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Question: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Yes, ofcause.    
  18 (72.0%)
No, it doesnt    
  7 (28.0%)




Total votes: 25
« Created by: Pantheon on: Oct 29th, 2013 at 9:31am »

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Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? (Read 59522 times)
Chimp_Logic
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #330 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:01pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 7:51pm:
Haha, did he just say communism isn't exploitative?
Or is he saying that the opposite of man exploiting man is man exploiting man? In that case there's no point saying it.



Yes the later - essentially equating communism with capitalism - both exploitative regime - both totalitarian in nature

Don't you recall the statement I made concerning China and the USA?

China = State Run pseudo capitalist system
USA = Corporately Run pseudo capitalist system.

Both are tyrannical forms of fascism

In the Political realm there is very little debate about this reality

(irrespective of how LOUD each of these two countries scream)

You've been HAD vuk11 - totally

Youre not alone though
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #331 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:03pm
 
Quote:
He asserts that Galbraith believes in the superiority of aristocracy and in its paternalistic authority, that consumers should not be allowed choice, and that all should be determined by those with "higher minds":

Many reformers – Galbraith is not alone in this – have as their basic objection to a free market that it frustrates them in achieving their reforms, because it enables people to have what they want, not what the reformers want. Hence every reformer has a strong tendency to be averse to a free market.



Typical intellectual thinking he knows best how others should live, that he is of finer clay than the rest of us, that we should give him control of our lives. What a joke...may I suggest Thomas Sowell's criticism of intellectuals?

Though chimp I agree we don't have free market capitalism we do have some corporate fascism of some sort, the US does and so does China. But that's not what I advocate, corporations don't exist without a state.
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #332 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:06pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:03pm:
Quote:
He asserts that Galbraith believes in the superiority of aristocracy and in its paternalistic authority, that consumers should not be allowed choice, and that all should be determined by those with "higher minds":

Many reformers – Galbraith is not alone in this – have as their basic objection to a free market that it frustrates them in achieving their reforms, because it enables people to have what they want, not what the reformers want. Hence every reformer has a strong tendency to be averse to a free market.



Typical intellectual thinking he knows best how others should live, that he is of finer clay than the rest of us, that we should give him control of our lives. What a joke...may I suggest Thomas Sowell's criticism of intellectuals?


Ah BAstiat - you always return to essentially one quote.

A little bit like you AGW denialism hey vuk11?

You worship the Bolts and Moncktons of this world

Try broadening your reading material

You even ignored the great Noam Chomsky

Surely youre not going to dispute the great Bertrand Russell? What would poor old Russell have to gain speaking such truths mr vuk11?

...

that description of capitalism sounds very much like FASCISM - doesn't it Mr vuk11
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #333 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:17pm
 
Friedman, Sowell, Hayek, Bastiat, Rothbard, Ayn Rand, Hans-Hermann Hoppe would all disagree with you. Even Adam Smith/Chomsky agree that a totally free society would provide the most equality and equity.

You tried to use Chomsky and Smith to discredit free choice yet they agree with what I advocate, only that they couldn't see it being possible.

Even who you just quoted hasn't enough imagination to think how it could work. Just because a few people can't think of how something could work; A. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, B. Doesn't refute the immorality of the state, C. Doesn't refute the efficiency gained in the free market and D. Has no bearing on how others can imagine a way for it to work.

If you are so scared of corporation taking over why don't you think for a minute or two about it. What do you really fear? There are no corporations without a state? So what could McDonalds possibly do to you? I don't see McDonalds holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy big Macs.

want to know one possible way of morally enforcing property rights and contracts? DRO's and credit rating agencies, we have them today in their infancy and they can be expanded to include both:

http://archive.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux1.html
(probably the most important article I have to share to open the minds of those to fearful to think rationally)
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #334 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:21pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:17pm:
Friedman, Sowell, Hayek, Bastiat, Rothbard, Ayn Rand, Hans-Hermann Hoppe would all disagree with you. Even Adam Smith/Chomsky agree that a totally free society would provide the most equality and equity.
)


Impossible to have equality and equity under a capitalist regime.

You are circling your own wagons around your own carcass vuk11

give up?


...
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #335 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:31pm
 
You've got a long way to go with logic and reason to proving your assertions of capitalism.

A few unsubstantiated assumptions and quote's aren't enough to refute facts, logic, evidence and all the prominent individuals that disagree.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #336 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 10:43pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 7:51pm:
Haha, did he just say communism isn't exploitative?
Or is he saying that the opposite of man exploiting man is man exploiting man? In that case there's no point saying it.


It's called irony, yeah, we heard, it's an unamerican activity.

Quote:
I find it interesting people can't find any real flaws (I know of two myself) in free market capitalism, they have to resort to pointing out flaws in the current corporate fascist system and label it capitalism.


It's got more holes than a metre of muslin, why pick on one? Okay just for starters, if there's no government, there's no government land. Sounds like the housing crisis is over, as well as the environment. Y'all enjoy choking on your own excrement now.
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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #337 - Nov 6th, 2013 at 11:01pm
 
I have been reading through all this stuff Vuk has posted trying to get some coherent threads to see what the arguments are and honestly its all assertions with nothing to back it up.  This will happen under free market capitalism and that wont happen, with no reasons offered for why this is necessarily so. Anything that's bad with the current economic system, well that's everybody else's fault, not capitalism and everything that's good well that's all thanks to capitalism with no reasons for any of this shyte . Of course he wants to get rid of the state because as chomsky says, it at least throws us a few crumbs of protection and the capitalists hate that. They want to be totally free to practice their deceit unrestrained.  He labels things voluntary and thinks simply because he has labelled it so, it must be voluntary. I think he even uses that argument (memories of the ontological argument).  Any exploitation that goes on is all the states fault (nothing to do with capitalists).  He talks about free choice and that its superior to democracy and pretends that deciet and cheating by capitalists is something that just doesnt happen.  Ask those poor Filipino workers who were paid $3 an hour.  And once we get rid of the state will this kind of exploitation cease.  No! in fact expect more of it. 

This Ayn Rand worship snake needs to be extricated from the community.  They want community to facilitate their explotation but they dont want to do anything in return for the benefits that they derive from community. In fact if the community interferes with their best interests then its the community that is at fault, not them.  And nothing makes this point clearer then their total hatred of taxation.  Totally Monstrous creatures. They don't belong in our midst. We need to kick them out back to the jungle where they belong and let them eat themselves.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #338 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:30am
 
Quote:
there is very little chance of you understanding the underlying core principles and morals that make HUMANS human.


Capitalism is the moral system, since it is the only system that allows man to be virtuous — to pursue the good — by leaving him free to act by the use of his reason. Freedom to act is a precondition of morality. This is Capitalism’s moral justification.

Quote:
Ahovking, WHY did you start this thread? You sound worried?


Ofcause i am, we have Australians wanting to try a theory that has fail time and time again, i was once a socialist, because in theory socialist seems fairer and a more superior however as i grown up i became clear that socialism in theory is very different in socialist in practice..

And as we begin introducing more socialist program and government will start intervening more and will inevitable end to the workers as well as the employers will be suppress.

Socialism is not the answer capitalism nor is it a step forward but a step backwards.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Pantheon
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #339 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:30am
 
Quote:
I did reply to this you just didn't like the answer.  Basically what I said was that it's crap that the banks were made to loan money out to the impecunious lenders. The banks were greedy for the $$$ and market share and caused the crisis. Their greed causes the collapse of capitalism as Marx said it would and one day they will do it once too often and thankfully the people will demand a workable economic system that is fair.  As for socialism not working that again is not true.  Since the russian revolution capitalism has collapsed  twice and since 2008 has been on the brink of collapsing again. The problem with capitalism is that it'd bad in theory and doesn't work in parctice and the sooner we ditch it the better. 


your ignoring that facts.

The problem started with Government wanting every family to have a home and give banks incentives and at times forced banks to give loans to people who could never pay the banks back, the true value of these 'sub-prime loans' were then suppress and replace with an inflated value which was then sold off, no one know how risky these 'sub-prime loans' were and no one cared it was easy money back and guaranteed to be safe.

It didn't start with banks it start with government.

Quote:
  Planned enconomies have rescued more people from hunger and poverty then capitalism ever could (eg China, USSR).  Capitalism on the other hand has put more people in poverty and huunger then any other eco system.


you biggest problem is that you fail to understand capitalism.

The Economist published a chart last week showing thanks to the rise of capitalism, poverty will all but be eradicated by the year 2030.

In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.

If these countries maintain their economic growth rate, poverty would fall from the one billion it's at today, to just over 200 million by the year 2030.

Wherever free markets are put into practice, we see the creation of wealth. As shown in the chart below, when a country's overall wealth grows, even when it is not distributed evenly among social classes, everyone benefits.

By the year 2030, poverty levels will be around 200 million worldwide — a 3% poverty rate. Even though poverty will not be completely eliminated, we will have helped rescue 1.8 billion people from poverty over 40 years.

Allowing people the freedom to keep their own money and use their God-given talents is the best way to help families in need. Private charities and business will always do more to help a country prosper than government ever can.

That being said, this chart really does put things into perspective. While we take for granted the simple things in life, nearly 1 billion people throughout the globe are currently struggling to survive on less than $1.25 a day. While it's great to get involved and donate your time, talents, and resources to local charities, what's really going to help these families is economic liberty.



Quote:
it was the socialist countries that escaped the great depression virtually unscathed.  These are facts you dont want to hear because it doesnt suit you.  All we need now is a socialist economy with a genuine direct democracy and were good to go to.


OMG so funny, they escaped the great depression virtually unscathed because they were not only less connected with other nations at that time but they were in no way near developed as the capitalism states during the  great depression, if you could provide some evidence of a socialist state as developed as other capitalist state of that time  escaping the great depression virtually unscathed please feel free to post it. 

http://www.policymic.com/articles/47817/the-one-chart-that-proves-capitalism-works
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #340 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:37am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 7:45pm:
Surely the great Galbraith cant be wrong on this one?

vuk11 and the Magnificent Ahovking must be running for cover at the moment - the pressure of fascism is building upon their pathetic stench immersed carcasses


http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-under-capitalism-man-exploits-man-unde...


Magnificent Ahovking  Cool

Quote:
you support fascism and you don't even realise it

Your love for Big Brother is riddled with the stench of your own delusional slave based surrender

Now read once again, from the enlightened ones. the ones who expose you


LOL Dont you want a socialist systems chimp which needs a 'Big Brother' to administrate everything from what you can sell at what price at what location and how long you can work at where you can work etc...smell that guys....its the small of socialist freedoms.

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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #341 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:52am
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:30am:
[b][i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.


So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #342 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:55am
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 8:31pm:
You've got a long way to go with logic and reason to proving your assertions of capitalism.

A few unsubstantiated assumptions and quote's aren't enough to refute facts, logic, evidence and all the prominent individuals that disagree.



look vuk11, lets cut the primate crap for a moment.

I have no problem with people advocating a capitalist based society, or any other type society for that matter.

But to gallop in here and try to MORALLY defend the capitalist economic model is simply ridiculous. To rant about freedom, choice and paint capitalism as some sort of height of humanitarianism is embarrassing to say the least.


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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #343 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 9:05am
 
Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:52am:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:30am:
[i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.


So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.


1 billion not in poverty now because their [b]income has increase to the point they are no longer in 'poverty
'

In international terms if you live in AUS living on $50 No your not living in 'poverty' and if you don't like it take it up with the UN  Cool, plus where is he getting the $50 from?

The point was that the wealth of the poor and needy is growing under capitalism as it has always done.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #344 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 9:06am
 
Vuk11 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 6:20pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Nov 6th, 2013 at 4:47pm:
The problem with capitalism is that it'd bad in theory and doesn't work in parctice and the sooner we ditch it the better.  Planned enconomies have rescued more people from hunger and poverty then capitalism ever could (eg China, USSR).  Capitalism on the other hand has put more people in poverty and huunger then any other eco system.  it was the socialist countries that escaped the great depression virtually unscathed.  These are facts you dont want to hear because it doesnt suit you.  All we need now is a socialist economy with a genuine direct democracy and were good to go to.      



Could you um....substantiate all those claims with some logic and evidence I'm really interested how you came to those conclusions. Do you deny the problems with socialism and why they borrow so much from capitalism in China etc?



If you spent less time cutting and pasting from the Cato Institute those stupid power point images of old men with quotes out of context and spent more time reading history and going to sites that challenge your preconceived indoctrinated beliefs you might start developing something like an informed view.  FFS at least read some history. You know dont you that your ideology can't change history now matter how much you might lie about it (Bankers didnt cause the GFC it was the people and those bad bad governments that made them do it- what hogwash).  CHINA when the communists took over in 1949 was as 3rd world as you can get. In 20 years the chinese planned economy pulled close to 1 third of the worlds population out of poverty and clothed, fed and sheltered them all. The Chinese economy has continually outstripped the west in growth to become the worlds manufacturer. It's still very much a planned economy leaving the west for dead in its dust.  INDIA , after independence adopted a planned economy and again only started to relax that since the 90s but pulled a huge proportion of its people out of poverty and fed clothed and sheltered them.  Although very successful India was less successful then china in pulling its people out of poverty because of the adherence to capitalism in that country.  Its just a fact.  Same in America.  Lots of wealthy people living with desperately poor people and since the GFC, hungry homeless people (not so in China up to the early 1990s.  Only since the capitalist shift have we started to see that phenomena in China and the desperately exploited work force there.  RUSSIA's 5 year plans from the time of the revolution to the 70s saw phenomenal growth in what was essentially a 3rd world country (economically, not militarily) lift its population from starvation (yes yes, no one is advocating the totalitarian government there, I'm just talking about the success of the planned economy).  JAPAN  I believe is another example of a planned economy that saw that country rise from medieval conditions at the time Commodore Perry forced it open in 1854 to virtual first world status in less then 60 years.   And it stands to reason. Of course Planned economies are going to do better economically then the haphazard, hit and miss boom bust confusion of the capitalist market place where self interest serves a few but betrays the rest.  Were it not for the political system in this country with Unions and governments that at the time worked genuinely (in part ) for the interests of the people, we would have been getting paid less then $3 an hour today and work place deaths and injury along with child labour would have been the order of the day.  Thats what unregulated capitalism does and proved itself over the centuries to always do because it cant help itself.                     
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