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Poll Poll
Question: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Yes, ofcause.    
  18 (72.0%)
No, it doesnt    
  7 (28.0%)




Total votes: 25
« Created by: Pantheon on: Oct 29th, 2013 at 9:31am »

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Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? (Read 59404 times)
Grey
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #225 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:43am
 
viewpoint wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:28am:
Grey wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:19am:
Quote:
Is that so they can make a profit to pay "people" wages and turn the wheels of the economy, or does an economy run of "fresh air"?



'Profit' is not the sum of wages. Money is not the prime motivation for human creativity. The 'natural world' has its faults, but it runs very well on fresh air and is infinitely more beautiful and complex than your 'economy'. Economy is a word that describes the environment of money, what makes it ugly is the lack of the balance that is shown in nature. To show more profit the exploiter makes the lives of the exploited more mean and miserable. Paradoxically they end up more mean and miserable themselves. Profit is just the manifestation of greed.



Ah.....what we need is utopia........'wouldn't that be nice'.......we could all live in a perfect world........and the wheel wouldn't have been invented.....  Grin Grin Grin




Yeah that Ugg, the inventor of the wheel, how much did he make again?
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #226 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:44am
 
http://www.greatdreams.com/political/1930-bankruptcy.htm

BANKRUPTCYS OF MAJOR COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD

UNITED STATES, BRITAIN, FRANCE, GERMANY, ITALY, SPAIN, PORTUGAL

TAXPAYERS STILL PAYING FOR USA’S ‘BANKRUPTCY’ IN 1930

What you are about to read is America’s best-kept secret.

From 1928 to 1932, there were five years of “Geneva Conventions.” The free nations of the world met in Geneva, Switzerland for five continuous years to set up what would be the “bankrupt policy” of all the participating nations.

In 1930, the United States, Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal and other countries all declared bankruptcy.

It was the result of the stock market crash of 1929. The Great Depression triggered the bankruptcies.

However, if you try to look up the 1930 volume containing the minutes of what happened, you probably will not find it. This volume has been pulled out of circulation, or is hidden in the library and is difficult to locate.

This volume contains the evidence of the bankruptcy.

Going into 1932, the bankrupt nations stopped meeting in Geneva.

In 1932, Franklin Roosevelt came into power as President of the United States.

Roosevelt’s job was to put into place and administer the bankruptcy that had been declared two years earlier.

America’s “Corporate Government” needed a key Supreme Court decision to implement the bankruptcy plan.

The “corporate” United States government had to have a legal case on the books to set the stage for recognizing, implementing and supporting the bankruptcy.

The bankruptcy started in 1930-31.

The bankruptcy became “official” when Roosevelt came into office, although the public was not aware of the “declaration of bankruptcy” in Geneva by the United States.

Roosevelt was sworn in as President in January 1933. He started right away on the bankruptcy plan with what is historically known as “The Banking Holiday” – when the banks closed for a few “holidays” as millions of customers were pulling their money out of the banks.

Roosevelt proceeded in pulling in gold coin to get the gold out of circulation.

Roosevelt then began to “stack” the Supreme Court with close associates who would vote on one Supreme Court case to support the bankruptcy plan.

There was bitter resistance to Roosevelt’s “stacking the court” with his most trusted legal advisers.

Some of the Justices on the Supreme Court tried to warn the nation that Roosevelt was tampering with the law and with the courts.

Roosevelt was trying to see to it that prior decisions of the court were overturned.

Roosevelt was trying to bring in a new order, a new procedure for the law of the land.

A bankruptcy case was needed on the books to legitimize the fact that the “Corporate U.S.” had already declared bankruptcy.

The “Corporate U.S.” had to be created to replace the Constitutionally created United States of America by our founding fathers and the original 13 colonies after the American Revolution in 1776.

The massive restructuting of American government was in response to a world-wide economic depression.

The bankers who held the debt for the United States and other countries told these nations’ leaders:

“You can do it either of two ways. The easy way or the hard way. You just accept the bankruptcy and we’ll let you out of the depression. If you don’t, you’re on your own.”

The bankers, led by the Rothschilds in Europe and the Rockefellers in America, by way of the U.S. Federal Reserve bankers literally had the bankrupt nations by the throat.

These bankrupt nations agreed that over a period of several years they would pass the necessary laws for the implementation of the bankruptcy in favor of the international bankers.

America: A Nation of Debtors and Creditors

The plan developed by President Roosevelt in the 1930s became America’s “corporate public policy.”

It is known as the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC).

Each State in the U.S. unwittingly adopted the Code, not knowing that it compelled every taxpayer to pay off the nation’s bankruptcy debt declared in 1930 and implemented by President Roosevelt.

The Uniform Commercial Code became the law of the land.
The Code involves debtors and creditors.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #227 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 8:45am
 
Grey wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:43am:
viewpoint wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:28am:
Grey wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 7:19am:
Quote:
Is that so they can make a profit to pay "people" wages and turn the wheels of the economy, or does an economy run of "fresh air"?



'Profit' is not the sum of wages. Money is not the prime motivation for human creativity. The 'natural world' has its faults, but it runs very well on fresh air and is infinitely more beautiful and complex than your 'economy'. Economy is a word that describes the environment of money, what makes it ugly is the lack of the balance that is shown in nature. To show more profit the exploiter makes the lives of the exploited more mean and miserable. Paradoxically they end up more mean and miserable themselves. Profit is just the manifestation of greed.



Ah.....what we need is utopia........'wouldn't that be nice'.......we could all live in a perfect world........and the wheel wouldn't have been invented.....  Grin Grin Grin




Yeah that Ugg, the inventor of the wheel, how much did he make again?


Yes.....I guess that's the price we pay for progress......Ford, Holden, Toyota etc......and yes jobs and wages.......where would we be without them......maybe Australia will find out soon.....then we can all live in blissful ignorance.........and walk everywhere... Roll Eyes
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Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #228 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 9:52am
 
Give it two minutes, just two, to see if anything interesting is being said. You don't have to convert for the knowledge to be useful.

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #229 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:59am
 
How the Economy of Anarchist Spain Really Worked

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2009/11/how_the_economy.html


Quote:
Suppose that there were a standard capitalist economy in which a class of wealthy capitalists owned the means of production and hired the rest of the population as wage laborers. Through extraordinary effort, the workers in each factory save enough money to buy out their employers. The capitalists' shares of stock change hands, so that the workers of each firm now own and control their workplace. Question: Is this still a "capitalist society"? Of course; there is still private property in the means of production, it simply has different owners than before. The economy functions the same as it always did: the workers at each firm do their best to enrich themselves by selling desired products to consumers; there is inequality due to both ability and luck; firms compete for customers. Nothing changes but the recipient of the dividends.


Quote:
This simple thought experiment reveals the dilemma of the anarcho-socialist. If the workers seize control of their plants and run them as they wish, capitalism remains. The only way to suppress what socialists most despise about capitalism - greed, inequality, and competition - is to force the worker-owners to do something they are unlikely to do voluntarily. To do so requires a state, an organization with sufficient firepower to impose unselfishness, equality, and coordination upon recalcitrant workers. One can call the state a council, a committee, a union, or by any other euphemism, but the simple truth remains: socialism requires a state.


Quote:
An overwhelming body of evidence from a wide variety of sources confirms that when the workers really controlled their factories, capitalism merely changed it's form; it did not cease to exist....................................The works councils did not in practice know what to do with the means of production and lacked a plan for the whole industry; as far as the market was concerned, the decree had changed none of the basic capitalist defects 'except that whereas before it was the owners who competed amongst themselves it is now the workers.'"


Quote:
Andrade tells Fraser a striking story about the funeral of a POUM militant. "[T]he CNT undertakers' union presented the POUM with its bill. The younger POUM militants took the bill to Andrade in amazement. He called in the undertakers' representatives. '"What's this? You want to collect a bill for your services while men are dying at the front, eh?" I looked at the bill. "Moreover, you've raised your prices, this is very expensive." "Yes," the man agreed, "we want to make improvements - " I refused to pay and when, later, two members of the union's committee turned up to press their case, we threw them out. But the example made me reflect on a particular working-class attitude to the revolution.'"[135]


Quote:
Inequality existed within collectives as well as between them................"But the 'single' wage could not be introduced in his plant because it was not made general throughout the industry. Women in the factory continued to receive wages between 15 per cent and 20 per cent lower than men, and manual workers less than technicians."


Quote:
The Anarchist military was the backbone of a new monopoly on the means of coercion which was a government in everything but name. It then became possible to use the peasantry like cattle, to make them work, feed them their subsistence, and seize the "surplus." Bolloten approvingly quotes Kaminsky's account of Alcora....


Quote:
Mariano Franco came from the front to hold a meeting, saying that militiamen were threatening to take the livestock of all those who remained outside the collective. As in Mas de las Matas, all privately owned stocks of food had to be turned it."


Quote:
having to hand over all the produce to 'the pile' and to get nothing except his rations in return.


Quote:
...the militia columns requisitioned livestock from the collective, issuing vouchers in return. Having been appointed livestock delegate, he went on a couple of occasions to Caspe to try to 'cash in' the vouchers unsuccessfully. As elsewhere, the abolition of money soon led to the 'coining' of local money - a task the blacksmith carried out by punching holes in tin disks until paper notes could be printed. The 'money' - 1.50 pesetas a day - was distributed, as the local schoolmaster recalled, to collectivists to spend on their 'vices' - 'the latter being anything superfluous to the basic requirements of keeping alive.'"[145] (For comparison, one farmer states that pre-war he earned 250 pesetas per month.)
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #230 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 2:28pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 8:51pm:


corporatism is not capitalism, and yet you blame capitalism and not corporatism


Quote:
Capitalism: A Love Story examines the impact of corporate dominance on the everyday lives of Americans (and by default, the rest of the world). The film moves from Middle America, to the halls of power in Washington, to the global financial epicenter in Manhattan. With both humor and outrage, the film explores the question: What is the price that America pays for its love of capitalism? Families pay the price with their jobs, their homes and their savings. Moore goes into the homes of ordinary people whose lives have been turned upside down; and he goes looking for explanations in Washington, DC and elsewhere. What he finds are the all-too-familiar symptoms of a love affair gone astray: lies, abuse, betrayal...and 14,000 jobs being lost every day. Capitalism: A Love Story also presents what a more hopeful future could look like. Who are we and why do we behave the way that we do? Written by Overture Films.


Once again the US nor any western state has capitalism its been replace by corporatism,

Corporatism was the system originated almost a century ago by the American “Progressives,” and later by Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany, and Roosevelt in the U.S. (see his 1933 National Recovery Act, struck down by the Supreme Court in 1935 as unconstitutional because it was so corporatist). Corporatism goes hand-in-hand with statism, with abandonment of the fully free economy and adoption of the welfare-warfare state. Yet while many oppose cronyism, corporate welfare, and bailouts, they also endorse handouts to almost everyone else, including to the politically-valuable cronies so easily found among today’s labor union leaders, “green” companies, under-water homeowners, over-indebted college students, and war-happy munitions makers.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #231 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 3:27pm
 
Bump!

You appear to have missed this one Ahovking.  Care to answer my points?  Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin

|dev|null wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 12:52pm:
Pantheon wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 7:27pm:
Watch the video it explains the relationship between employers and employees and how both sides are equal until union/ big business come in and influence government until one sides lose (believe it or not if one side lose both sides loses)


The video assumes that employers are always fair and honest in their dealings with workers.  It fails to address what happens when they aren't.  That is why regulations and unions exist - to protect the workers from exploitative employers.  That is why regulation and Unions grew up, they were there because of a perceived need.  Cause and effect.  They didn't spring up out of no where!

Quote:
when Government intervention things always get worst. We should leave it up to the employers and employees and if you like unions to deal with their own issues.


Except then you get employers employing Company Goons to terrorise their work force.  You didn't it couldn't happen?  It has and does happen.  They're often called "lawyers" nowadays...   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin

Quote:
And then be sacked.  Is that fair as well?  Unfair Dismissal has been largely removed as means of complaint against a sacking.  Looks to me like the worker is being squeezed by everybody over everything.


Is it fair for employees to be sacked because they are unwilling to worker unusually long hours? , yes its fair, its mean and not nice but who knows maybe the small business is struggling to make money or pay its bills on time and needs more work time done without pay,
[/quite]

How can it be "fair" when you admit that it is "mean" and "not nice"?  Essentially you've just contradicted yourself.  The Employee and the Employer are not equal.  The Employer it seems can demand extra, unpaid labour from the Employee and threaten them with the sack, with no recourse if they refuse.  Yet, if an Employee was to demand that they work fewer hours for the same amount of pay, the Employer could refuse and the Employee can't sack the Employer, now can they?   The Employer holds the whip hand and treats all Employees as "wage slaves".  According to you, that isn't exploitation?  You're using an odd definition then!   Angry Angry Angry Angry

Quote:
Why is it fair to force a business to do something it might not even be afforded?


Why is it fair to effectively force employees to work for no pay?

Quote:
Quote:
They still do.   The problem is the workers yet again end up being shafted with their entitlements being often lost because the system believers shareholders' rights take priority over workers' rights


This can be explained by the video.. thank your big business and government..


Neither are mine.  Both are aspects of the capitalism you extoll.  Appears you don't even understand what "exploitation" means!   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #232 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 3:31pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:59am:
How the Economy of Anarchist Spain Really Worked

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2009/11/how_the_economy.html



Caplan can have all his "simple thought experiments" but the fact is that sixty years later the teenagers of Anarchist Spain still carried the flame, even after the oppression of franco who suppressed even their language. Ordinary people, not fanatics, but they still remember Anarchist Spain as the best of times.

Fact is that earlier editions of Brittanica (say around 1974) carried reports from American Capitalist minded journalists who openly admitted having gone to Spain to scoff. But they discovered to their amazement that productivity in the moneyless society had actually increased. While latter editions after the American take over said only that such reports had been greatly exaggerated.

Fact that even an upper middleclass Englishmen like Eric Blair, (George Orwell)  wrote - "There was much in this that I did not understand, in some
ways I did not not even like it, but I recognized it immediately as a state of
affairs worth fighting for....  Together with all this there was something of the evil atmosphere of war.  The
town had a gaunt untidy look,  roads and buildings were in poor repair, the
streets at night were dimly lit for fear of air-raids, the shops were mostly
shabby and half-empty.  Meat was scarce and milk practically unobtainable,
there was a shortage of coal, sugar and petrol, and a really serious shortage
of bread.  Even at this period the bread-queues were often hundreds of yards
long.  Yet so far as one could judge the people were contented and hopeful.
There was no unemployment, and the price of living was still extremely low.
Above all, there was a belief in the revolution and the future, a feeling of having suddenly emerged into an era of equality and freedom. Human beings were trying to behave as human beings and not as cogs in the
capitalist machine.  In the barbers' shops were Anarchist notices  solemnly explaining that barbers were no longer slaves.
In the streets were coloured posters appealing to prostitutes to stop being prostitutes."
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #233 - Nov 4th, 2013 at 4:29pm
 
So do you dispute what was said in the article or are those consequences irrelevant?
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #234 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 3:22am
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 4:29pm:
So do you dispute what was said in the article or are those consequences irrelevant?


Both. The agenda driven dreamings of Caplan and cherry picking incidents do not undermine the actual success of Anarchism, even in Spain where the interference of Stalin and the Franco/fascist Putsch quickly led to a state of absolute confusion.

Read what the quoted Daniel Guerin says of the Machnovitchna.


http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/daniel-guerin-anarchism-from-theory-to-pr...

But the past is of no consequence to the future other than as reference to be learned from. Now that Capitalism has reached its absurd apogee we should use the little time left to build more solid foundations for the flow of power to be reversed.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #235 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 10:15am
 
Grey wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 3:22am:
Both. The agenda driven dreamings of Caplan and cherry picking incidents do not undermine the actual success of Anarchism, even in Spain where the interference of Stalin and the Franco/fascist Putsch quickly led to a state of absolute confusion.



Lol I like that, the man seeks to prove using logic and evidence that it was still capitalism and had a controlling agency of violence and coercion that was literally a state just without the name government, and you say he has an agenda and is cherry picking to undermine Anarchism. More like proving that it was a form of state socialism with militia and some sort of council running peoples lives whether they wanted it or not.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #236 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:28pm
 
Quote:
The video assumes that employers are always fair and honest in their dealings with workers.  It fails to address what happens when they aren't.  That is why regulations and unions exist - to protect the workers from exploitative employers.  That is why regulation and Unions grew up, they were there because of a perceived need.  Cause and effect.  They didn't spring up out of no where!


one: If employers aren't always fair and honest in their dealings with workers than the workers should walk out, one again no one is holding a gun to their heads,

Two: plus nothing is wrong with Unions,

three: Government regulation adversely affects small business. While the finding may be intuitively obvious (to those not in government), World Bank economists recently showed that entrepreneurs create fewer new businesses in countries with regulations that make starting companies more difficult. Reducing regulation also enhances the performance of small companies. For instance, researchers found that efforts to simplify the new business formation process in Mexico boosted small business employment by nearly 3 percent.

http://smallbiztrends.com/2011/01/small-business%E2%80%99s-problem-with-government-regulation.html

Quote:
Except then you get employers employing Company Goons to terrorise their work force.  You didn't it couldn't happen?  It has and does happen.  They're often called "lawyers" nowadays...


Sounds like Unions (How were the unions able to win these strikes, even though unions have been declining in numbers and popularity since the end of World War II? The answer is simple: in both cases, management hired replacement workers and tried to keep producing. In both cases, systematic violence was employed against the product and against the replacement workers.)

anyway employers have the same right as employees, If one feels unfairly treated one should be able to bring it to court. We live in a democracy.

Quote:
How can it be "fair" when you admit that it is "mean" and "not nice"?  Essentially you've just contradicted yourself.  The Employee and the Employer are not equal.  The Employer it seems can demand extra, unpaid labour from the Employee and threaten them with the sack, with no recourse if they refuse.  Yet, if an Employee was to demand that they work fewer hours for the same amount of pay, the Employer could refuse and the Employee can't sack the Employer, now can they?   The Employer holds the whip hand and treats all Employees as "wage slaves".  According to you, that isn't exploitation?  You're using an odd definition then! 


I disagree, while the can demand extra (unpaid labour) so can the emplyee (pay rise).  And both partys can refuse each other demind.

If the emplyee works out or gets the boot, both partys lose, while the emplyee loses a job the emplyer lose a hard working emplyee resulting in less productivity/production .

Seems equal to me.
 
Quote:
Why is it fair to effectively force employees to work for no pay?


we both agree its not, however why is it fair to force a business to do something it might not even be afforded?

Quote:
Neither are mine.  Both are aspects of the capitalism you extoll.  Appears you don't even understand what "exploitation" means!


you seem to of mistaken capitalism with Corporatism.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #237 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:45pm
 
Quote:
you seem to of mistaken capitalism with Corporatism.


There is no mistake, one is directly responsible for the other. The words are virtually synonymous.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #238 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 1:08pm
 
I can't help but wonder how you've managed to exist Grey for as long as you have. You don't appear to agree with the concept of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay, so one has to assume that you consider working for payment /wages is beneath you, therefore how on earth have you managed to feed your family and put a roof over their heads?

You seem to consider that all employers are extortionists who drain their poor employees for little or no reward, their workers having no choice in the matter at all.

Somehow it doesn't seem logical.

People work because they have to, they get paid for their work, so where is the exploitation?



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Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #239 - Nov 5th, 2013 at 1:11pm
 
Grey wrote on Nov 5th, 2013 at 12:45pm:
Quote:
you seem to of mistaken capitalism with Corporatism.


There is no mistake, one is directly responsible for the other. The words are virtually synonymous.


Capitalism:Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of individual rights. Politically, it is the system of laissez-faire (freedom). Legally it is a system of objective laws (rule of law as opposed to rule of man). Economically, when such freedom is applied to the sphere of production its’ result is the free-market. (may i add stickily no subsidies, special favors, monopolies and franchises, tax breaks, or bailouts)

Corporatism: enables the government unjustly ruling business and government, in turn, improperly controlled by business for business’s exclusive benefit (whether by subsidies, special favors, monopolies and franchises, tax breaks, or bailouts), even as it nominally still permits private property holdings (sometimes know as, “cronyism” or “fascism”).

Virtually synonymous you say  Roll Eyes
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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