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Poll Poll
Question: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Yes, ofcause.    
  18 (72.0%)
No, it doesnt    
  7 (28.0%)




Total votes: 25
« Created by: Pantheon on: Oct 29th, 2013 at 9:31am »

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Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? (Read 59349 times)
Vuk11
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #165 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 2:22am
 
Setanta wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 1:53am:
I understand what you are saying "legally". It comes down to without a govt a corporation would not be named a corporation and not have any laws applied to it. What would it be? A rose by another name? I'm sorry, I just don't have your faith, and that's what it it, in letting greed run our economic system. I have seen no reason in over half a century to think greed works in the interests of the majority. Markets should serve all people not vise versa.


Markets serve everyone A. Through trade between individuals and B. through appeasing consumer demand/desire and fears. Whichever business addresses these fears satisfactorily gets all the customers does it not?

Without the government it's a business, it labels itself, you label it, however it has no coercion backing it. No one stealing from tax payers to keep failed business afloat, they have to keep themselves afloat by providing the best possible service at the lowest prices to consumers or else bye bye business.

Without the government it doesn't have the power to do anything besides use money, but without limited liability the responsibility for upholding contracts etc falls on the owners/investors etc. If the business sways and gets a bad credit rating or gets targeted by DRO's or has accounts frozen by a bank for proven fraud, it falls on the owners.

Is it not easier and more beneficial for a business to just seek profit, rather then go into debt to try and undercut compeititors or buy out competitors etc. Any action a business tries to do that corporations already do would literally put them under with debt, to fund any action other than the business they'd have to raise prices, cut investor profits, CEO pay etc. People most likely won't be using too much of a fiat currency system anyways and would be unable to just borrow and borrow and borrow.

If a business ever does something immoral cut the funding simple, McDonalds is raising costs to support a McDonalds Army? No electricity for you (against contract claus), frozen bank accounts because the bank fears violent take over (contract claus in setting up an account) etc etc.

What board of directors at McDonalds is going to accept raised prices (lowered customers), lowered profits and incur debt to fund a private army, to do what? Force people to buy only from them? Then what you have a gun nut libertarian (  Tongue) town full of gun owners, you have DRO's that guarantee protection, forzen bank accounts, cut electricity, no one wants to deal with you. I mean Maccas is just not going to do something so stupid when they can just continue to make people fat through addictive fast food and property profits!  Grin
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #166 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 10:37am
 
Setanta wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 1:40am:
From memory, the Dutch started the idea of corporations and stock markets, the Brits couldn't be outdone by a bunch of Boors(English for Boers, just for Andrei) so took to it with gusto.


I appreciate your contributions Setanta. Actually the English East Indies corp was set up in 1600, the Dutch followed suit in 1602 and added the Share and stockmarket concept. Actually from memory I believe it was a Scottish advisor to the Dutch who conceptualised the share market.

Pretty soon governments got into the act with France raising money by selling 'bonds'. This enabled really really big and expensive wars.


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Grey - You can tack a seagulls wings on a dog, but will it fly?



Quote:
Vuk - Lol good one! Though come on, does that analogy really imply that voluntary trade for mutually perceived benefit has no place in a free society?
 

No it doesn't imply that, I'm saying that tacking Anarcho onto Capital isn't useful. Free market Capitalism isn't useful either, 'Heads is tails just call it Lucifer(ism)' because corporations are 'in need of some restraint'.

What you seem to be advocating for is a barter system with bookeeping. Maybe that's what we'll agree to in the end. But consider what the prime motive is for human activity. I wish I had a penny for every time I heard, 'No we can't do that there isn't enough money'. Money isn't the source of human creativity, it's the biggest obstacle.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #167 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 10:53am
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 2:22am:
Setanta wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 1:53am:
I understand what you are saying "legally". It comes down to without a govt a corporation would not be named a corporation and not have any laws applied to it. What would it be? A rose by another name? I'm sorry, I just don't have your faith, and that's what it it, in letting greed run our economic system. I have seen no reason in over half a century to think greed works in the interests of the majority. Markets should serve all people not vise versa.


Markets serve everyone A. Through trade between individuals and B. through appeasing consumer demand/desire and fears. Whichever business addresses these fears satisfactorily gets all the customers does it not?

Without the government it's a business, it labels itself, you label it, however it has no coercion backing it. No one stealing from tax payers to keep failed business afloat, they have to keep themselves afloat by providing the best possible service at the lowest prices to consumers or else bye bye business.

Without the government it doesn't have the power to do anything besides use money, but without limited liability the responsibility for upholding contracts etc falls on the owners/investors etc. If the business sways and gets a bad credit rating or gets targeted by DRO's or has accounts frozen by a bank for proven fraud, it falls on the owners.

Is it not easier and more beneficial for a business to just seek profit, rather then go into debt to try and undercut compeititors or buy out competitors etc. Any action a business tries to do that corporations already do would literally put them under with debt, to fund any action other than the business they'd have to raise prices, cut investor profits, CEO pay etc. People most likely won't be using too much of a fiat currency system anyways and would be unable to just borrow and borrow and borrow.

If a business ever does something immoral cut the funding simple, McDonalds is raising costs to support a McDonalds Army? No electricity for you (against contract claus), frozen bank accounts because the bank fears violent take over (contract claus in setting up an account) etc etc.

What board of directors at McDonalds is going to accept raised prices (lowered customers), lowered profits and incur debt to fund a private army, to do what? Force people to buy only from them? Then what you have a gun nut libertarian (  Tongue) town full of gun owners, you have DRO's that guarantee protection, forzen bank accounts, cut electricity, no one wants to deal with you. I mean Maccas is just not going to do something so stupid when they can just continue to make people fat through addictive fast food and property profits!  Grin


Macca's is running a private army RIGHT NOW, killing and driving people from their homes, slashing and burning rainforest to graze cheap beef. Coke and Pepsi do it too, to grow cheap sugar cane. What is the extent of corporate collusion? Is it the same army? Do they run the same lobby? Do you expect the murderous thugs they employ to run around in clown suits with MACARMY stencilled on the back?
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #168 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 12:52pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 7:27pm:
Watch the video it explains the relationship between employers and employees and how both sides are equal until union/ big business come in and influence government until one sides lose (believe it or not if one side lose both sides loses)


The video assumes that employers are always fair and honest in their dealings with workers.  It fails to address what happens when they aren't.  That is why regulations and unions exist - to protect the workers from exploitative employers.  That is why regulation and Unions grew up, they were there because of a perceived need.  Cause and effect.  They didn't spring up out of no where!

Quote:
when Government intervention things always get worst. We should leave it up to the employers and employees and if you like unions to deal with their own issues.


Except then you get employers employing Company Goons to terrorise their work force.  You didn't it couldn't happen?  It has and does happen.  They're often called "lawyers" nowadays...   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin

Quote:
And then be sacked.  Is that fair as well?  Unfair Dismissal has been largely removed as means of complaint against a sacking.  Looks to me like the worker is being squeezed by everybody over everything.


Is it fair for employees to be sacked because they are unwilling to worker unusually long hours? , yes its fair, its mean and not nice but who knows maybe the small business is struggling to make money or pay its bills on time and needs more work time done without pay,
[/quite]

How can it be "fair" when you admit that it is "mean" and "not nice"?  Essentially you've just contradicted yourself.  The Employee and the Employer are not equal.  The Employer it seems can demand extra, unpaid labour from the Employee and threaten them with the sack, with no recourse if they refuse.  Yet, if an Employee was to demand that they work fewer hours for the same amount of pay, the Employer could refuse and the Employee can't sack the Employer, now can they?   The Employer holds the whip hand and treats all Employees as "wage slaves".  According to you, that isn't exploitation?  You're using an odd definition then!   Angry Angry Angry Angry

Quote:
Why is it fair to force a business to do something it might not even be afforded?


Why is it fair to effectively force employees to work for no pay?

Quote:
Quote:
They still do.   The problem is the workers yet again end up being shafted with their entitlements being often lost because the system believers shareholders' rights take priority over workers' rights


This can be explained by the video.. thank your big business and government..


Neither are mine.  Both are aspects of the capitalism you extoll.  Appears you don't even understand what "exploitation" means!   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #169 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 1:56pm
 
Grey wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 10:37am:
Setanta wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 1:40am:
From memory, the Dutch started the idea of corporations and stock markets, the Brits couldn't be outdone by a bunch of Boors(English for Boers, just for Andrei) so took to it with gusto.


I appreciate your contributions Setanta. Actually the English East Indies corp was set up in 1600, the Dutch followed suit in 1602 and added the Share and stockmarket concept. Actually from memory I believe it was a Scottish advisor to the Dutch who conceptualised the share market.



And I appreciate the correction. Wink Should have checked rather than rely on memory.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #170 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 7:19pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:05pm:
Pantheon wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 8:17pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 7:58pm:
Pantheon wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 7:27pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 12:23pm:
I have provided you with a simple first step reference, I have referred to advocates of capitalism who warn about the inherent immorality and un natural self destructive elements that are BUILT IN to the capitalist regime/ I could go on...

You have ignored these points even though they are basic starting points for this important debate.

Your mind seems to be made up on this issue.

So the only things left for me to fire at you are the basal rocks that expose your hypocrisy, your inability to empathise with your fellow human being, your persistent adherence to totalitarianism, your refusal to award basic human rights and freedoms to the working class and treat them as the capitalist slaves that you wish them to be, your deranged lack of social justice.

I could go on - but I wont.

I will allow you to stew in your own ferment - to pick up the pieces of your lunacy and plungement into the abyss of your own cerebral vomit you flowery scoundrel



you referred some who saw the inherent immorality and un natural self destructive elements of capitalism are a better option than socialism or any other economic system. 

Interesting enough its because of him who helped worsen capitalism by enabling government and big business to push down not only small business to the ground but the worker worst of all.



Jesus Christ was a socialist - are you casting moral aspersions on Christian ethics?


Why are you bringing religion into this debate?,

That's not the way i saw it, Jesus wasn't a socialist but instead was advocating free choose, so the individual can choose to donate to charity to help the poor for example can help. i don't remember readying anything in the bible saying Jesus wanted the government to force hard working family to pay for other peoples life styles.

However even if he was a socialist, i don't care.. now get back to the topic...


Don't contaminate the ethics of Christianity with your materialistic fascist corporatized capitalist immorality

I am not a Christian - but I enjoy exposing hypocritical insecure corporatists with little baby Jesus

The first thing they often do is SCREAM that Jesus was not a socialist - lol

In the USA they openly claim that Jesus would approve of imperial militarism and war as well as their capitalist ideologies (which they don't have anyway)

you were exposed in public for what you are

Its good that you posted this thread topic

How is the Poll going?


Ok so Christians are hypocritical... this is about capitalism not religion, i honestly don't care.. get back onto topic.

Oh and the polls is giving me a'lot of important feed back, it doesn't matter if it goes one way or the other, its clear the majority see capitalism exploits workers, however just because majority believe Capitalism Exploit Workers doesn't mean they are right after all history is full of examples of majority supporting the immoral believing the wrong Nazi Germany is a great example.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #171 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 7:38pm
 
No ArfaViking Nazi Germany is not a good example. That was more a case of people being snivelling soineless cowards in the face of 'authority'.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #172 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 8:07pm
 
So far i've see people being confuse seeing today's Corporatism or Cronyism and mistaking it for capitalism.

Quote:
Capitalism Isn't Corporatism or Cronyism

In fact, capitalism is the system of rights, liberty, civility, peace and non-sacrificial prosperity; it’s not the system of government that unjustly favors capitalists at others’ expense. It provides a level legal playing field plus officials who serve us as low-profile referees (not arbitrary rule-makers or score-changers). To be sure, capitalism also entails inequality – of ambition, talent, income, or wealth – because that’s how individuals (and firms) really are; they’re unique, not clones or inter-changeable parts, as the egalitarians claim. Capitalism is the political system which ensures that innocent “economic power” (i.e., the power to produce) isn’t mixed with force to become invalid political power (i.e., the power to loot); it’s the system that separates business and state, for the same good reason that it also makes sure to separate church and state. Neither of the two recent political movements – “Occupy Wall Street” or the “Tea Party” – seem to fully grasp this.

Yes, there’s an alternative system that does entail the government unjustly ruling business and government, in turn, improperly controlled by business for business’s exclusive benefit (whether by subsidies, special favors, monopolies and franchises, tax breaks, or bailouts), even as it nominally still permits private property holdings: it’s called “corporatism” (sometimes, synonymously, “cronyism” or “fascism”). Corporatism was the system originated almost a century ago by the American “Progressives,” and later by Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany, and Roosevelt in the U.S. (see his 1933 National Recovery Act, struck down by the Supreme Court in 1935 as unconstitutional because it was so corporatist). Corporatism goes hand-in-hand with statism, with abandonment of the fully free economy and adoption of the welfare-warfare state. Yet while many oppose cronyism, corporate welfare, and bailouts, they also endorse handouts to almost everyone else, including to the politically-valuable cronies so easily found among today’s labor union leaders, “green” companies, under-water homeowners, over-indebted college students, and war-happy munitions makers.

In the world today (and for most of the past century) we haven’t had capitalism per se but instead the welfare state and corporatism; we’ve had what are commonly called “mixed economies,” those with some remaining vestiges of capitalist freedom but also many (and fast-proliferating) controls and taxes. Obfuscations about capitalism’s real nature and the blurring of distinctions between the terms capitalism and corporatism make it difficult for most people to discern cause and effect whenever some disaster or corruption arises, and thus it’s difficult to assign proper blame or achieve a lasting remedy. Yet people should always remind themselves that freedom breeds peace, justice, and prosperity, while coercion breeds violence, exploitation and poverty. When a mixed economy fails, it’s not its capitalist aspect that fails – unless you believe freedom itself fails.

Whenever we observe indisputable socio-economic disasters or injustices – in the best recent example, the Great Recession of 2007-2009, the 2008 financial crisis (and TARP bailouts), the sub-prime loan debacle, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, underwater mortgages and defaults, persistently high jobless rates – we shouldn’t waste any time disputing whether they were caused by the freedom or rather the coercion part of the mixed economy. They were caused by the coercive element, not the free one (or from “deregulation”) – and that’s where all remedies must lie. We need more freedoms and less controls.  We must identify, locate, and excise all those many government agencies, subsidies, taxes, and regulations that violate our liberties and rights, those that transform officials from mere referees on life’s field into savages running amuck, altering rules and redistributing well-earned points – and thereby wrecking an otherwise perfectly fine and fun game

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardsalsman/2011/12/07/capitalism-is-decidedly-not-corporatism-or-cronyism/2/
.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #173 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 8:20pm
 
Grey wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 7:38pm:
No ArfaViking Nazi Germany is not a good example. That was more a case of people being snivelling soineless cowards in the face of 'authority'.


evidence?

What seemed to be a small fractional party with no real threat to the democratic system became a nation-wide infatuation within a matter of years.  How did they do it?


The upsurge of Nazi votes after 1929 was due to many factors.  Quite probably, national greatness and economic despair loomed much larger in most people’s minds than did the rather remote issue of the so-called Jewish question.

Money and the promise of economic success was another reason why people were so attracted to the Nazis.  With the Stock Market Crash of 1929 that led to the Great Depression, many Germans were devastated financially and unable to recover for quite some time, if ever.  Already poor civilians became poverty stricken, homeless, and jobless.  The upper class citizens who had money invested in the

stock market lost everything they had and were not willing to reinvest to inject money into the German economy, for they feared losing the little they had left.  People lost faith in the Weimar government, which seemed to do nothing to help them get their money back.  And then came Hitler, boldly promising economic reform.  He preached the same message as he had been saying before 1929, but now people were more willing to listen.  In a state of crisis, Hitler seemed to be calm and collected.  It seemed to the people of Germany that Hitler would be the hero that would save the German people from the financial woes associated with the Weimar democracy.


a case of people being snivelling soineless cowards in the face of 'authority'..No
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #174 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 9:02pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 4:05pm:
Interstingly Athos free market capitalism promotes two things, not just one. It promotes competition between business and employees which empirically IS beneficial as a whole. It also promotes voluntary interaction for mutually perceived benefit IE cooperation.

I fail to see how people trading voluntarily in cooperation and competing to please consumers / employess is immoral.


As I sad capitalism together with Social Darwinism is based on negative human characteristics, like greed and ruthless inhuman competition. Such environment creates morally distorted humans (consumers).
Capitalism and Social Darwinism are in their essence  anti - Christian and anti - human bringing human kind back to the barbaric caves.
When early capitalists in Britain were so excited about the idea of applying Darwin's theory in human society Darwin replied: "But gentlemen this only applies in animals' world".
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Do we need to be always politically correct.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #175 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 9:10pm
 
Careful not to talk too much in absolutes when there are variations unless you're talking about fundamentals.

Greed is a great example where it isn't a zero sum game, black and white immoral. Take investing, so that you can make a profit and leave something behind for your kids. That A. produces jobs for people, B. It produces products/services for people and C. Leaves something behind for your kids, all three are obviously desirable outcomes or at least positive.

You could make the case that the competition is in-human in that it goes above some human interaction and takes precedence over co-operation sometimes, however this again isn't black and white as the competition it produces can be healthy for both business' that are competing and also healthy for the consumer that benefits from it.

I get what you're saying but I wouldn't marry free market capitalism with social Darwinism as 100% compatible and 100% intertwined.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #176 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 9:23pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 8:20pm:
Grey wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 7:38pm:
No ArfaViking Nazi Germany is not a good example. That was more a case of people being snivelling soineless cowards in the face of 'authority'.


evidence?

What seemed to be a small fractional party with no real threat to the democratic system became a nation-wide infatuation within a matter of years.  How did they do it?


The upsurge of Nazi votes after 1929 was due to many factors.  Quite probably, national greatness and economic despair loomed much larger in most people’s minds than did the rather remote issue of the so-called Jewish question.

Money and the promise of economic success was another reason why people were so attracted to the Nazis.  With the Stock Market Crash of 1929 that led to the Great Depression, many Germans were devastated financially and unable to recover for quite some time, if ever.  Already poor civilians became poverty stricken, homeless, and jobless.  The upper class citizens who had money invested in the

stock market lost everything they had and were not willing to reinvest to inject money into the German economy, for they feared losing the little they had left.  People lost faith in the Weimar government, which seemed to do nothing to help them get their money back.  And then came Hitler, boldly promising economic reform.  He preached the same message as he had been saying before 1929, but now people were more willing to listen.  In a state of crisis, Hitler seemed to be calm and collected.  It seemed to the people of Germany that Hitler would be the hero that would save the German people from the financial woes associated with the Weimar democracy.


a case of people being snivelling soineless cowards in the face of 'authority'..No


Well, actually yes.  Always remember, the Nazis never achieved a share of the national vote in German greater than ~35% IIRC and that was only through intimidation.

So combining intimidation with coercion, Hitler came to power.  By corrupting and suppressing any possible opposition he was able to gain control of Germany.   Remember Pastor Niomoller's poem?  By cleverly eliminating, corrupting and suppressing opponents, the people of Germany were left with no choice but to support him.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #177 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 10:25pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 8:07pm:
So far i've see people being confuse seeing today's Corporatism or Cronyism and mistaking it for capitalism.

Quote:
Capitalism Isn't Corporatism or Cronyism

In fact, capitalism is the system of rights, liberty, civility, peace and non-sacrificial prosperity; it’s not the system of government that unjustly favors capitalists at others’ expense. It provides a level legal playing field plus officials who serve us as low-profile referees (not arbitrary rule-makers or score-changers). To be sure, capitalism also entails inequality – of ambition, talent, income, or wealth – because that’s how individuals (and firms) really are; they’re unique, not clones or inter-changeable parts, as the egalitarians claim. Capitalism is the political system which ensures that innocent “economic power” (i.e., the power to produce) isn’t mixed with force to become invalid political power (i.e., the power to loot); it’s the system that separates business and state, for the same good reason that it also makes sure to separate church and state. Neither of the two recent political movements – “Occupy Wall Street” or the “Tea Party” – seem to fully grasp this.

Yes, there’s an alternative system that does entail the government unjustly ruling business and government, in turn, improperly controlled by business for business’s exclusive benefit (whether by subsidies, special favors, monopolies and franchises, tax breaks, or bailouts), even as it nominally still permits private property holdings: it’s called “corporatism” (sometimes, synonymously, “cronyism” or “fascism”). Corporatism was the system originated almost a century ago by the American “Progressives,” and later by Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany, and Roosevelt in the U.S. (see his 1933 National Recovery Act, struck down by the Supreme Court in 1935 as unconstitutional because it was so corporatist). Corporatism goes hand-in-hand with statism, with abandonment of the fully free economy and adoption of the welfare-warfare state. Yet while many oppose cronyism, corporate welfare, and bailouts, they also endorse handouts to almost everyone else, including to the politically-valuable cronies so easily found among today’s labor union leaders, “green” companies, under-water homeowners, over-indebted college students, and war-happy munitions makers.

In the world today (and for most of the past century) we haven’t had capitalism per se but instead the welfare state and corporatism; we’ve had what are commonly called “mixed economies,” those with some remaining vestiges of capitalist freedom but also many (and fast-proliferating) controls and taxes. Obfuscations about capitalism’s real nature and the blurring of distinctions between the terms capitalism and corporatism make it difficult for most people to discern cause and effect whenever some disaster or corruption arises, and thus it’s difficult to assign proper blame or achieve a lasting remedy. Yet people should always remind themselves that freedom breeds peace, justice, and prosperity, while coercion breeds violence, exploitation and poverty. When a mixed economy fails, it’s not its capitalist aspect that fails – unless you believe freedom itself fails.

Whenever we observe indisputable socio-economic disasters or injustices – in the best recent example, the Great Recession of 2007-2009, the 2008 financial crisis (and TARP bailouts), the sub-prime loan debacle, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, underwater mortgages and defaults, persistently high jobless rates – we shouldn’t waste any time disputing whether they were caused by the freedom or rather the coercion part of the mixed economy. They were caused by the coercive element, not the free one (or from “deregulation”) – and that’s where all remedies must lie. We need more freedoms and less controls.  We must identify, locate, and excise all those many government agencies, subsidies, taxes, and regulations that violate our liberties and rights, those that transform officials from mere referees on life’s field into savages running amuck, altering rules and redistributing well-earned points – and thereby wrecking an otherwise perfectly fine and fun game

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardsalsman/2011/12/07/capitalism-is-decidedly-not-corporatism-or-cronyism/2/
.


Balls - Who came up with the idea of derivatives, Junk Bonds, monetary speculation, sub prime real estate contracts? The Market.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #178 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 11:08pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 8:07pm:
So far i've see people being confuse seeing today's Corporatism or Cronyism and mistaking it for capitalism.

Quote:
Capitalism Isn't Corporatism or Cronyism

In fact, capitalism is the system of rights, liberty, civility, peace and non-sacrificial prosperity; it’s not the system of government that unjustly favors capitalists at others’ expense. It provides a level legal playing field plus officials who serve us as low-profile referees (not arbitrary rule-makers or score-changers). To be sure, capitalism also entails inequality – of ambition, talent, income, or wealth – because that’s how individuals (and firms) really are; they’re unique, not clones or inter-changeable parts, as the egalitarians claim. Capitalism is the political system which ensures that innocent “economic power” (i.e., the power to produce) isn’t mixed with force to become invalid political power (i.e., the power to loot); it’s the system that separates business and state, for the same good reason that it also makes sure to separate church and state. Neither of the two recent political movements – “Occupy Wall Street” or the “Tea Party” – seem to fully grasp this.

Yes, there’s an alternative system that does entail the government unjustly ruling business and government, in turn, improperly controlled by business for business’s exclusive benefit (whether by subsidies, special favors, monopolies and franchises, tax breaks, or bailouts), even as it nominally still permits private property holdings: it’s called “corporatism” (sometimes, synonymously, “cronyism” or “fascism”). Corporatism was the system originated almost a century ago by the American “Progressives,” and later by Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany, and Roosevelt in the U.S. (see his 1933 National Recovery Act, struck down by the Supreme Court in 1935 as unconstitutional because it was so corporatist). Corporatism goes hand-in-hand with statism, with abandonment of the fully free economy and adoption of the welfare-warfare state. Yet while many oppose cronyism, corporate welfare, and bailouts, they also endorse handouts to almost everyone else, including to the politically-valuable cronies so easily found among today’s labor union leaders, “green” companies, under-water homeowners, over-indebted college students, and war-happy munitions makers.

In the world today (and for most of the past century) we haven’t had capitalism per se but instead the welfare state and corporatism; we’ve had what are commonly called “mixed economies,” those with some remaining vestiges of capitalist freedom but also many (and fast-proliferating) controls and taxes. Obfuscations about capitalism’s real nature and the blurring of distinctions between the terms capitalism and corporatism make it difficult for most people to discern cause and effect whenever some disaster or corruption arises, and thus it’s difficult to assign proper blame or achieve a lasting remedy. Yet people should always remind themselves that freedom breeds peace, justice, and prosperity, while coercion breeds violence, exploitation and poverty. When a mixed economy fails, it’s not its capitalist aspect that fails – unless you believe freedom itself fails.

Whenever we observe indisputable socio-economic disasters or injustices – in the best recent example, the Great Recession of 2007-2009, the 2008 financial crisis (and TARP bailouts), the sub-prime loan debacle, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, underwater mortgages and defaults, persistently high jobless rates – we shouldn’t waste any time disputing whether they were caused by the freedom or rather the coercion part of the mixed economy. They were caused by the coercive element, not the free one (or from “deregulation”) – and that’s where all remedies must lie. We need more freedoms and less controls.  We must identify, locate, and excise all those many government agencies, subsidies, taxes, and regulations that violate our liberties and rights, those that transform officials from mere referees on life’s field into savages running amuck, altering rules and redistributing well-earned points – and thereby wrecking an otherwise perfectly fine and fun game

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardsalsman/2011/12/07/capitalism-is-decidedly-not-corporatism-or-cronyism/2/
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Your first highlighted: Why does he say it's innocent economic power? I believe he might be making the argument "guns don't kill people, people do" when in reality it's "people with guns that kill people." Either way, how does capitalism restrain greed at the expense of others? There is no "sharing with the tribe" or anything like it in capitalism. Tell me how anything he says shows how capitalism won't produce that which he claims it will prevent? Who will keep this separation of "innocent powers" from corrupt ones like "govt power" or the "power of community" if not economic power? Explain how it is a cuddly teddy bear rather than a voracious world eater?

Second highlighted is just unadulterated crap. Government bad, regulation bad, let us help you, give us your world and you will be better off!

You can't seriously read this stuff and not see it as apologist material for unfettering the capitalists to do as they want.
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #179 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 7:17am
 
Ahovking,

You seem to be having great difficulty justifying the inherent immorality and un-natural ethical base that underpins the inefficient and self destructive "capitalist" ideal.

Is it any wonder no society has implemented this ideology in its purest form and allowed it to wreck everything automatically?

Even its advocates like Keynes cast warnings about this very aspect of the capitalist scam.

You have a lot of explaining to do in here Ahovking.

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