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Poll Poll
Question: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Yes, ofcause.    
  18 (72.0%)
No, it doesnt    
  7 (28.0%)




Total votes: 25
« Created by: Pantheon on: Oct 29th, 2013 at 9:31am »

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Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? (Read 59335 times)
Vuk11
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #180 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 9:41am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 7:17am:
Ahovking,

You seem to be having great difficulty justifying the inherent immorality and un-natural ethical base that underpins the inefficient and self destructive "capitalist" ideal.

Is it any wonder no society has implemented this ideology in its purest form and allowed it to wreck everything automatically?

Even its advocates like Keynes cast warnings about this very aspect of the capitalist scam.

You have a lot of explaining to do in here Ahovking.



Wow chimp I'd LOVE to see you justify capitalism's inefficiency, I think every economist would agree the efficiency of co-operative trade and business competition is unquestionable.

What inherent immorality? I would love to see you actually use logic to prove the immorality in pure free market capitalism, or are you still mixing state created corporations with the free market?

Un-natural too? What could be more natural than co-operation and trade?! I have no idea how you've come to these conclusions, seems like Peter Joseph (Zeitgeister) you're just jamming opposites together.

It's not up to society (nowadays) what structure they implement, people have no bearing, did the people decide on what Hitler/Stalin/Mao chose to do? Did the people decide one day to have a pharaoh or king? TPTB are scared of competition, they literally exert control over the world through fiat currency, which is why they've attacked alternatives and invaded every country that's decided to by pass US dollars in oil trade see; Libya, Iraq, Africa, Syria, Iran etc etc

You've really got to stop mentioning keynes as well, you seem to place him as a false champion for capitalism so you can pull it down with his own bias'. Keynes was regarded as ignorant of economics, which is why he had such an unorthodox view. You can point to keynes complaining about unfettered capitalism but what was his magical alternative? What we have now? Fat lot of good that's done. (I admit they haven't listened to him word for word though, they haven't listened to any economist word for word AFAIK)

"One of the reasons I am in favor of less government is because when you have more government, industrialists take it over. And the two together form a coalition against the ordinary worker and the ordinary consumer." - Milton Friedman
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« Last Edit: Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:00am by Vuk11 »  
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #181 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:34pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 9:41am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 7:17am:
Ahovking,

You seem to be having great difficulty justifying the inherent immorality and un-natural ethical base that underpins the inefficient and self destructive "capitalist" ideal.

Is it any wonder no society has implemented this ideology in its purest form and allowed it to wreck everything automatically?

Even its advocates like Keynes cast warnings about this very aspect of the capitalist scam.

You have a lot of explaining to do in here Ahovking.



Wow chimp I'd LOVE to see you justify capitalism's inefficiency, I think every economist would agree the efficiency of co-operative trade and business competition is unquestionable.



That's where the propaganda commences mr vuk11. You are suckered in to thinking CAPITALISM is the the responsible efficient way to carry out commercial operations. lol. it doesn't surprise me that you are easily swayed by this spin crap.

When you set up a capitalist SCAM of socialist corporate welfare, and externalities that are passed on to future generations or to the tax payers purse, then things appear efficient and profitable dont they vuk11.

the problem is YOU don't even understand what CAPITALISM is and how it is avoided in the world.

China has a state run pseudo capitalist system whilst the USA has a Socialist Corporate run pseudo capitalist system

Both are tyrannical in nature and promote fascist ideologies within their societies.

Efficiency has nothing to do with the Capitalist ideal.

An ideal which is only interested in WHO makes the profits and how efficient you can shut out the actual WORKERS who are responsible for the profit.

(Citing nut case fascist Chicago economists only weakens your arguments vuk11 you smelly freak)
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #182 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:49pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:34pm:
That's where the propaganda commences mr vuk11. You are suckered in to thinking CAPITALISM is the the responsible efficient way to carry out commercial operations. lol. it doesn't surprise me that you are easily swayed by this spin crap.

When you set up a capitalist SCAM of socialist corporate welfare, and externalities that are passed on to future generations or to the tax payers purse, then things appear efficient and profitable dont they vuk11.



No when you set up corporate welfare, socialist programs it appears under control when it really isn't. I see nothing about out current system that appears efficient to me in the slightest. Too much red tape for small business to compete = inefficient. Horrible court system geared to wards protecting the wealthy = inefficient. Socialized; health, education, income = inefficient. What appears efficient to you?

Quote:
the problem is YOU don't even understand what CAPITALISM is and how it is avoided in the world.

China has a state run pseudo capitalist system whilst the USA has a Socialist Corporate run pseudo capitalist system

Both are tyrannical in nature and promote fascist ideologies within their societies.

Efficiency has nothing to do with the Capitalist ideal.

An ideal which is only interested in WHO makes the profits and how efficient you can shut out the actual WORKERS who are responsible for the profit.

(Citing nut case fascist Chicago economists only weakens your arguments vuk11 you smelly freak)



A lot of noise yet nothing was actually proven Chimp.
I love how you bag Friedman yet he was right in my above quote how you talk about people shutting out the workers. They can do this with militant unions, corporate powers in bed with the state etc etc but he was right, the marrying of industrialists with the politicians is a union against the worker and against the consumer. Free market capitalism removes that.

Just saying it's inefficient isn't proving that the core concept of trade as being inefficient.

I understand what is in effect today in the US and China, are you going to explain why they want what they have now instead of free market capitalism? Is it because it makes the people more powerful and happier? No it's because they're afraid of competition and afraid of anything that threatens their monopoly, Or do you have a different opinion?

You make so many statements and think that's an argument:

- I don't understand free market capitalism? Prove it, or are you referring to the current Crony social corporatism? Which I do understand but that isn't what I'm talking about
- Nut case Friedman? Prove it.
- Inefficiency? Prove it.
- Immorality? Prove it.

Prove what you say otherwise it's just noise mate, the only thing you've attempted to prove was that unfettered capitalism is dangerous because Keynes said so....bad example of a capitalist Chimp, may as well get a socialist call them a capitalist and then say "see they hate capitalism too!"
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #183 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:04pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:49pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:34pm:
That's where the propaganda commences mr vuk11. You are suckered in to thinking CAPITALISM is the the responsible efficient way to carry out commercial operations. lol. it doesn't surprise me that you are easily swayed by this spin crap.

When you set up a capitalist SCAM of socialist corporate welfare, and externalities that are passed on to future generations or to the tax payers purse, then things appear efficient and profitable dont they vuk11.



No when you set up corporate welfare, socialist programs it appears under control when it really isn't. I see nothing about out current system that appears efficient to me in the slightest. Too much red tape for small business to compete = inefficient. Horrible court system geared to wards protecting the wealthy = inefficient. Socialized; health, education, income = inefficient. What appears efficient to you?

Quote:
the problem is YOU don't even understand what CAPITALISM is and how it is avoided in the world.

China has a state run pseudo capitalist system whilst the USA has a Socialist Corporate run pseudo capitalist system

Both are tyrannical in nature and promote fascist ideologies within their societies.

Efficiency has nothing to do with the Capitalist ideal.

An ideal which is only interested in WHO makes the profits and how efficient you can shut out the actual WORKERS who are responsible for the profit.

(Citing nut case fascist Chicago economists only weakens your arguments vuk11 you smelly freak)



A lot of noise yet nothing was actually proven Chimp.
I love how you bag Friedman yet he was right in my above quote how you talk about people shutting out the workers. They can do this with militant unions, corporate powers in bed with the state etc etc but he was right, the marrying of industrialists with the politicians is a union against the worker and against the consumer. Free market capitalism removes that.

Just saying it's inefficient isn't proving that the core concept of trade as being inefficient.

I understand what is in effect today in the US and China, are you going to explain why they want what they have now instead of free market capitalism? Is it because it makes the people more powerful and happier? No it's because they're afraid of competition and afraid of anything that threatens their monopoly, Or do you have a different opinion?

You make so many statements and think that's an argument:

- I don't understand free market capitalism? Prove it, or are you referring to the current Crony social corporatism? Which I do understand but that isn't what I'm talking about
- Nut case Friedman? Prove it.
- Inefficiency? Prove it.
- Immorality? Prove it.

Prove what you say otherwise it's just noise mate, the only thing you've attempted to prove was that unfettered capitalism is dangerous because Keynes said so....bad example of a capitalist Chimp, may as well get a socialist call them a capitalist and then say "see they hate capitalism too!"


the only noise in here is the reverberations of your capitalist spin

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #184 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:04pm
 
Quote:
Your first highlighted: Why does he say it's innocent economic power? I believe he might be making the argument "guns don't kill people, people do" when in reality it's "people with guns that kill people." Either way, how does capitalism restrain greed at the expense of others? There is no "sharing with the tribe" or anything like it in capitalism. Tell me how anything he says shows how capitalism won't produce that which he claims it will prevent? Who will keep this separation of "innocent powers" from corrupt ones like "govt power" or the "power of community" if not economic power? Explain how it is a cuddly teddy bear rather than a voracious world eater?

Second highlighted is just unadulterated crap. Government bad, regulation bad, let us help you, give us your world and you will be better off!

You can't seriously read this stuff and not see it as apologist material for unfettering the capitalists to do as they want
.

When he says "innocent economic power" he means the power to produce isn’t mixed with force to become invalid political power (i.e., the power to loot); it’s the system that separates business and state. Most of your question can be answered from the video and the article..

Second: It goes like this: let’s say you want to open a bakery. In the western world, you’d hire a realtor, find a space, pay “key money” to reserve that space, file articles of incorporation, pay a trademark attorney to check your name, send forms in triplicate to three-letter agencies, shout a bunch of four-letter words, wait for the forms to come back, pass environmental regulations, take a public health test, hire employees being ever so careful not to call some girl “hun” and get sued, buy equipment, file tax forms with different agencies, connect all of your finances to the government “grid”, promote your business (but not on a street light because that’s illegal), open your doors, and sell delicious muffins to a group of customers that isn’t growing and whose incomes are stagnant.

In the frontier market, the story is a little different: find a space, install equipment, start baking. Simple as that.

http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/09/12/overregulation-crony-capitalism-and-the-death-of-the-free-market/


the article goes to to say with so much regulation small business are being pushed out while large corporations are finding it easier to control the market. This isn't capitalism but corporatism where corporations are in bed with government and the more government gets involve in the market the more subsidies, special favors, monopolies and franchises, tax breaks, or bailouts will receive..

You will find as the people call a pond the government to step in and regulation more the more corporations will grow and the more harm we will see. We don't have a capitalist system full stop.

In a capitalist system government does not regulation (or at lest to the same degree as today) the markets nor does it hand out subsidies, special favors, monopolies and franchises, tax breaks, or bailouts troubling/failing business, however corporatism (cronyism) does.

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #185 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:04pm
 
Grey wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 10:25pm:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 8:07pm:
So far i've see people being confuse seeing today's Corporatism or Cronyism and mistaking it for capitalism.

Quote:
Capitalism Isn't Corporatism or Cronyism

In fact, capitalism is the system of rights, liberty, civility, peace and non-sacrificial prosperity; it’s not the system of government that unjustly favors capitalists at others’ expense. It provides a level legal playing field plus officials who serve us as low-profile referees (not arbitrary rule-makers or score-changers). To be sure, capitalism also entails inequality – of ambition, talent, income, or wealth – because that’s how individuals (and firms) really are; they’re unique, not clones or inter-changeable parts, as the egalitarians claim. Capitalism is the political system which ensures that innocent “economic power” (i.e., the power to produce) isn’t mixed with force to become invalid political power (i.e., the power to loot); it’s the system that separates business and state, for the same good reason that it also makes sure to separate church and state. Neither of the two recent political movements – “Occupy Wall Street” or the “Tea Party” – seem to fully grasp this.

Yes, there’s an alternative system that does entail the government unjustly ruling business and government, in turn, improperly controlled by business for business’s exclusive benefit (whether by subsidies, special favors, monopolies and franchises, tax breaks, or bailouts), even as it nominally still permits private property holdings: it’s called “corporatism” (sometimes, synonymously, “cronyism” or “fascism”). Corporatism was the system originated almost a century ago by the American “Progressives,” and later by Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany, and Roosevelt in the U.S. (see his 1933 National Recovery Act, struck down by the Supreme Court in 1935 as unconstitutional because it was so corporatist). Corporatism goes hand-in-hand with statism, with abandonment of the fully free economy and adoption of the welfare-warfare state. Yet while many oppose cronyism, corporate welfare, and bailouts, they also endorse handouts to almost everyone else, including to the politically-valuable cronies so easily found among today’s labor union leaders, “green” companies, under-water homeowners, over-indebted college students, and war-happy munitions makers.

In the world today (and for most of the past century) we haven’t had capitalism per se but instead the welfare state and corporatism; we’ve had what are commonly called “mixed economies,” those with some remaining vestiges of capitalist freedom but also many (and fast-proliferating) controls and taxes. Obfuscations about capitalism’s real nature and the blurring of distinctions between the terms capitalism and corporatism make it difficult for most people to discern cause and effect whenever some disaster or corruption arises, and thus it’s difficult to assign proper blame or achieve a lasting remedy. Yet people should always remind themselves that freedom breeds peace, justice, and prosperity, while coercion breeds violence, exploitation and poverty. When a mixed economy fails, it’s not its capitalist aspect that fails – unless you believe freedom itself fails.

Whenever we observe indisputable socio-economic disasters or injustices – in the best recent example, the Great Recession of 2007-2009, the 2008 financial crisis (and TARP bailouts), the sub-prime loan debacle, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, underwater mortgages and defaults, persistently high jobless rates – we shouldn’t waste any time disputing whether they were caused by the freedom or rather the coercion part of the mixed economy. They were caused by the coercive element, not the free one (or from “deregulation”) – and that’s where all remedies must lie. We need more freedoms and less controls.  We must identify, locate, and excise all those many government agencies, subsidies, taxes, and regulations that violate our liberties and rights, those that transform officials from mere referees on life’s field into savages running amuck, altering rules and redistributing well-earned points – and thereby wrecking an otherwise perfectly fine and fun game

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardsalsman/2011/12/07/capitalism-is-decidedly-not-corporatism-or-cronyism/2/
.


Balls - Who came up with the idea of derivatives, Junk Bonds, monetary speculation, sub prime real estate contracts? The Market.


yes however thanks to government we have this thing called a central bank system for example which interferes with the interest rate, usually suppressing it below where the market would have it by allowing banks of deposit to lend new money into existence, which leads to bad investment decision which as we have seen led to the GFC.

The more government regulate the more it interferes in the market and the more 'crashes' we will face.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #186 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:05pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:04pm:
Grey wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 10:25pm:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 8:07pm:
So far i've see people being confuse seeing today's Corporatism or Cronyism and mistaking it for capitalism.

Quote:
Capitalism Isn't Corporatism or Cronyism

In fact, capitalism is the system of rights, liberty, civility, peace and non-sacrificial prosperity; it’s not the system of government that unjustly favors capitalists at others’ expense. It provides a level legal playing field plus officials who serve us as low-profile referees (not arbitrary rule-makers or score-changers). To be sure, capitalism also entails inequality – of ambition, talent, income, or wealth – because that’s how individuals (and firms) really are; they’re unique, not clones or inter-changeable parts, as the egalitarians claim. Capitalism is the political system which ensures that innocent “economic power” (i.e., the power to produce) isn’t mixed with force to become invalid political power (i.e., the power to loot); it’s the system that separates business and state, for the same good reason that it also makes sure to separate church and state. Neither of the two recent political movements – “Occupy Wall Street” or the “Tea Party” – seem to fully grasp this.

Yes, there’s an alternative system that does entail the government unjustly ruling business and government, in turn, improperly controlled by business for business’s exclusive benefit (whether by subsidies, special favors, monopolies and franchises, tax breaks, or bailouts), even as it nominally still permits private property holdings: it’s called “corporatism” (sometimes, synonymously, “cronyism” or “fascism”). Corporatism was the system originated almost a century ago by the American “Progressives,” and later by Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany, and Roosevelt in the U.S. (see his 1933 National Recovery Act, struck down by the Supreme Court in 1935 as unconstitutional because it was so corporatist). Corporatism goes hand-in-hand with statism, with abandonment of the fully free economy and adoption of the welfare-warfare state. Yet while many oppose cronyism, corporate welfare, and bailouts, they also endorse handouts to almost everyone else, including to the politically-valuable cronies so easily found among today’s labor union leaders, “green” companies, under-water homeowners, over-indebted college students, and war-happy munitions makers.

In the world today (and for most of the past century) we haven’t had capitalism per se but instead the welfare state and corporatism; we’ve had what are commonly called “mixed economies,” those with some remaining vestiges of capitalist freedom but also many (and fast-proliferating) controls and taxes. Obfuscations about capitalism’s real nature and the blurring of distinctions between the terms capitalism and corporatism make it difficult for most people to discern cause and effect whenever some disaster or corruption arises, and thus it’s difficult to assign proper blame or achieve a lasting remedy. Yet people should always remind themselves that freedom breeds peace, justice, and prosperity, while coercion breeds violence, exploitation and poverty. When a mixed economy fails, it’s not its capitalist aspect that fails – unless you believe freedom itself fails.

Whenever we observe indisputable socio-economic disasters or injustices – in the best recent example, the Great Recession of 2007-2009, the 2008 financial crisis (and TARP bailouts), the sub-prime loan debacle, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, underwater mortgages and defaults, persistently high jobless rates – we shouldn’t waste any time disputing whether they were caused by the freedom or rather the coercion part of the mixed economy. They were caused by the coercive element, not the free one (or from “deregulation”) – and that’s where all remedies must lie. We need more freedoms and less controls.  We must identify, locate, and excise all those many government agencies, subsidies, taxes, and regulations that violate our liberties and rights, those that transform officials from mere referees on life’s field into savages running amuck, altering rules and redistributing well-earned points – and thereby wrecking an otherwise perfectly fine and fun game

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardsalsman/2011/12/07/capitalism-is-decidedly-not-corporatism-or-cronyism/2/
.


Balls - Who came up with the idea of derivatives, Junk Bonds, monetary speculation, sub prime real estate contracts? The Market.


yes however thanks to government we have this thing called a central bank system for example which interferes with the interest rate, usually suppressing it below where the market would have it by allowing banks of deposit to lend new money into existence, which leads to bad investment decision which as we have seen led to the GFC.

The more government regulate the more it interferes in the market and the more 'crashes' we will face.


are you talking about the Federal Reserve?

A private scam - check your facts before you issue blame you apologist for fascist corporatism
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #187 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:06pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:04pm:
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:49pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:34pm:
That's where the propaganda commences mr vuk11. You are suckered in to thinking CAPITALISM is the the responsible efficient way to carry out commercial operations. lol. it doesn't surprise me that you are easily swayed by this spin crap.

When you set up a capitalist SCAM of socialist corporate welfare, and externalities that are passed on to future generations or to the tax payers purse, then things appear efficient and profitable dont they vuk11.



No when you set up corporate welfare, socialist programs it appears under control when it really isn't. I see nothing about out current system that appears efficient to me in the slightest. Too much red tape for small business to compete = inefficient. Horrible court system geared to wards protecting the wealthy = inefficient. Socialized; health, education, income = inefficient. What appears efficient to you?

Quote:
the problem is YOU don't even understand what CAPITALISM is and how it is avoided in the world.

China has a state run pseudo capitalist system whilst the USA has a Socialist Corporate run pseudo capitalist system

Both are tyrannical in nature and promote fascist ideologies within their societies.

Efficiency has nothing to do with the Capitalist ideal.

An ideal which is only interested in WHO makes the profits and how efficient you can shut out the actual WORKERS who are responsible for the profit.

(Citing nut case fascist Chicago economists only weakens your arguments vuk11 you smelly freak)



A lot of noise yet nothing was actually proven Chimp.
I love how you bag Friedman yet he was right in my above quote how you talk about people shutting out the workers. They can do this with militant unions, corporate powers in bed with the state etc etc but he was right, the marrying of industrialists with the politicians is a union against the worker and against the consumer. Free market capitalism removes that.

Just saying it's inefficient isn't proving that the core concept of trade as being inefficient.

I understand what is in effect today in the US and China, are you going to explain why they want what they have now instead of free market capitalism? Is it because it makes the people more powerful and happier? No it's because they're afraid of competition and afraid of anything that threatens their monopoly, Or do you have a different opinion?

You make so many statements and think that's an argument:

- I don't understand free market capitalism? Prove it, or are you referring to the current Crony social corporatism? Which I do understand but that isn't what I'm talking about
- Nut case Friedman? Prove it.
- Inefficiency? Prove it.
- Immorality? Prove it.

Prove what you say otherwise it's just noise mate, the only thing you've attempted to prove was that unfettered capitalism is dangerous because Keynes said so....bad example of a capitalist Chimp, may as well get a socialist call them a capitalist and then say "see they hate capitalism too!"


the only noise in here is the reverberations of your capitalist spin



Haha i think Vuk11 got him there, how about debating his points chimp.. or don't you have a counter argument?
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #188 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:07pm
 
So a guy with two bananas trades one banana to a guy with two bottles for one of his water bottles. It is voluntary trade, they both mutually perceive benefit from the exchange. I am saying this is moral, this is a good thing and this is better than the guy with the banana trying to get a hold of his own water and the guy with the water trying to grow his own bananas when he has the manufacture of water bottles to worry about .This is called the division of labour.

Somehow this is capitalist spin? So they aren't both better off in their own view? This isn't moral? This isn't trade? What are you even saying chimp.....I can recommend some professionals IF you want help.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #189 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:09pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:06pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:04pm:
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:49pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:34pm:
That's where the propaganda commences mr vuk11. You are suckered in to thinking CAPITALISM is the the responsible efficient way to carry out commercial operations. lol. it doesn't surprise me that you are easily swayed by this spin crap.

When you set up a capitalist SCAM of socialist corporate welfare, and externalities that are passed on to future generations or to the tax payers purse, then things appear efficient and profitable dont they vuk11.



No when you set up corporate welfare, socialist programs it appears under control when it really isn't. I see nothing about out current system that appears efficient to me in the slightest. Too much red tape for small business to compete = inefficient. Horrible court system geared to wards protecting the wealthy = inefficient. Socialized; health, education, income = inefficient. What appears efficient to you?

Quote:
the problem is YOU don't even understand what CAPITALISM is and how it is avoided in the world.

China has a state run pseudo capitalist system whilst the USA has a Socialist Corporate run pseudo capitalist system

Both are tyrannical in nature and promote fascist ideologies within their societies.

Efficiency has nothing to do with the Capitalist ideal.

An ideal which is only interested in WHO makes the profits and how efficient you can shut out the actual WORKERS who are responsible for the profit.

(Citing nut case fascist Chicago economists only weakens your arguments vuk11 you smelly freak)



A lot of noise yet nothing was actually proven Chimp.
I love how you bag Friedman yet he was right in my above quote how you talk about people shutting out the workers. They can do this with militant unions, corporate powers in bed with the state etc etc but he was right, the marrying of industrialists with the politicians is a union against the worker and against the consumer. Free market capitalism removes that.

Just saying it's inefficient isn't proving that the core concept of trade as being inefficient.

I understand what is in effect today in the US and China, are you going to explain why they want what they have now instead of free market capitalism? Is it because it makes the people more powerful and happier? No it's because they're afraid of competition and afraid of anything that threatens their monopoly, Or do you have a different opinion?

You make so many statements and think that's an argument:

- I don't understand free market capitalism? Prove it, or are you referring to the current Crony social corporatism? Which I do understand but that isn't what I'm talking about
- Nut case Friedman? Prove it.
- Inefficiency? Prove it.
- Immorality? Prove it.

Prove what you say otherwise it's just noise mate, the only thing you've attempted to prove was that unfettered capitalism is dangerous because Keynes said so....bad example of a capitalist Chimp, may as well get a socialist call them a capitalist and then say "see they hate capitalism too!"


the only noise in here is the reverberations of your capitalist spin



Haha i think Vuk11 got him there, how about debating his points chimp.. or don't you have a counter argument?


vuk11 wont even tackle the externalities point I raised

I can only do so much with these brain washed capitalist apologists for fascism who worship the Chicago economist clowns

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #190 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:10pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:05pm:
are you talking about the Federal Reserve?

A private scam - check your facts before you issue blame you apologist for fascist corporatism



He's right the government is responsible for the creation of the federal reserve in 1913? (I think that was the year). We know it's a private central bank now but before then the state looked after currency, until that point.

Multiple private competing currencies > State run currency > Single private central currency reserve of the western world.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #191 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:10pm
 
come vuk11

where is your moral justification for the fascist capitalist corporate system you worship?

where is the justification for the corporate welfare cheques handed out to your beloved EFFICIENT regime?

this should be good!
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #192 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:11pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:10pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:05pm:
are you talking about the Federal Reserve?

A private scam - check your facts before you issue blame you apologist for fascist corporatism



He's right the government is responsible for the creation of the federal reserve in 1913? (I think that was the year). We know it's a private central bank now but before then the state looked after currency, until that point.

Multiple private competing currencies > State run currency > Single private central currency reserve of the western world.


According to Greenspan, the FEDERAL RESERVE is totally independent from the government

List the share holders of the Federal Reserve Bank

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #193 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:16pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:09pm:
vuk11 wont even tackle the externalities point I raised

I can only do so much with these brain washed capitalist apologists for fascism who worship the Chicago economist clowns



What externalities?

You said:

Quote:
When you set up a capitalist SCAM of socialist corporate welfare, and externalities


Where is the example of an externality?
Where is the logic behind what you've said?
Where is the empirical evidence if any or is it theoretical?

You followed with:

Quote:
then things appear efficient and profitable dont they vuk11.


I replied with my opinion that they don't look efficient. Here:

Quote:
No when you set up corporate welfare, socialist programs it appears under control when it really isn't.


See I disagree that when you setup socialized corporate welfare it appears efficient to me, because it does't. It appears that they are in control, but they aren't in control. I explained why it doesn't appear efficient to me:

Quote:
Too much red tape for small business to compete = inefficient. Horrible court system geared to wards protecting the wealthy = inefficient. Socialized; health, education, income = inefficient. What appears efficient to you?


So I did address that sentence of yours, I addressed the premise that what you listed creates the illusion of efficiency. However I don't know what externalities you refer to or do you mean just that sentence I replied to?
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #194 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:17pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:10pm:
come vuk11

where is your moral justification for the fascist capitalist corporate system you worship?

where is the justification for the corporate welfare cheques handed out to your beloved EFFICIENT regime?

this should be good!


I am not an advocate nor will I justify corporate welfare or socialism. I am a free market advocate, it is not up to me to justify that which I don't agree with. Are you still confusing free markets with crony corporatism run by the state?
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