Australian Politics Forum - Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Grey

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #255 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 4:56pm

viewpoint wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 1:08pm:

I can't help but wonder how you've managed to exist Grey for as long as you have. You don't appear to agree with the concept of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay

Now where did I give you that idea Grin

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so one has to assume that you consider working for payment /wages is beneath you, therefore how on earth have you managed to feed your family and put a roof over their heads?

As the Rasta's put it, ' don't take from what another person do is what i would say'. I work, I charge what I think is fair, it gives me a fair income, I could charge more, but I'm probably better off than most. I could earn more working for a corp or a miner, but my life is richer doing what I do.

As a matter of fact before taking it easy I even supplied work; but I didn't profit from others.

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You seem to consider that all employers are extortionists who drain their poor employees for little or no reward, their workers having no choice in the matter at all.

Not all but most.

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Somehow it doesn't seem logical.

That's what I reckon Grin

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People work because they have to, they get paid for their work, so where is the exploitation?

If you employ somebody for $10 an hour, and get paid $20 an hour for the work they have done, I'd call it theft, you call it a system.

Similarly if you buy something for what the maker considers a fair price and sell it for more than twice what you paid, I call that a racket.

Now you'll probably say things about distribution and availability and shop costs and fair enough. But I know what skills and labour go into making a chair, (for example) and what skills and labour go into taking it off a truck and putting it on a showroom floor. When the latter charge more than the chair cost them they are not doing a fair days work for a fair days pay, they're ripping people off.

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« Last Edit: Nov 5^th, 2013 at 5:07pm by Grey »

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Innocent bystander Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4220 Gender:	Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? Reply #256 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 5:06pm Capitalism sucks theres no two ways about it, the only reason it still persists though is because it sucks less than all of the other ism's
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Vuk11

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #257 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 5:09pm

Grey wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 4:56pm:

If you employ somebody for $10 an hour, and get paid $20 an hour for the work they have done, I'd call it theft, you call it a system.

Similarly if you buy something for what the maker considers a fair price and sell it for more than twice what you paid, I call that a racket.

Now you'll probably say things about distribution and availability and shop costs and fair enough. But I know what skills and labour go into making a chair, (for example) and what skills and labour go into taking it off a trunk and putting it on a showroom floor. When the latter charge more than the chair cost them they are not doing a fair days work for a fair days pay, they're ripping people off.

This is the crux of the issue, you admit that there are other costs besides what the labourer does, for example in my pizza analogy the pizza maker didn't pay for the store/equipment/marketing/managing/business plan/negotiations etc, however this where you turn 100% subjective. You say that in your view what a employer charges is way more than what their contribution is worth, however that's totally and utterly irrelevant, it's not up to what you think something is worth if an employee is willing to accept terms of work and then if a customer is willing to accept terms of purchase.

If someone buys a car for $15k, the owner might think it worth $10k because he bought it for that much and seeks to profit $5k, maybe the buyer wants the car so bad for work that they view the car is worth $15k because it will enable them to get to this new jobs, if you call a mechanic friend up maybe one says it's only worth 10k = rip off and another says it's worth 18k so you are getting a bargain. It's all subjective and that's the entire point of voluntarism, it only matters to the people engaging in the exchange as there is no objective real "labour theory of value" as socialists put it.

This is where people let their feelings and their opinions cloud logic and reason, which is why I say most objections to free market capitalism/property rights come from an emotional base of what they think is "fair" or what they think people "deserve".

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #258 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 6:00pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 5:06pm:

Capitalism sucks theres no two ways about it, the only reason it still persists though is because it sucks less than all of the other ism's Wink

Correct.

Capitalism allows the least of us to live like kings and the landed gentry of old.

Even the humblest of workers can aspire to owning their own home, a car in the driveway, a stocked fridge, tv ~ etc.

But capitalism always needs to be carefully controlled so that it doesn't stop being a servant to ones ambitions instead of the reason for ones poverty and disadvantage.

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Innocent bystander

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #259 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 6:15pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 6:00pm:

Innocent bystander wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 5:06pm:

Capitalism sucks theres no two ways about it, the only reason it still persists though is because it sucks less than all of the other ism's Wink

Correct.

Capitalism allows the least of us to live like kings and the landed gentry of old.

Even the humblest of workers can aspire to owning their own home, a car in the driveway, a stocked fridge, tv ~ etc.

But capitalism always needs to be carefully controlled so that it doesn't stop being a servant to ones ambitions instead of the reason for ones poverty and disadvantage.

Yep the trouble is though that the f#ckin dumb arse welfare shyte that are picking up their welfare check care of the tax payer really think that hey'd be better of under some sort of North Korean commie arrangement, such is their f#ckwittery, how can any dole bludging front bottom really believe that Australias centrelink isn't there best option?

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Chimp_Logic Gold Member Offline πολιτικός Posts: 4826 Mawson Base Gender:	Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? Reply #260 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 6:32pm Capitalism, the exploitation of slaves by capital controllers It is common to refer to slaves as honest powerless workers or employees. Capital controllers are normally referred to as fascists and tyrannical monster freaks
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Vuk11 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1797 QLD Gender:	Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? Reply #261 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 7:00pm Build a house and rent it to someone? "You're a capitalist controller fascist!" Provide quality goods, at low prices, with the best business idea of the century? "You're a capitalist controller fascist that exploits people!"
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Lord Herbert

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #262 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 7:03pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 6:15pm:

Yep the trouble is though that the f#ckin dumb arse welfare shyte that are picking up their welfare check care of the tax payer really think that hey'd be better of under some sort of North Korean commie arrangement, such is their f#ckwittery, how can any dole bludging front bottom really believe that Australias centrelink isn't there best option?

To be honest, I do believe in a humanitarian capitalist system which cares for those who suffer from some sort of mental, physical, or circumstantial disadvantage and handicap.

We have a fairly good balance in Australia between capitalism and socialism.

Where capitalism fails with certain people, the socialism provides the free support systems that supply a dole, and supplementary payments for rent, free doctors, hospitals, concession public transport, etc etc.

We're very lucky.

WAY more lucky than the ordinary Americans.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #263 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 7:09pm

China = State run pseudo capitalism
USA = Corporately run pseudo capitalism

Both countries are fascist and tyrannical is nature.

Capitalism and democracy are morally incompatible conceptual frameworks

that is precisely why the propaganda system and control of information is so critical in these tyrannical totalitarian fascist regimes.

Notice how BOTH nations have firm control of the media and the flow of information in the public realm.

When you witness clown freaks in here trying to defend their beloved fascist capitalist immorality you will notice how indoctrinated and subservient they are to the power structures that enslave them

For them a few dimes and an annual holiday and they will sell their souls to the jails of their enslavement

And of course they WANT everybody else LOCKED UP as well

These frightened little immoralised rabbits.

The stench of fear emanating from their pathetic carcasses wafts through this thread like the mists of Hades

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Vuk11

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #264 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 7:16pm

Disillusional, please tell me how wanting to completely remove the current system of coercion is somehow supporting it?

Please tell me how we want people locked up?
Do you have nothing better to do right now than just type lies over and over and post pictures of monkeys....?

Shhhh Chimp, no more tears only dreams now.

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? Reply #265 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 7:32pm Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 7:09pm: The stench of fear emanating from their pathetic carcasses wafts through this thread like the mists of Hades[/font] You're a poet! Chimp ~ you're giving me a laugh as I sit up here in the peanut gallery.
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #266 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 9:40pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 7:03pm:

Innocent bystander wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 6:15pm:

Yep the trouble is though that the f#ckin dumb arse welfare shyte that are picking up their welfare check care of the tax payer really think that hey'd be better of under some sort of North Korean commie arrangement, such is their f#ckwittery, how can any dole bludging front bottom really believe that Australias centrelink isn't there best option?

To be honest, I do believe in a humanitarian capitalist system which cares for those who suffer from some sort of mental, physical, or circumstantial disadvantage and handicap.

...as long as there is a profit to be made, and someone getting richer, and MANY getting poorer

So you end up with a Health system like the USA which spends the most PER CAPITA on health (about $8,500 per capita per annum) and yet has a health system that is ranked 47th in the world and is NOT UNIVERSAL with about 53 million Americans without health cover or inadequate cover.

the most common reason for people going bankrupt in the USA is the failure to meet health bills - especially in their later years.

Australia for example spends about $3,500 per capita per annum on Health and has a health system that is Universal and is consistently ranked in the top 5 in the world.

Let me give you an example of what happens when you privatise/corporatize a public Hospital in the USA.

Prior to privatisation, a typical Hospital would spend about 3% of its total budget on NON-MEDICAL type expenses and costs. Once privatised, the proportion of the budget spent on NON-MEDICAL items rises to about 25% or more. The new costs include, marketing, advertising, paying bonuses to non medical CEOs, fancy buildings, lobbying expenses for congressional favours, dividends, etc etc

At the same time, the number of patients is reduced because only those who can pay themselves or have adequate health insurance are allowed in the door

This is how your beloved corporatized capitalist system works

And they call this EFFICIENCY - lol

I hope you understand now Mr Herbert why capitalism and humanitarianism are morally incompatible concepts.

You can use all the spin, all the jargon, all the lies you want Mr Herbert, in the end you will be publically embarrassed and shamed should you continue defending Corporatism and capitalism, the most immoral, inefficient, fascist, self-destructive, inherently unstable and environmentally disruptive ideologies devised by humans since the Kenyan hominids went walk about.

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Grey

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #267 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 10:07pm

Quote:

This is the crux of the issue, you admit that there are other costs besides what the labourer does, for example in my pizza analogy the pizza maker didn't pay for the store/equipment/marketing/managing/business plan/negotiations etc, however this where you turn 100% subjective. You say that in your view what a employer charges is way more than what their contribution is worth, however that's totally and utterly irrelevant, it's not up to what you think something is worth if an employee is willing to accept terms of work and then if a customer is willing to accept terms of purchase.

Damn right it's the crux of the issue. It's irelevant to you how much people are ripped off, that's what makes you the capitalist exploiting greedy cunning little shyte.

Anarchists have what are called ethics. We don't want to rip people off or be ripped off. This is not subjective as it happens, we hold the same view whether or not there's personal involvement. In your ethical vacuum it makes just as much sense to steal or take by force.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Vuk11

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #268 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 10:36pm

Grey wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 10:07pm:

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This is the crux of the issue, you admit that there are other costs besides what the labourer does, for example in my pizza analogy the pizza maker didn't pay for the store/equipment/marketing/managing/business plan/negotiations etc, however this where you turn 100% subjective. You say that in your view what a employer charges is way more than what their contribution is worth, however that's totally and utterly irrelevant, it's not up to what you think something is worth if an employee is willing to accept terms of work and then if a customer is willing to accept terms of purchase.

Damn right it's the crux of the issue. It's irelevant to you how much people are ripped off, that's what makes you the capitalist exploiting greedy cunning little shyte.

Anarchists have what are called ethics. We don't want to rip people off or be ripped off. This is not subjective as it happens, we hold the same view whether or not there's personal involvement. In your ethical vacuum it makes just as much sense to steal or take by force.

Ethical vacuum?
You call the non-initiation of force the non-aggression principle an ethical vacuum? You call respecting peoples rights to self ownership, the ownership of their actions and the effects of those actions an ethical vacuum? Why? Because I advocate free choice and voluntary interaction free from violent coercion?

Yeah man ethical vacuum, I'm not the one wanting to abolish people's property. Maybe you can actually look deeper into some logical ethics as opposed to that irrational emotional kind, I'd recommend "universally preferable behavior: A rational proof of secular ethics".

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Vuk11 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1797 QLD Gender:	Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? Reply #269 - Nov 5^th, 2013 at 10:42pm The below quote is what a free market capitalist would advocate, personal responsibility and responsibility of others to each other. Not enforcing what some person things other's deserve.
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Poll
Question: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Yes, ofcause. 18 (72.0%) No, it doesnt 7 (28.0%) Total votes: 25 « Created by: Pantheon on: Oct 29^th, 2013 at 9:31am »