Australian Politics Forum - Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Chimp_Logic

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #300 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 12:59pm

Setanta wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 12:54pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 12:49pm:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 2:33am:

Quote:

What an immoral distortion of history this is. Where does one start to address all these distortions. First from the 90s on the fanatical capitalist elite and especially those from the financial sector (esp the bankers) progressively got their minions in government to deregulate and on top of that they positioned there own people in govt regulatory bodies (they do it in australia too, its rife, check out the ACCC for eg) to lobby for more deregulation and to loosely apply existing regulations. The result was that the financial sector went crazy with greed investing in all manner of risky ventures and bang! the GFC. Thats what happened and thats what we all know happened and no amount of bankers propaganda and bankers weasel words is going to change that. So it was too much unregulated free market that caused the GFC not the other way round as you pretend

The problem started with Government wanting every family to have a home and give banks incentives and at times forced banks to give loans to people who could never pay the banks back, the true value of these 'sub-prime loans' were then suppress and replace with an inflated value which was then sold off, no one know how risky these 'sub-prime loans' were and no one cared it was easy money back and guaranteed to be safe.

The housing market in the United States suffered greatly as many home owners who had taken out sub-prime loans found they were unable to meet their mortgage repayments. As the value of homes plummeted, the borrowers found themselves with negative equity. With a large number of borrowers defaulting on loans, banks were faced with a situation where the repossessed house and land was worth less on today’s market than the bank had loaned out originally. The banks had a liquidity crisis on their hands, and giving and obtaining loans became increasingly difficult as the fallout from the sub-prime lending bubble burst. This is commonly referred to as the credit crunch.

lol
http://www.classwarfareexists.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/capitalism1.jpg

History is written by the victors, they say. The bankers won.

The Bankers haven't lost for many centuries

They fund fascism

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #301 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 1:01pm

Pantheon wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 12:04pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 11:47am:

[quote author=Ahovking link=1383003074/287#287 date=1383697263]This!

Your adulation with pictures and quotes by that man is like hari Krishna worship. Really its embarrassing. Why don't you just argue your case. The fact that friedman might have said something or other at one time is neither here nor there. It doesn't make it anymore true because friedman said it. As a matter of fact in my estimation freidman usually tends to be wrong and that's because he allowed his ideology to drive his economic thinking and most have criticized him for bending the truth repeatedly to fit in with his Ayn Rand fanaticism.

BTW you have not responded to most of my post re your absurd scenario that the Government made the banks do it. You did reply that the Government made the Banks give out loans. And there we have it again trying to force a round peg to fit into your ideological square hole. Have you ever seen a bank in action during a housing boom. My wife and I bought our first home in a housing boom. The banks were going crazy with greed not only for the profit of signing us up for 30 years but also to increase their market share in the home lending sector. Not only did they not care weather we could repay or not (since insurance and the rigged foreclosure laws adequately protected them) they tried to talk us into borrowing more. And it was us who said no we wouldn't risk it. Yor claims of these innocent unsuspecting banks forced by the nose by the government to give loans reads like a nazi germany propaganda film with larger then life good guys (the banks) and nasty reprehensible villains (borrowers who understandably would have liked to buy a home, and the Government). Your ideology is blinding you to the truth and dehumanizing you, to side with the crooks against your community neighbors. Unregulated Banker's greed brought on the GFC and if you took off your ideological glasses you would see that as obvious. The did a lot of damage, destroyed a lot of lives and now you want to turn the blame on the government and the borrowers. And what a deceitful ploy it is to introduce that childish expression "lemon socialism". A slight of hand as if to say, sure we got greedy with capitalist fervor that drove the world to its knees but really it was

"socialism what done it"

. Just as Marx predicted Capitalists brought down capitalism in 2008 and they will keep doing it because they cant help themselves and one day the people will say enough is enough. This time were going to replace capitalism with something that works and is fair. Mark my words the longer you refuse to see the truth and look at this through your ideological glasses the sooner that day will come.

Post meme = worship Roll Eyes

You still haven't responded to my post Cool

The problem started with Government wanting every family to have a home and give banks incentives and at times forced banks to give loans to people who could never pay the banks back, the true value of these 'sub-prime loans' were then suppress and replace with an inflated value which was then sold off, no one know how risky these 'sub-prime loans' were and no one cared it was easy money back and guaranteed to be safe.

The housing market in the United States suffered greatly as many home owners who had taken out sub-prime loans found they were unable to meet their mortgage repayments. As the value of homes plummeted, the borrowers found themselves with negative equity. With a large number of borrowers defaulting on loans, banks were faced with a situation where the repossessed house and land was worth less on today’s market than the bank had loaned out originally. The banks had a liquidity crisis on their hands, and giving and obtaining loans became increasingly difficult as the fallout from the sub-prime lending bubble burst. This is commonly referred to as the credit crunch.

Socialism has failed time after time, in other 30 countries it has been tired and failed. Its less than a theory and more of a joke.

there is very little chance of you understanding the underlying core principles and morals that make HUMANS human.

Ahovking, WHY did you start this thread? You sound worried?

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Vuk11

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #302 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 1:19pm

The quote by George Bernard Shaw:
self interest backed by force is associated with capitalism in his quote because at that time there was no consideration of a stateless society. Their idea of capitalism was with state interference, so in that sense all beliefs capitalim's/socialism whatever of that era are backed by force. Capitalism is government force giving special concessions to the wealthy, socialism is the forced redistribution of wealth. That quote is largely irrelevant to free market capitalism of today due to that boxed in paradigm of statism. If you disagree please explain what force exists outside of state coercion.

The quote by Keynes:
Believe it or not Keynes is fine with capitalism(as you pointed out before), he just focused on the flaws of state run capitalism of that time. What he leaves out of that quote is that the wickedest of men will do the wickedest of things in competition with each other thus producing the greatest good for everyone. I'll give an example two companies competing to sell you apples. They undercut each other to effectively coerce/steal customers from each other (wicked) thus producing lower prices, which puts more apples in the hands of consumers, the winning company gets the benefit of the business and everyone is happy as neither business will ever have 100% of the customers so each will still profit just one more than the other.

Capitalism or the idea of trade between individuals has these spontaneous natural checks and balances that produce benefits from wicked deeds. However the idea of removing the state is that if you accept that men are fallible, that they are a greedy, that they will seek to gain advantage over each other than it makes no logical sense whatsoever to create a central monopoly of power over a population called the state.

The only defense you have(statism) to stop the wrong people from exercising control is literally paper....you want to trust paper laws to stop criminals/sociopaths etc from misusing the power of the state? Ridiculous, so the idea is that if you remove that state you remove the single biggest avenue for control that has ever existed and allow people to be free to control their own destinies, free from coercion and free to voluntarily interact for the greatest benefit of all. The fear is that people will somehow misuse freedom MORE than misuse power.....which is ridiculous but even then there are those natural checks and balances in place etc.

This quote explains it best: I'll keep hammering this quote home because it shows the fallacy of statism best.

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Chimp_Logic Gold Member Offline πολιτικός Posts: 4826 Mawson Base Gender:	Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? Reply #303 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 1:29pm keep reading
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Vuk11

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #304 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 1:56pm

"Capitalism is a system in which the central institutions of society are in principle under autocratic control."

Personally I'm for free choice over democracy which is a form of coercion by the many. But I'm not following where he says capitalism is control by the autocrats (ie: "relating to a ruler who has absolute power."). It looks again like he is speaking of corporations and governments together exerting control over the masses, none of these are criticisms of free market capitalism with no rulers but the crony corporatism we have today that you so eloquently put it.

You have to remember you can't use current or past examples of corporate and state tyranny to refute free market capitalism(Only relevant aspects, corporations are no relevant aspects of the free market as they don't exist without the state) that is free from both corporations and states. All of these quotes are criticisms of capitalism + government + government created corporations NOT freedom + free trade.

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #305 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 2:07pm

Vuk11 wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 12:24pm:

Voluntary work cannot be considered immoral because by definition voluntary means free from coercion. Charity is voluntary and is moral no matter which way you look at it, but violently forcing charity ie socialism is immoral.

Do you want a moral society or not?

VUk 11 once again trying to teach victims that black is white but still not realising the 99% are there to warn said victim!

vu must be one of those rare cases who never gets tired of smoking boring ass crack Grin

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #306 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 2:16pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 1:29pm:

keep reading

http://www.mangu.tv/sites/default/files/imagecache/slideshow-wide/cck_image/chom...

Chomsky has become quite wealthy through capitalism. He charges universities exorbitant fees for him to speak on campuses, and then charges students and academics an admission price to watch him speak!

Like most "progressives", his hypocrisy knows no bounds.

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Grey

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #307 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 2:21pm

Vuk11 wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 1:56pm:

"Capitalism is a system in which the central institutions of society are in principle under autocratic control."

Personally I'm for free choice over democracy which is a form of coercion by the many. But I'm not following where he says capitalism is control by the autocrats (ie: "relating to a ruler who has absolute power."). It looks again like he is speaking of corporations and governments together exerting control over the masses, none of these are criticisms of free market capitalism with no rulers but the crony corporatism we have today that you so eloquently put it.

You have to remember you can't use current or past examples of corporate and state tyranny to refute free market capitalism(Only relevant aspects, corporations are no relevant aspects of the free market as they don't exist without the state) that is free from both corporations and states. All of these quotes are criticisms of capitalism + government + government created corporations NOT freedom + free trade.

Thing is Vuk, I want the Hu race to be free of you and wage slavery. I want to be free of mass shyte produced with capitalist efficiency. Most of all I want to be free of the misconcept that success is ripping more people off than you yourself are ripped off.

At the end of the day the girlfriend you're so anxious to please is nothing but that incestuous, disease ridden, fat old whore Babylon and you work our arse off just to buy her some new plastic tits.

"Why not help one another along the way, makes it much easier" - Bob Marley

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Vuk11

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #308 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 2:22pm

Ahh I thought I remembered him from somewhere:

(The following post is IMO important, Chomsky and Smith are quoted as why free market capitalism cannot exist, yet they admit it would be preferable if it were possible)

I really think this guy is a fool in this video.
He goes on to say that American Libertarianism is not the generally accepted definition by the European world.

His argument (lack of) starts to fall apart at 1:26 he says: (criticizing Anarcho-Capitalism) "Power ought to be given into the hands of private unaccountable tyrannies, even worse than state tyrannies, because there the public has some kind of rule"

This is ridiculously fallacious and I don't know why you'd quote such a man. In a free society business is 100% accountable to A. pleasing it's customers and B. contracts. You don't need a government to enforce contracts evident in the article I've linked about 5 times in this thread. Then he says the public has some kind of control of state tyrannies and I argue that is 100% false. IF the US government can wipe it's arse with the constitution, go to war when the majority of the public says no, NSA illegally spying on it's citizens and police illegally arresting people that are upholding their constitution, then the public has no control over the political system.

He then talks about the corporate system being "completely unaccountable", when libertarians advocate a free society where there are NO corporations at all.

Also says that the reason why the free society doesn't exist is because those in power won't allow it, which is precisely why we advocate the masses changing the system themselves regardless of what the few in power want.

Interestingly he goes on about Adam Smith as you guys like to quote against capitalism:

"Would I LIKE to see Laissez-faire capitalism? Well only under the conditions described by Adam Smith.............the argument was that under conditions of perfect liberty markets will lead to perfect equality, that's why markets are good (so both Chomsky and Adam Smith admit the benefits of perfect freedom that you demonize using their quotes), he said they will lead to perfect equality and they will not force people to subject themselves to outside orders. If that were possible maybe so. But it's not possible."

He is basically agreeing and also saying that Adam Smith agrees that if you had a perfectly free society that would be most desirable. However his point of contention is that it is not possible to have a society free of state coercion.

Which is exactly why I go into why we CAN have a totally free society, because the objections against and the reasons why it is impossible are all the same "corporations will take over", "who will build muh roads", "what do we do without courts/police/laws" etc etc the arguments are all the same and it's in targeting these arguments that we seek to cross the final hurdle for a free society.

It's interesting that you quote people like Smith and Chomsky that agree with what we advocate, they are just unable to justify how it could be possible, yet others now can in this day and age.

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« Last Edit: Nov 6^th, 2013 at 2:42pm by Vuk11 »

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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? Reply #309 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 2:32pm Even colony insects have their workers and their queens. Which are you?
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Vuk11

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #310 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 2:53pm

Grey wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 2:21pm:

Thing is Vuk, I want the Hu race to be free of you and wage slavery. I want to be free of mass shyte produced with capitalist efficiency. Most of all I want to be free of the misconcept that success is ripping more people off than you yourself are ripped off.

I would disagree with you that wage slavery exists at all, if it did perhaps today (I can sort of agree with it today) it is only due to the imperative to earn forced by state taxation. Remove that and the only thing you are forced to do is to survive, anything else becomes beneficial but not necessary.

I have explained about why due to voluntarism and time preference wage slavery is fictitious in a free society.

You want to be free from me? I am not forcing anyone to do anything, without a state you aren't forced to do anything so why do you care what someone voluntarily does with their own life? Seriously? If it's voluntary why do you seek to impose your subjective view of what people "deserve", which is irrelevant to the parties involved as you are not there to control every single decision are you? Unless you are forgetting what the word voluntary means, IE free from coercion.

Look at your irrationality mate:
Quote:

It's irelevant to you how much people are ripped off, that's what makes you the capitalist exploiting greedy cunning little shyte.

Because I seek to refute your idea of wage slavery that I disagree with, all of a sudden I don't care when people are ripped off? No I care, which is why I am charitable of my own free will, which is why I advocate a free society. The problem is you think people are being ripped off, when that's not up to you it's up to them.

It's like that analogy of a car sale, you aren't there to oversee every car sale to make sure people aren't being "ripped off" in your subjective view. But it doesn't matter all that matters is whether the people in the interaction agree to it or not without coercion or duress.

A quote form Thomas Sowell that perfectly shows the fallacies present in this thread:

"Liberals seem to assume that, if you don't believe in their particular political solutions, then you don't really care about the people they claim to want to help."

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #311 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 3:07pm

Vuk11 wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Grey wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 2:21pm:

Thing is Vuk, I want the Hu race to be free of you and wage slavery. I want to be free of mass shyte produced with capitalist efficiency. Most of all I want to be free of the misconcept that success is ripping more people off than you yourself are ripped off.

I would disagree with you that wage slavery exists at all, if it did perhaps today (I can sort of agree with it today) it is only due to the imperative to earn forced by state taxation. Remove that and the only thing you are forced to do is to survive, anything else becomes beneficial but not necessary.

I have explained about why due to voluntarism and time preference wage slavery is fictitious in a free society.

You want to be free from me? I am not forcing anyone to do anything, without a state you aren't forced to do anything so why do you care what someone voluntarily does with their own life? Seriously? If it's voluntary why do you seek to impose your subjective view of what people "deserve", which is irrelevant to the parties involved as you are not there to control every single decision are you? Unless you are forgetting what the word voluntary means, IE free from coercion.

Look at your irrationality mate:
Quote:

It's irelevant to you how much people are ripped off, that's what makes you the capitalist exploiting greedy cunning little shyte.

Because I seek to refute your idea of wage slavery that I disagree with, all of a sudden I don't care when people are ripped off? No I care, which is why I am charitable of my own free will, which is why I advocate a free society. The problem is you think people are being ripped off, when that's not up to you it's up to them.

It's like that analogy of a car sale, you aren't there to oversee every car sale to make sure people aren't being "ripped off" in your subjective view. But it doesn't matter all that matters is whether the people in the interaction agree to it or not without coercion or duress.

A quote form Thomas Sowell that perfectly shows the fallacies present in this thread:

"Liberals seem to assume that, if you don't believe in their particular political solutions, then you don't really care about the people they claim to want to help."

VUk, in his first paragraph, argues the merits of anarchy Roll Eyes

what a tuff-guy Cheesy

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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Vuk11

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #312 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 3:10pm

Also on Chomsky:

Quote:

What are Chomsky’s major complaints?

To summarize briefly:

Economies have been hijacked by mercantilism, the fallacy that says one party wins only if the other party loses when an exchange occurs,
Corporations have become private tyrannies accountable to no one,
The cooperation of powerful states with powerful corporations,
The rich and powerful want to avoid market discipline at all costs, i.e., they want to deliberately suppress market competition.

All of these points are consistent with the ideas expressed by market anarchists. Let me briefly demonstrate how this is so.

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/common-ground-between-anarcho-capitalism-and-noam-ch...

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Vuk11 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1797 QLD Gender:	Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? Reply #313 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 3:12pm BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 3:07pm: VUk, in his first paragraph, argues the merits of anarchy what a tuff-guy Why do you always troll my posts in every thread? I appreciate the attention but I just don't swing that way.
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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? Reply #314 - Nov 6^th, 2013 at 3:44pm Vuk11 wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 3:12pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 6^th, 2013 at 3:07pm: VUk, in his first paragraph, argues the merits of anarchy what a tuff-guy Why do you always troll my posts in every thread? I appreciate the attention but I just don't swing that way.
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Poll
Question: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Yes, ofcause. 18 (72.0%) No, it doesnt 7 (28.0%) Total votes: 25 « Created by: Pantheon on: Oct 29^th, 2013 at 9:31am »