Australian Politics Forum - Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Chimp_Logic

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #345 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:11am

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:05am:

Setanta wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

[i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.

So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.

1 billion not in poverty now because their [b]income has increase to the point they are no longer in 'poverty'

In international terms if you live in AUS living on $50 No your not living in 'poverty' and if you don't like it take it up with the UN Cool

, plus where is he getting the $50 from?

The point was that the wealth of the poor and needy is growing under capitalism as it has always done.

as usual - factually incorrect and standard capitalist dogma.

How deep was this delusional viewpoint rammed into your skull Ahovking?

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #346 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:37am

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

Quote:

there is very little chance of you understanding the underlying core principles and morals that make HUMANS human.

Capitalism is the moral system, since it is the only system that allows man to be virtuous — to pursue the good — by leaving him free to act by the use of his reason. Freedom to act is a precondition of morality. This is Capitalism’s moral justification.

Quote:

Ahovking, WHY did you start this thread? You sound worried?

Ofcause i am, we have Australians wanting to try a theory that has fail time and time again, i was once a socialist, because in theory socialist seems fairer and a more superior however as i grown up i became clear that socialism in theory is very different in socialist in practice..

And as we begin introducing more socialist program and government will start intervening more and will inevitable end to the workers as well as the employers will be suppress.

Socialism is not the answer capitalism nor is it a step forward but a step backwards.

Yes indeed I think he is worried and for good reason. Capitalism is unable to cope with the environmental challenges and diminishing resources that the world is facing and will get worse very quickly. As the water supply diminishes and becomes more polluted he wants to be sure that you cant tell him to stop fracking to the detriment of the rest of us. He wants to be sure that he can still open up more Fukashimas without you saying he cant even if he fills the oceans with nuclear waste. He wants to make sure that the wealth of those generating this absurd propaganda is protected even while the rest of us go hungry because of diminishing water and food supplies due to an unruly market place whose only moral compass is "me" "me"" "me" "me"" me" "me". Capitalism is destroying our planet, its destroying our communities, our families our humanity. its making us one dimensional as if the only thing we human beings are about is buying and selling and money. Indeed Ahovking is so fanatic that our morals are really just about buying and selling, thats all we are, buying and selling automatons. And the fanaticism has reached fever pitch and I think it is indeed because they're scared that their greedy selfish ways are numbered and scared they should be because the world cant afford them any more.

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #347 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:41am

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

Quote:

I did reply to this you just didn't like the answer. Basically what I said was that it's crap that the banks were made to loan money out to the impecunious lenders. The banks were greedy for the $$$ and market share and caused the crisis. Their greed causes the collapse of capitalism as Marx said it would and one day they will do it once too often and thankfully the people will demand a workable economic system that is fair. As for socialism not working that again is not true. Since the russian revolution capitalism has collapsed twice and since 2008 has been on the brink of collapsing again. The problem with capitalism is that it'd bad in theory and doesn't work in parctice and the sooner we ditch it the better.

your ignoring that facts.

Your making up the facts!!!!

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #348 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:52am

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

you biggest problem is that you fail to understand capitalism.

your biggest problem is that you only read propaganda sites designed to shape your mind in one direction. That's why you say such absurd things like "The poor bankers were forced to throw the world into the GFC. You and a lot of your country men and women suffered because of the GFC and will continue to suffer but they have trained you to make excuses for them and shed a tear for them for the despicable thing they did. Its pathetic really .

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Setanta

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #349 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 10:09am

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:05am:

Setanta wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

[i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.

So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.

1 billion not in poverty now because their [b]income has increase to the point they are no longer in 'poverty'

In international terms if you live in AUS living on $50 No your not living in 'poverty' and if you don't like it take it up with the UN Cool

, plus where is he getting the $50 from?

The point was that the wealth of the poor and needy is growing under capitalism as it has always done.

No, I'll take it up with you, you used the information when you could have disregarded it for the tripe it is. The income of the poor always rises, it doesn't mean they're not in poverty because they get more than $1.25 after 20 years. Does $1.25 buy as much as it did 20 years ago?
What does it matter where the $50 comes from, collecting cans for scrap for all I know, but it's so great to know that $50AU a week is not living in poverty, maybe you should try it. You'll be rich, over 4 times the poverty line. Thank god for capitalism!

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #350 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:10am

Setanta wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:05am:

Setanta wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

[i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.

So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.

1 billion not in poverty now because their [b]income has increase to the point they are no longer in 'poverty'

In international terms if you live in AUS living on $50 No your not living in 'poverty' and if you don't like it take it up with the UN Cool

, plus where is he getting the $50 from?

The point was that the wealth of the poor and needy is growing under capitalism as it has always done.

No, I'll take it up with you, you used the information when you could have disregarded it for the tripe it is. The income of the poor always rises, it doesn't mean they're not in poverty because they get more than $1.25 after 20 years. Does $1.25 buy as much as it did 20 years ago?
What does it matter where the $50 comes from, collecting cans for scrap for all I know, but it's so great to know that $50AU a week is not living in poverty, maybe you should try it. You'll be rich, over 4 times the poverty line. Thank god for capitalism!

There is always a poverty line. It is determined by an income level which is half of the medium wage.

In Australia the medium wage is about $25,000 per year (ie half the working force earn this amount or less).

So the income poverty level in Australia is about $12,500 per year. And there are approximately 2.5 million people earning that amount or less (1/4 of the work force).

Its interesting to note that politicians and the media often quote MEAN income levels, which are about $65,000 per year, but only 20% of workers earn this amount or more per year.

Its a very skewered distribution of wealth and income, a direct consequence of corporate capitalism. Only 5% of workers earn more than $105,000 per year.

During the last financial year of the top 100 Australian corporations, 40% didn't pay any tax at all. Of the remaining 60% the average tax paid was about 13%.

Its a corporatised scam. Socialistic corporate welfare for the rich and powerful. Always has been.

And there are many suckers who have swallowed the corporatised capitalist fascist spin hook line and sinker

How ya goin Ahovking and vuk11?

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Pantheon

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #351 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:10am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:37am:

Yes indeed I think he is worried and for good reason. Capitalism is unable to cope with the environmental challenges and diminishing resources that the world is facing and will get worse very quickly. As the water supply diminishes and becomes more polluted he wants to be sure that you cant tell him to stop fracking to the detriment of the rest of us. He wants to be sure that he can still open up more Fukashimas without you saying he cant even if he fills the oceans with nuclear waste. He wants to make sure that the wealth of those generating this absurd propaganda is protected even while the rest of us go hungry because of diminishing water and food supplies due to an unruly market place whose only moral compass is "me" "me"" "me" "me"" me" "me". Capitalism is destroying our planet, its destroying our communities, our families our humanity. its making us one dimensional as if the only thing we human beings are about is buying and selling and money. Indeed Ahovking is so fanatic that our morals are really just about buying and selling, thats all we are, buying and selling automatons. And the fanaticism has reached fever pitch and I think it is indeed because they're scared that their greedy selfish ways are numbered and scared they should be because the world cant afford them any more.

First Google 'sentence' and try using them

second, Your failing once again to understand capitalism,

Capitalism is the system of individual rights. It is the greatest protector of man’s environment’ (as opposed to the protection of the environment at the expense of man’s well-being).

Under capitalism all property is privately owned. If you pollute your own property that is your business (but in doing so you reduce the property value which would not be in your self-interest). However, the minute your pollution spreads to another person’s property, and causes objectively provable damage, the owners of that property can sue you as a matter of right.

The right to property is not the privilege to damage or pollute the property of others. Witness that the privately owned locks and streams of Scotland are far cleaner than the government owned cesspools of socialist India.

As for the disposing of the pollution of factories, this is a technological solution — and capitalism, as the system of technological progress, is the only system that can provide such a solution,

The future, Natural Capitalism: Creating the Next Industrial Revolution:

The Four Principles of Natural Capitalism
1. RADICALLY INCREASE THE PRODUCTIVITY OF NATURAL RESOURCES
Through fundamental changes in both production design and technology, farsighted companies are developing ways to make natural resources — energy, minerals, water, forests — stretch five, ten, even 100 times further than they do today. The resulting savings in operational costs, capital investment, and time can help natural capitalists implement the other three principles.

2. SHIFT TO BIOLOGICALLY INSPIRED PRODUCTION MODELS AND MATERIALS
Natural capitalism seeks not merely to reduce waste but to eliminate the very concept of waste. In closed-loop production systems, modeled on nature's designs, every output either is returned harmlessly to the ecosystem as a nutrient, like compost, or becomes an input for another manufacturing process. Industrial processes that emulate the benign chemistry of nature reduce dependence on nonrenewable inputs, make possible often phenomenally more efficient production, and can result in elegantly simple products that rival anything man-made.

3. MOVE TO A "SERVICE-AND-FLOW" BUSINESS MODEL
The business model of traditional manufacturing rests on the sale of goods. In the new model, value is instead delivered as a continuous flow of services—such as providing illumination rather than selling light bulbs. This aligns the interests of providers and customers in ways that reward them for resource productivity.

4. REINVEST IN NATURAL CAPITAL
Capital begets more capital; a company that depletes its own capital is eroding the basis of its future prosperity. Pressures on business to restore, sustain, and expand natural capital are mounting as human needs expand, the costs of deteriorating ecosystems rise, and the environmental awareness of consumers increases. Fortunately, these pressures all create business opportunity

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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.

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Pantheon

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #352 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:11am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:05am:

Setanta wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

[i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.

So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.

1 billion not in poverty now because their [b]income has increase to the point they are no longer in 'poverty'

In international terms if you live in AUS living on $50 No your not living in 'poverty' and if you don't like it take it up with the UN Cool

, plus where is he getting the $50 from?

The point was that the wealth of the poor and needy is growing under capitalism as it has always done.

as usual - factually incorrect and standard capitalist dogma.

How deep was this delusional viewpoint rammed into your skull Ahovking?

Would you like to provide evidence to disprove my claim..

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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.

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Pantheon

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #353 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:11am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:52am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

you biggest problem is that you fail to understand capitalism.

your biggest problem is that you only read propaganda sites designed to shape your mind in one direction. That's why you say such absurd things like "The poor bankers were forced to throw the world into the GFC. You and a lot of your country men and women suffered because of the GFC and will continue to suffer but they have trained you to make excuses for them and shed a tear for them for the despicable thing they did. Its pathetic really .

Sites? how about lectures, textbooks and second and first had sources!

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:41am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

Quote:

I did reply to this you just didn't like the answer. Basically what I said was that it's crap that the banks were made to loan money out to the impecunious lenders. The banks were greedy for the $$$ and market share and caused the crisis. Their greed causes the collapse of capitalism as Marx said it would and one day they will do it once too often and thankfully the people will demand a workable economic system that is fair. As for socialism not working that again is not true. Since the russian revolution capitalism has collapsed twice and since 2008 has been on the brink of collapsing again. The problem with capitalism is that it'd bad in theory and doesn't work in parctice and the sooner we ditch it the better.

your ignoring that facts.

Your making up the facts!!!!

Lol you wish

Educate yourself..

Overdose: The Next Financial Crisis

The financial storm that has rocked the world began brewing in the US when congress pushed the idea of home ownership for all, propping up those who couldn't make the down payments. When it all went wrong the government promised the biggest financial stimulus packages in history and gargantuan bailouts. But what crazed logic is that: propping up debt with more debt? "They're giving alcohol to a drunk: it just sets him up for a bigger hangover."

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #354 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:18am

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:11am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:05am:

Setanta wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

[i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.

So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.

1 billion not in poverty now because their [b]income has increase to the point they are no longer in 'poverty'

In international terms if you live in AUS living on $50 No your not living in 'poverty' and if you don't like it take it up with the UN Cool

, plus where is he getting the $50 from?

The point was that the wealth of the poor and needy is growing under capitalism as it has always done.

as usual - factually incorrect and standard capitalist dogma.

How deep was this delusional viewpoint rammed into your skull Ahovking?

Would you like to provide evidence to disprove my claim..

How can you make a claim about something you can't even define properly and honestly?

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Pantheon

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #355 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:22am

Setanta wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:05am:

Setanta wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

[i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.

So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.

1 billion not in poverty now because their [b]income has increase to the point they are no longer in 'poverty'

In international terms if you live in AUS living on $50 No your not living in 'poverty' and if you don't like it take it up with the UN Cool

, plus where is he getting the $50 from?

The point was that the wealth of the poor and needy is growing under capitalism as it has always done.

No, I'll take it up with you, you used the information when you could have disregarded it for the tripe it is. The income of the poor always rises, it doesn't mean they're not in poverty because they get more than $1.25 after 20 years. Does $1.25 buy as much as it did 20 years ago?
What does it matter where the $50 comes from, collecting cans for scrap for all I know, but it's so great to know that $50AU a week is not living in poverty, maybe you should try it. You'll be rich, over 4 times the poverty line. Thank god for capitalism!

First to me poverty is when you are unable to afford the basics (food, water and shelter) in your county.

now look As for poverty, under capitalism, no poor man is prohibited from creating a fortune (look at in late 19th century and early twentieth century America how hundreds of really “poor” immigrants, who could not even speak a word of English, came to America and within a generation were America’s newest elite and they did it without the government and outs) and this is what we have seen since 1977 with reducing 1 billion that are now able to live a normal age.

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Pantheon

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #356 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:25am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:18am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:11am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:05am:

Setanta wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

[i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.

So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.

1 billion not in poverty now because their [b]income has increase to the point they are no longer in 'poverty'

In international terms if you live in AUS living on $50 No your not living in 'poverty' and if you don't like it take it up with the UN Cool

, plus where is he getting the $50 from?

The point was that the wealth of the poor and needy is growing under capitalism as it has always done.

as usual - factually incorrect and standard capitalist dogma.

How deep was this delusional viewpoint rammed into your skull Ahovking?

Would you like to provide evidence to disprove my claim..

How can you make a claim about something you can't even define properly and honestly?

do you mean Capitalism?

Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.

Under capitalism the state is separated from economics (production and trade), just like the state is separated from religion.

What is the purpose of government under capitalism?

It is to protect rights that governments are instituted. A proper government’s only responsibility is to protect the rights of the individual, by banning the initiation of force, thus making all relations between men peaceful, i.e., free from the threat of violence and fraud.

In a political context, freedom has only one specific meaning — freedom from the initiation of force by other men. By initiation I mean those who start the use of force to achieve their ends, i.e., a bank robber. Only the initiation of force against a man can stop his mind, thus rendering it useless as a means of survival. Only by the initiation of force can a man be: prevented from speaking, or robbed of his possessions, or murdered. Only through the initiation of force can a man’s rights be violated.

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\|dev\|null Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4434 Gender:	Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? Reply #357 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:29am Why don't you credit your sources? Ayn Rand? Yea gods! Individual rights at the expense of destroying society!
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #358 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:36am

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:25am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:18am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:11am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:11am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 9:05am:

Setanta wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:52am:

Pantheon wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 8:30am:

[i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.

So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.

1 billion not in poverty now because their [b]income has increase to the point they are no longer in 'poverty'

In international terms if you live in AUS living on $50 No your not living in 'poverty' and if you don't like it take it up with the UN Cool

, plus where is he getting the $50 from?

The point was that the wealth of the poor and needy is growing under capitalism as it has always done.

as usual - factually incorrect and standard capitalist dogma.

How deep was this delusional viewpoint rammed into your skull Ahovking?

Would you like to provide evidence to disprove my claim..

How can you make a claim about something you can't even define properly and honestly?

do you mean Capitalism?

Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.

Under capitalism the state is separated from economics (production and trade), just like the state is separated from religion.

What is the purpose of government under capitalism?

It is to protect rights that governments are instituted. A proper government’s only responsibility is to protect the rights of the individual, by banning the initiation of force, thus making all relations between men peaceful, i.e., free from the threat of violence and fraud.

In a political context, freedom has only one specific meaning — freedom from the initiation of force by other men. By initiation I mean those who start the use of force to achieve their ends, i.e., a bank robber. Only the initiation of force against a man can stop his mind, thus rendering it useless as a means of survival. Only by the initiation of force can a man be: prevented from speaking, or robbed of his possessions, or murdered. Only through the initiation of force can a man’s rights be violated.

Capitalism is just another economic model, like the barter system.

It's about WHO controls the wealth, short term profit, narrow market share oligopolies, generating externalities for others to bear, maintaining the class system, inefficiency in production, theft, and the promotion of immoral criminal activities.

Even Capone knew this Ahovking you rotting putrid slab of ignorant clown maggot droppings

How is your little "ofcause" poll coming alone you bearded smelly freak sloth

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #359 - Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:40am

|dev|null wrote on Nov 7^th, 2013 at 11:29am:

Why don't you credit your sources? Ayn Rand? Yea gods! Individual rights at the expense of destroying society! Cheesy

....destroying society is not enough. Its a fascist ideology that destroys everything in its path, including itself in the end. Its self destructive and Unnatural.

The corporate capitalist socio-psychopaths have taken over the asylum

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Poll
Question: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Yes, ofcause. 18 (72.0%) No, it doesnt 7 (28.0%) Total votes: 25 « Created by: Pantheon on: Oct 29^th, 2013 at 9:31am »