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Poll Poll
Question: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Yes, ofcause.    
  18 (72.0%)
No, it doesnt    
  7 (28.0%)




Total votes: 25
« Created by: Pantheon on: Oct 29th, 2013 at 9:31am »

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Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? (Read 59392 times)
Vuk11
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #210 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 9:26pm
 
Grey wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 9:20pm:
Quote:
You're an Anarchist Grey, how do you intend to keep people from participating in free market capitalism? Or are people free to do so? I always worry about the Anarchist transition method in respect to property, how well they intend to respect the opinion of others.


You ask such questions of ME? You who are so impertinent as to brand Anarchism Capitalist!

Maybe you should fight it out with those other totalitarians the 'Anarcho-Communists', on a plain, far far away. When you are done you can come to the table, be sure to bring an open mind.


Wow I think you have misunderstood every single post I have made. I value your opinion, you are "pure anarchist" and all I was asking was what your opinion on the transition would be and what do the people in your ideology intend to do with other peoples property during the transition.....and I'm not open minded?

I wasn't trying to be incendiary in the least. I don't know how I'm a totalitarian when I've said quite a few times that all I want is to be free to choose and would happily extend the same respect and courtesy to anyone else to live in whatever society they so desire as long as I can voluntarily live in the society I and others prefer.

You must have been fired up by either my argument with Chimp or my disagreement to your socialist article? I think it's an age thing, when you get a generation or two apart words tend to have different meanings and people seem to be on different planets.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #211 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 9:57pm
 
The freedom you want Vuk, is the freedom to live like they do in the movies. The freedom to condense human creativity down to the singularity MONEY.

The freedom I want is the freedom of a society that provides an environment where all babies can grow in equal freedom. A society where the necessities of education, healthcare, water, power, food and shelter are provided without hastle. An environment where people are free to BE, and find a niche that suits them, where they can pursue a creative life doing things that have REAL value. Rather than living as a cog in a shyte machine fulfilling no function other than making some toilet more money.

I'll tell you what we cannot afford. We cannot afford throwaway, fridges, washing machines, cars, skyscrapers, clothes, even smacking roads. I swear the smacking ROMANs built roads better than we do. We cannot afford the sheer ugliness of your consumer society.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #212 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:02pm
 
Do you ever stop to think where our incredible wealth came from? More than anything it's the legacy of the dead. Every hu from the first pair of upright walking hairless apes has contributed and we should all share it and stop squandering it.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #213 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:07pm
 
Quote:
all I want is to be free to choose and would happily extend the same respect and courtesy to anyone else to live in whatever society they so desire as long as I can voluntarily live in the society I and others prefer.


Capitalism is the most totalitarian society the world has ever known. Every scrap of anything has a price. People are even prevented from scavenging at the tip. Capitalists will one day soon start selling people tanks of 'fresh air'.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #214 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:57pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 9:05pm:
the ignored immorality of vuk11

there is no exploitation in vuk11's world




Not that I like the way you rant at times, I don't always disagree with what you are saying. If you post a pic like this I feel you should always juxtapose it with labour productivity. When you do it's obvious where the produce of that productivity ends up.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #215 - Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:57pm
 
Grey wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 9:57pm:
The freedom you want Vuk, is the freedom to live like they do in the movies. The freedom to condense human creativity down to the singularity MONEY.


What are you referring to, when you say"movie" freedom? I will obviously object and say no that isn't what I want, but you didn't specify.

The problem with peoples rabid hate for "money" is that its emotionally provoked and seems shallow to me. It's like everyone wants to be the most self righteous about emotionally charged issues, "money is the #1 problem! Down with money!". It's a nice sentiment but I find way too many people miss what exactly this accursed green note represents. It represents the labour/resource/energy/time cost of most actions human being take, it isn't putting a price on something, it's that everything already has a price and this merely represents it. Furthermore it represents subjective value when dealing with complete strangers, no prior knowledge is needed to understand what 7 billion people want/need but through their actions with their own productivity traded in the form of currency.


Quote:
The freedom I want is the freedom of a society that provides an environment where all babies can grow in equal freedom. A society where the necessities of education, healthcare, water, power, food and shelter are provided without hastle. An environment where people are free to BE, and find a niche that suits them, where they can pursue a creative life doing things that have REAL value. Rather than living as a cog in a shyte machine fulfilling no function other than making some toilet more money.

I'll tell you what we cannot afford. We cannot afford throwaway, fridges, washing machines, cars, skyscrapers, clothes, even smacking roads. I swear the smacking ROMANs built roads better than we do. We cannot afford the sheer ugliness of your consumer society.


We're literally at the very beginning of a conversation, it's like you're finally making the initial statements of your POV despite the last 15 pages of this thread. I see a hell of a lot of assumptions and statements and I wonder if you are willing to make a case, explain it, support it with evidence and then have that case held up to scrutiny.

Again it's always a nice sentiment saying things like "equal freedom" , "everyone deserves such and such" and "REAL value.....instead of unaffordable throwaway things", however again I see this self righteous sentiment that you know what real value is, (even though value is subjective to each individual, which is just one core disagreement where Anarchists propose a Labour theory of value) that you know what everyone deserves and worst of all that equality is somehow the greatest measure of freedom and happiness.

I wonder if we could have a discussion, about what you propose, what you have against free market capitalism, without emotionally grounded assumptions that people tend to use in replacement of an argument. The majority of people instead of debating tend to just throw things out like "this is what you want, this is what I want, what you propose is *insert adjective here*" and then......well i don't know what is supposed to come next? Instead of debate people make these assumptions and I see no purpose to them, are they supposed to sway people from their believes on emotional grounds instead of logic, evidence and rational discourse? Are they meant to just be outbursts of opinion with no intention of having that opinion held to scrutiny in rational discourse? I just don't know.

What I do know is that there is a lot of irrationality being thrown around through statements without any substance, people see the ills of the world and seem to lash out at things that are obvious, without fully understanding them.

For instance:

-governments control peoples lives = governments are bad
-business  fired me and now I can't get what I want = business is bad
-person couldn't afford to live and starved to death = money is bad.


Then the instant response is let's remove business, states, money and property. It's emotionally provoked but what logic is behind it? Why was the man forced to earn money? States force you to pay some sort of tax/fee no matter where you are living, you can't be free of them. Yet without a state there is no necessity to earn money, you can be self sufficient, you can live with others in a gift economy and best of all you can voluntarily trade with other human beings to improve your life and theirs, through co-operation.


We know the state is at it's core immoral, it's foundation is taxation through theft and law/order through violent coercion. But what about working and a business? The core is voluntary trade for mutually perceived benefit. What about money? A representation of subjective values, labour/energy/resource/time costs and scarcity of resources. I mean sure we can see ills in the world but do we really look at why? The reason Ancaps blame the state for literally 90% of problems is because we trace it back to the state, through logic, evidence and explanation. When I see people attack Capitalism all I see is emotionally charged statements and when I inquire it becomes really vague and really emotional.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #216 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 6:16am
 

Published on Mar 13, 2013

http://www.zazzle.com/gayriot?rf=2382...
Salt of the Earth (1954) is an American drama film written by Michael Wilson, directed by Herbert J. Biberman, and produced by Paul Jarrico. All had been blacklisted by the Hollywood establishment due to their alleged involvement in communist politics. The film is one of the first pictures to advance the feminist social and political point of view. Its plot centers on a long and difficult strike, based on the 1951 strike against the Empire Zinc Company in Grant County, New Mexico. In the film, the company is identified as "Delaware Zinc," and the setting is "Zinctown, New Mexico." The film shows how the miners, the company, and the police react during the strike. In neorealist style, the producers and director used actual miners and their families as actors in the film. The film was called subversive and blacklisted because the International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers sponsored it and many blacklisted Hollywood professionals helped produce it. The union had been expelled from the CIO in 1950 for its alleged communist-dominated leadership. Director Herbert Biberman was one of the Hollywood screenwriters and directors who refused to answer the House Committee on Un American Activities on questions of CPUSA affiliation in 1947. The Hollywood Ten were cited and convicted for contempt of Congress and jailed. Biberman was imprisoned in the Federal Correctional Institution at Texarkana for six months. After his release he directed this film.[3] Other participants who made the film and were blacklisted by the Hollywood studios include: Paul Jarrico, Will Geer, Rosaura Revueltas, and Michael Wilson.
The producers cast only five professional actors. The rest were locals from Grant County, New Mexico, or members of the International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers, Local 890, many of whom were part of the strike that inspired the plot. Juan Chacón, for example, was a real-life Union Local president. In the film he plays the protagonist, who has trouble dealing with women as equals. The director was reluctant to cast him at first, thinking he was too "gentle," but both Revueltas and his sister-in-law, Sonja Dahl Biberman, wife of Biberman's brother Edward, urged him to cast Chacón as Ramon.
The film was denounced by the United States House of Representatives for its communist sympathies, and the FBI investigated the film's financing. The American Legion called for a nation-wide boycott of the film. Film-processing labs were told not to work on Salt of the Earth and unionized projectionists were instructed not to show it. After its opening night in New York City, the film languished for 10 years because all but 12 theaters in the country refused to screen it. By one journalist's account: "During the course of production in New Mexico in 1953, the trade press denounced it as a subversive plot, anti-Communist vigilantes fired rifle shots at the set, the film's leading lady Rosaura Revueltas was deported to Mexico, and from time to time a small airplane buzzed noisily overhead....The film, edited in secret, was stored for safekeeping in an anonymous wooden shack in Los Angeles


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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #217 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 6:34am
 
Grey wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:07pm:
Quote:
all I want is to be free to choose and would happily extend the same respect and courtesy to anyone else to live in whatever society they so desire as long as I can voluntarily live in the society I and others prefer.


Capitalism is the most totalitarian society the world has ever known. Every scrap of anything has a price. People are even prevented from scavenging at the tip. Capitalists will one day soon start selling people tanks of 'fresh air'.


Is that so they can make a profit to pay "people" wages and turn the wheels of the economy, or does an economy run of "fresh air"?  Roll Eyes
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Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #218 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 6:43am
 
So if the state wasn't there, would the miners be better off?

Once upon a time they needn't have mined; they could've built a shack in the wilderness, lived off the land, grown vegetables. Once upon a time there was always virgin land to move to, no organised thuggery, actually that's not true, there were always exploiters but everything is different now.  Now we are many and they are few.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #219 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 6:55am
 
???
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #220 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:03am
 
Capitalism: A Love Story examines the impact of corporate dominance on the everyday lives of Americans (and by default, the rest of the world). The film moves from Middle America, to the halls of power in Washington, to the global financial epicenter in Manhattan. With both humor and outrage, the film explores the question: What is the price that America pays for its love of capitalism? Families pay the price with their jobs, their homes and their savings. Moore goes into the homes of ordinary people whose lives have been turned upside down; and he goes looking for explanations in Washington, DC and elsewhere. What he finds are the all-too-familiar symptoms of a love affair gone astray: lies, abuse, betrayal...and 14,000 jobs being lost every day. Capitalism: A Love Story also presents what a more hopeful future could look like. Who are we and why do we behave the way that we do? Written by Overture Films.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #221 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:10am
 
Does that indicate that there is no place in a civilised society for growth, advancement, improvement, invention, etc. Where indeed would we be today if our only claim to fame was stagnation? I suppose we'd be like one those societies who took 35,000 years to produce a stick?
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #222 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:19am
 
Quote:
Is that so they can make a profit to pay "people" wages and turn the wheels of the economy, or does an economy run of "fresh air"?



'Profit' is not the sum of wages. Money is not the prime motivation for human creativity. The 'natural world' has its faults, but it runs very well on fresh air and is infinitely more beautiful and complex than your 'economy'. Economy is a word that describes the environment of money, what makes it ugly is the lack of the balance that is shown in nature. To show more profit the exploiter makes the lives of the exploited more mean and miserable. Paradoxically they end up more mean and miserable themselves. Profit is just the manifestation of greed.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #223 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:28am
 
Grey wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:19am:
Quote:
Is that so they can make a profit to pay "people" wages and turn the wheels of the economy, or does an economy run of "fresh air"?



'Profit' is not the sum of wages. Money is not the prime motivation for human creativity. The 'natural world' has its faults, but it runs very well on fresh air and is infinitely more beautiful and complex than your 'economy'. Economy is a word that describes the environment of money, what makes it ugly is the lack of the balance that is shown in nature. To show more profit the exploiter makes the lives of the exploited more mean and miserable. Paradoxically they end up more mean and miserable themselves. Profit is just the manifestation of greed.



Ah.....what we need is utopia........'wouldn't that be nice'.......we could all live in a perfect world........and the wheel wouldn't have been invented.....  Grin Grin Grin

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #224 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:33am
 
http://www.greatdreams.com/political/1930-bankruptcy.htm

BANKRUPTCYS OF MAJOR COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD

UNITED STATES, BRITAIN, FRANCE, GERMANY, ITALY, SPAIN, PORTUGAL

TAXPAYERS STILL PAYING FOR USA’S ‘BANKRUPTCY’ IN 1930

What you are about to read is America’s best-kept secret.

From 1928 to 1932, there were five years of “Geneva Conventions.” The free nations of the world met in Geneva, Switzerland for five continuous years to set up what would be the “bankrupt policy” of all the participating nations.

In 1930, the United States, Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal and other countries all declared bankruptcy.

It was the result of the stock market crash of 1929. The Great Depression triggered the bankruptcies.

However, if you try to look up the 1930 volume containing the minutes of what happened, you probably will not find it. This volume has been pulled out of circulation, or is hidden in the library and is difficult to locate.

This volume contains the evidence of the bankruptcy.

Going into 1932, the bankrupt nations stopped meeting in Geneva.

In 1932, Franklin Roosevelt came into power as President of the United States.

Roosevelt’s job was to put into place and administer the bankruptcy that had been declared two years earlier.

America’s “Corporate Government” needed a key Supreme Court decision to implement the bankruptcy plan.

The “corporate” United States government had to have a legal case on the books to set the stage for recognizing, implementing and supporting the bankruptcy.

The bankruptcy started in 1930-31.

The bankruptcy became “official” when Roosevelt came into office, although the public was not aware of the “declaration of bankruptcy” in Geneva by the United States.

Roosevelt was sworn in as President in January 1933. He started right away on the bankruptcy plan with what is historically known as “The Banking Holiday” – when the banks closed for a few “holidays” as millions of customers were pulling their money out of the banks.

Roosevelt proceeded in pulling in gold coin to get the gold out of circulation.

Roosevelt then began to “stack” the Supreme Court with close associates who would vote on one Supreme Court case to support the bankruptcy plan.

There was bitter resistance to Roosevelt’s “stacking the court” with his most trusted legal advisers.

Some of the Justices on the Supreme Court tried to warn the nation that Roosevelt was tampering with the law and with the courts.

Roosevelt was trying to see to it that prior decisions of the court were overturned.

Roosevelt was trying to bring in a new order, a new procedure for the law of the land.

A bankruptcy case was needed on the books to legitimize the fact that the “Corporate U.S.” had already declared bankruptcy.

The “Corporate U.S.” had to be created to replace the Constitutionally created United States of America by our founding fathers and the original 13 colonies after the American Revolution in 1776.

The massive restructuting of American government was in response to a world-wide economic depression.

The bankers who held the debt for the United States and other countries told these nations’ leaders:

“You can do it either of two ways. The easy way or the hard way. You just accept the bankruptcy and we’ll let you out of the depression. If you don’t, you’re on your own.”

The bankers, led by the Rothschilds in Europe and the Rockefellers in America, by way of the U.S. Federal Reserve bankers literally had the bankrupt nations by the throat.

These bankrupt nations agreed that over a period of several years they would pass the necessary laws for the implementation of the bankruptcy in favor of the international bankers.

America: A Nation of Debtors and Creditors

The plan developed by President Roosevelt in the 1930s became America’s “corporate public policy.”

It is known as the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC).

Each State in the U.S. unwittingly adopted the Code, not knowing that it compelled every taxpayer to pay off the nation’s bankruptcy debt declared in 1930 and implemented by President Roosevelt.

The Uniform Commercial Code became the law of the land.
The Code involves debtors and creditors.
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