

|dev|null wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 3:28pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:14pm:

... wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:08pm:

ian wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 12:48am:

So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon.

Any statistics or sources to show just how prevalent "extremely" is?

Yes, any statistics or sources available, to show just how prevalent familial murders are, segregated by culture or religion ?

When are we going to see yours? Cheesy

Hot_Breath,

My response to YOUR post;

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:03pm:

gandalf,

Your argument, is a ludicrous argument.

The argument that, we could expect the rate of familial murder to be similar, in two [different] communities, when each of those communities has a very different law [from the other], relating to familial murder.

e.g.
When in all Western societies all such murders are unlawful.

But where in the ISLAMIC community, ISLAMIC law 'lawfully' excuses the murder of wives, sisters, brothers, sons, and daughters, so long as the reason that the murderer gives [for committing the murder], aligns with a lawful reason for committing the murder [i.e. the lawful reason being, because the victim of the murder was in rebellion against ISLAMIC authority over their life].

...........
The Hadith,

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #16 - Oct 30^th, 2013 at 4:11pm

|dev|null wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 3:28pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:14pm:

... wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:08pm:

ian wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 12:48am:

So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon.

Any statistics or sources to show just how prevalent "extremely" is?

Yes, any statistics or sources available, to show just how prevalent familial murders are, segregated by culture or religion ?

When are we going to see yours? Cheesy

I keep seeing a figure of 91% of 'honor killings" worldwide being done by muselmen, with the remainder being homos killed for being homos in south america.
far be it from me to accept this claim at face value - it could be 90%, it could be 92%, but one things for sure - It doesn't leave a lot of room for the "extremely prevalent" honor killings in the west.

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In the fullness of time...

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gizmo_2655

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #17 - Oct 30^th, 2013 at 4:16pm

ian wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 12:48am:

So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon.

Sorry ian, Western society doesn't generally kill in the name of honour (not since dueling went out of fashion, anyway). We're Capitalists, much more likely to sue, than kill.
Cash (or prison) is almost always an acceptable substitute.

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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polite_gandalf

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #18 - Oct 30^th, 2013 at 5:34pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:03pm:

The argument that, we could expect the rate of familial murder to be similar, in two [different] communities, when each of those communities has a very different law [from the other], relating to familial murder.

e.g.
When in all Western societies all such murders are unlawful.

1. No country on earth abides by your demented idea of what islamic law is.

2. Name a single muslim country that "has a very different law" to western countries vis-a-vis familial murder.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #19 - Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 5:34pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:03pm:

The argument that, we could expect the rate of familial murder to be similar, in two [different] communities, when each of those communities has a very different law [from the other], relating to familial murder.

e.g.
When in all Western societies all such murders are unlawful.

1. No country on earth abides by your demented idea of what islamic law is.

2. Name a single muslim country that "has a very different law" to western countries vis-a-vis familial murder.

#1,
One example - Jordan

Quote:

"....Murder is punishable by death in Jordan but in so-called "honour killings" courts can commute or reduce sentences, particularly if the victim's family asks for leniency...."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/jordanian-man-charged-over-hono...

#2,
One example - Saudi Arabia

Quote:

"British girl kidnapped by Saudi father: "I told [the Saudi police] he was keeping me there against my will and all they said was, 'He's your father, if he wants he can kill you'."
"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/04/british-girl-kidnapped-by-saudi-father-i-told-...i

+++

gandalf,

But the details in these examples, have nothing to do with ISLAM. Tongue

Right ?

And you are a Kifir, gandalf.

It is the hot place for you and your 'bros'!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #20 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 10:05am

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:30pm:

#1,
One example - Jordan

The Australian article is extrapolating - misleadingly.

In islamic law sentences can be commuted/reduced in any type of murder if the victim's family asks for leniency. Usually they will be compensated by the payment of blood money. So it is not unique for so called honour killings.

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:30pm:

#2,
One example - Saudi Arabia

a single anecdote means nothing. What does actual Saudi LAW say? Find me the part in Saudi law - or Jordanian law for that matter, that states that sentences for familial murder must be less than the sentence for any other type of murder.

I concede the point that in regards to the victim's families request for leniency having an influence on the sentencing - that does differ to our western laws. Is that a bad thing though?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #21 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 10:08am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 10:05am:

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:30pm:

#1,
One example - Jordan

The Australian article is extrapolating - misleadingly.

In islamic law sentences can be commuted/reduced in any type of murder if the victim's family asks for leniency. Usually they will be compensated by the payment of blood money. So it is not unique for so called honour killings.

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:30pm:

#2,
One example - Saudi Arabia

a single anecdote means nothing. What does actual Saudi LAW say? Find me the part in Saudi law - or Jordanian law for that matter, that states that sentences for familial murder must be less than the sentence for any other type of murder.

I concede the point that in regards to the victim's families request for leniency having an influence on the sentencing - that does differ to our western laws. Is that a bad thing though?

If the victim's family is also the accused's family (in the case of familial killings), then yes it is a bad thing.

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Yadda

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #22 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 11:07am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 10:05am:

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:30pm:

#1,
One example - Jordan

The Australian article is extrapolating - misleadingly.

Of course it is.

It is an ignorant infidel account, which is scrutinising moslem affairs, and which is

misrepresenting/misinterpreting/slandering moslems and ISLAM

.

Those damnable Kuffar!!!!!!

They will all go to hell for their slander, against Allah's perfect religion!!!!!!!

Cheesy

+++

My assesment is correct, isn't it gandalf ? Wink

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #23 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 1:33pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 29^th, 2013 at 9:38pm:

Y. as usual my point flies right over your head.

You claimed a little while back that filicide is "common" in the muslim world. These types of killings, which always gets our western media in a frenzy, are popularly known as "honour killings".

Whatever you meant by "common" (you never did clarify despite repeated requests), there is a fairly widespread assumption that muslims kill members of their family at higher rates than any non-muslim society - mainly because of the way 'honour killings' are so highly publicised in our media. My opinion is that this assumption is wrong because it is utterly baseless. Part of the problem is that whenever a muslim is killed by a member of his/her family, it is always portrayed as a matter of "honour" - regardless of the circumstances. My point here is to use the same prescription in non-muslim society. A man kills his relatives for whatever reason - is it about "honour" who knows? Such a concept is neither here nor there. Yet if it was muslim, the media and the public would jump at the opportunity to call it an "honour killing". Why is that?

Ultimately, what this boils down to is we have no basis to call this honour killing thing a muslim phenomenom when we don't even know the rate of these killings compared to non-muslims.

How was this guy's honour violated by any of the victims?

Please explain.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #24 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 2:51pm

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 1:33pm:

How was this guy's honour violated by any of the victims?

Please explain.

Thats actually my point S. Every case of muslims killing members of their family is automatically labelled an honour killing - regardless of what actually happened. We don't take the same attitude towards non-muslim familial killings - particularly in cases involving westerners. In the west they are aberrations, in the islamic world its cultural. We (as in people like Yadda) make these assumptions without even knowing how prevalent the phenomenon is in the islamic world compared to the non-islamic world. How does that work? How can we say something is cultural or systematic when for all we know its just as much an aberration as it is in the western world. One way we can do that is lump all the sickos in the muslim world together and call it "cultural" or "islamic", but dismiss the equivalents in the west as mere aberrations - despite the fact that they are equally on the fringe in both places. Thats my point about this story - its just another western aberration, whereas if we heard a report of the same thing, in the same circumstances in the muslim world, we would be drawing all the usual conclusions about "culture" and "islam".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Big Dave

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #25 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 3:02pm

Some people move to another country with a different culture and have absolutely no inclination to change or adapt. Instead they go the other way. Just like those old Greek immigrants that wear black and go back to Greece for a holiday and find themselves caught in a time warp. So some girl from one of these types of families brings home a Christian kid or wants to change religion etc. That's the reason these murders are occurring. They can't stand the fact that their family, culture or religion may change. WHY GO ABROAD THEN!!Measures by western governments like citizenship tests were constructed to counter these occurrences.

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Yadda

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Re: honour killing in New York
Reply #26 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 3:33pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 2:51pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 1:33pm:

How was this guy's honour violated by any of the victims?

Please explain.

Thats actually my point S. Every case of muslims killing members of their family is automatically labelled an honour killing - regardless of what actually happened. We don't take the same attitude towards non-muslim familial killings - particularly in cases involving westerners. In the west they are aberrations, in the islamic world its cultural. We (as in people like Yadda) make these assumptions without even knowing how prevalent the phenomenon is in the islamic world compared to the non-islamic world. How does that work?

How can we say something is cultural or systematic when for all we know its just as much an aberration as it is in the western world.

One way we can do that is lump all the sickos in the muslim world together and call it "cultural" or "islamic", but dismiss the equivalents in the west as mere aberrations - despite the fact that they are equally on the fringe in both places. Thats my point about this story - its just another western aberration, whereas if we heard a report of the same thing, in the same circumstances in the muslim world, we would be drawing all the usual conclusions about "culture" and "islam".

Murdering family members is certainly 'aberrant' behaviour, ganalf.

What heart could/would sanction it ?

FURTHER;

gandalf asks,

"How can we say [familial murder may be predominantly] cultural or systematic [in an ISLAMIC setting]."
???

gandalf,

How ???

Because in an ISLAMIC 'environment'/jurisdiction, the 'abhorrent' behaviour [of familial murder], has an extra motivation/inducement - which is not present within all Western jurisdictions.

And that 'inducement' is, that familial murder is 'lawfully' excused, if the murder is committed against an enemy of Allah.

as per.....

The Hadith,

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

AND;

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector." [<---- i.e. 'outlaws', are NOT protected, by the 'common' law]
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

+++

gandalf,

I hope for the day, for you to openly acknowledge, that ISLAM is, and promotes, wickedness in hearts of men.

I am not holding my breath!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: honour killing in New York Reply #27 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 3:43pm Yadda wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 3:33pm: And that 'inducement' is, that familial murder is 'lawfully' excused, if the murder is committed against an enemy of Allah. Name one islamic country, or even islamic legal jurisdiction that "lawfully" excuses familial murder in ANY circumstance. Just one.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21894 A cat with a view	Re: honour killing in New York Reply #28 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 3:47pm Any takers ? I am growing weary of this charade.
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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21894 A cat with a view	Re: honour killing in New York Reply #29 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 3:52pm Google; leniency, muslim murder of sister
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