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Poll Poll
Question: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Yes, ofcause.    
  18 (72.0%)
No, it doesnt    
  7 (28.0%)




Total votes: 25
« Created by: Pantheon on: Oct 29th, 2013 at 9:31am »

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Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? (Read 59556 times)
Pantheon
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #360 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:45am
 
|dev|null wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:29am:
Why don't you credit your sources?  Ayn Rand?  Yea gods!  Individual rights at the expense of destroying society! Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy


Google....Its really not hard, plus im on my phone and its difficult at best!
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Pantheon
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #361 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:52am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:36am:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:25am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:18am:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:11am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 9:11am:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 9:05am:
Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:52am:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:30am:
[i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.


So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.


1 billion not in poverty now because their [b]income has increase to the point they are no longer in 'poverty
'

In international terms if you live in AUS living on $50 No your not living in 'poverty' and if you don't like it take it up with the UN  Cool, plus where is he getting the $50 from?

The point was that the wealth of the poor and needy is growing under capitalism as it has always done.


as usual - factually incorrect and standard capitalist dogma.

How deep was this delusional viewpoint rammed into your skull Ahovking?


Would you like to provide evidence to disprove my claim..


How can you make a claim about something you can't even define properly and honestly?



do you mean Capitalism?

Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.

Under capitalism the state is separated from economics (production and trade), just like the state is separated from religion.

What is the purpose of government under capitalism?

It is to protect rights that governments are instituted. A proper government’s only responsibility is to protect the rights of the individual, by banning the initiation of force, thus making all relations between men peaceful, i.e., free from the threat of violence and fraud.

In a political context, freedom has only one specific meaning — freedom from the initiation of force by other men. By initiation I mean those who start the use of force to achieve their ends, i.e., a bank robber. Only the initiation of force against a man can stop his mind, thus rendering it useless as a means of survival. Only by the initiation of force can a man be: prevented from speaking, or robbed of his possessions, or murdered. Only through the initiation of force can a man’s rights be violated.


Capitalism is just another economic model, like the barter system.

It's about WHO controls the wealth, short term profit, narrow market share oligopolies, generating externalities for others to bear, maintaining the class system, inefficiency in production, theft, and the promotion of immoral criminal activities.

Even Capone knew this Ahovking you rotting putrid slab of ignorant clown maggot droppings

How is your little "ofcause" poll coming alone you bearded smelly freak sloth



No one controls the Wealth.. it is true capitalism is just another economic model, like the barter system however socialism is just another failed theory that has been tired and tired and has failed and failed.

Wealth is not a “collective resource” to be distributed by some totalitarian or his cronies, but is produced by individuals. Wealth belongs to the individual who produced it. It is not an amorphous public good to be distributed by looters for the aid of moochers.

If many individuals took part in that production, each deserves his share in accordance to how much of it they produced — as mutually agreed upon amongst themselves by their own free-will. The principle in such instances being: those who produced less, receive less, those who produced more, receive more. A man can neither demand more then he deserves because he is full of “greed”, or demand more then he deserves, because he feels “need.” All he can demand is what the market — the uncoerced judgment of others — will offer him. What is the name of such a principle? It is justice — the judge in all such cases being the marketplace.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #362 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:53am
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:45am:
|dev|null wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:29am:
Why don't you credit your sources?  Ayn Rand?  Yea gods!  Individual rights at the expense of destroying society! Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy




Google....Its really not hard, plus im on my phone and its difficult at best!


Ah the google king.

Now I know where you get your garbage from.

You should be utterly ashamed of yourself when you further spread and contaminate forums with deceptions, delusional slave based doctrines and excrement.

Even your "ofcause" poll seems to be struggling you putrid foul odorous fascist weasel
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #363 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 12:06pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:53am:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:45am:
|dev|null wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:29am:
Why don't you credit your sources?  Ayn Rand?  Yea gods!  Individual rights at the expense of destroying society! Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy




Google....Its really not hard, plus im on my phone and its difficult at best!


Ah the google king.

Now I know where you get your garbage from.

You should be utterly ashamed of yourself when you further spread and contaminate forums with deceptions, delusional slave based doctrines and excrement.

Even your "ofcause" poll seems to be struggling you putrid foul odorous fascist weasel


Your avoiding reality, what evidence can you shows that socialist system did do a better job than capitalism system? 

Im not talking about theory here but the actual application or use of the idea of socialist ..
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #364 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 12:15pm
 
I've got about 4 replies I'm currently writing but I'm a bit busy at the moment so have a little patience. In the mean time could I ask you guys to clarify a few terms so we are on the same page.


Value - Subjective or not? Agree or disagree?

Money - Do you guys understand the three things money represents? Scarcity, Subjective value, resource/time/energy/labour costs. Agree or disagree?

Theft - Immoral or not (there is obviously a grey area in all ideas such as someone starving stealing an apple to live etc)

Threatening people with violence to get them to do what you want involuntarily - Moral or Immoral? I say Immoral agree or disagree?

Corporations - State created state mandated state subsidized state given special privileges, limited liability, bias court system that favours the rich. Agree or disagree?

Federal Reserve Fiat/Fractional reserve banking - US government handed the control of the monetary supply to a single entity the federal reserve, no other entity may control the money supply, no competing american currency is allowed only US dollars are legal tender etc, so federal reserve is state created and competition in banking is restricted. Agree or disagree?

Current system - Current system is NOT free market capitalism, what are we going to label it? So far I'm getting crony corporate fascism will that suffice when referring to the current system? Agree/Disagree? (We need to distinguish the differences between the current system and free market capitalism to have a clear debate)

Property - Do you agree with the capitalist definition of property that you own yourself, your actions, the effects of your actions and can therefore voluntarily acquire land, factories, houses, toys, lawn mower etc or do you go with the socialist view of Private property VS Possessions? IE you can own a tooth brush but you can't own vacant land or a means of production that other people use ie employees? (If you go with the socialist view I'd like to pick two bones with you Smiley )

Anyways I'll get those replies done when I've got some more time.

EDIT: Also if you wouldn't mind just for clarification, what ideology or view you have? There's this miscommunication where I'm being accused of defending the current system and vice versa. Would I be correct in saying that we have three views atm: Free market capitalism being held to scrutiny, the current sytem (see above) and what ever view/ideology you guys hold?

So in a conversation I can note who is defending the current system and who has a different view so we can see the clear three way in a particular conversation. Cheers.
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« Last Edit: Nov 7th, 2013 at 12:23pm by Vuk11 »  
 
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #365 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:10pm
 
Does one support the delusional so called RIGHTS of the elite tyrants and arrogant aggressive Royal lineage?

...

or those of the unwilling victims?

...

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #366 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:15pm
 
Does a society reward one person with billions

...

and yet cannot provide food and safety for a child
...
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #367 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:16pm
 
The above is a violation of both the non-aggression principle and property rights, non of which are to do with capitalism but more to do with coercive monopolies using violence to rule over others.

Good to see you've turned to appeals to emotions rather than logic though. Perhaps you should change your name to Chimp_emotion? Just a suggestion.
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1381289850048.jpg (46 KB | 39 )
1381289850048.jpg
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #368 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:20pm
 
This is what they defend because of their indoctrination, bigotry, ignorance and elitist arrogant racism
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Pantheon
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #369 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 3:02pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:20pm:
This is what they defend because of their indoctrination, bigotry, ignorance and elitist arrogant racism


Vuk11 is right The images are a violation of both the non-aggression principle and property rights, non of which are to do with capitalism but more to do with coercive monopolies using violence to rule over others.

Your ignorance is typical of socialists and could be the reason why while capitalist system have been so successful, socialist system have failed one after the other.

Your seeing a hen (Corporatism or Cronyism) and calling it a duck (Capitalism), they are two different systems.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Pantheon
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #370 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 3:02pm
 
Oh and Chimp try doing the below..

Vuk11 wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 12:15pm:
I've got about 4 replies I'm currently writing but I'm a bit busy at the moment so have a little patience. In the mean time could I ask you guys to clarify a few terms so we are on the same page.


Value - Subjective or not? Agree or disagree?

Money - Do you guys understand the three things money represents? Scarcity, Subjective value, resource/time/energy/labour costs. Agree or disagree?

Theft - Immoral or not (there is obviously a grey area in all ideas such as someone starving stealing an apple to live etc)

Threatening people with violence to get them to do what you want involuntarily - Moral or Immoral? I say Immoral agree or disagree?

Corporations - State created state mandated state subsidized state given special privileges, limited liability, bias court system that favours the rich. Agree or disagree?

Federal Reserve Fiat/Fractional reserve banking - US government handed the control of the monetary supply to a single entity the federal reserve, no other entity may control the money supply, no competing american currency is allowed only US dollars are legal tender etc, so federal reserve is state created and competition in banking is restricted. Agree or disagree?

Current system - Current system is NOT free market capitalism, what are we going to label it? So far I'm getting crony corporate fascism will that suffice when referring to the current system? Agree/Disagree? (We need to distinguish the differences between the current system and free market capitalism to have a clear debate)

Property - Do you agree with the capitalist definition of property that you own yourself, your actions, the effects of your actions and can therefore voluntarily acquire land, factories, houses, toys, lawn mower etc or do you go with the socialist view of Private property VS Possessions? IE you can own a tooth brush but you can't own vacant land or a means of production that other people use ie employees? (If you go with the socialist view I'd like to pick two bones with you Smiley )

Anyways I'll get those replies done when I've got some more time.

EDIT: Also if you wouldn't mind just for clarification, what ideology or view you have? There's this miscommunication where I'm being accused of defending the current system and vice versa. Would I be correct in saying that we have three views atm: Free market capitalism being held to scrutiny, the current sytem (see above) and what ever view/ideology you guys hold?

So in a conversation I can note who is defending the current system and who has a different view so we can see the clear three way in a particular conversation. Cheers.



Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 1:20pm:
This is what they defend because of their indoctrination, bigotry, ignorance and elitist arrogant racism


Would you like to provide any evidence for you Claim!
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #371 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 3:07pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 3:02pm:
Would you like to provide any evidence for you Claim!


Actually I don't need to present any evidence

Your posting history is enough
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #372 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 5:06pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 12:06pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:53am:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:45am:
|dev|null wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:29am:
Why don't you credit your sources?  Ayn Rand?  Yea gods!  Individual rights at the expense of destroying society! Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy




Google....Its really not hard, plus im on my phone and its difficult at best!


Ah the google king.

Now I know where you get your garbage from.

You should be utterly ashamed of yourself when you further spread and contaminate forums with deceptions, delusional slave based doctrines and excrement.

Even your "ofcause" poll seems to be struggling you putrid foul odorous fascist weasel


Your avoiding reality, what evidence can you shows that socialist system did do a better job than capitalism system? 

Im not talking about theory here but the actual application or use of the idea of socialist ..


Me, I'd go for the Nordic Model. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model Before you whine about wiki, read it and click the little numbers like[1] and if you feel the need see what is being used as reference material.

Quote:
The Nordic Model however is not a single identical set of policies and rules in every country; each of the Nordic countries has its own economic and social models, sometimes with large differences from its neighbors. Some Nordic countries, for example, have experimented with free market mechanisms in the past 20 years. Sweden's neo-liberal policies, such as reducing the role of the public sector over the last decades, have resulted in the fastest growth in inequality of any OECD economy.[8] However, Sweden still remains more equal than most societies.[9]


See what happened to Sweden when the capitalists got their way with "free market mechanisms"? You know when Australia was a fairer country back in the '70s we tended to follow the Nordic countries in social policies. Come the 80's we got sucked in by Thatcherism and Reaganomics and it's been down hill since.

edit: Back before the '80s it only took one income to keep a family, buy a home, now you're lucky if you can do it with two. My mum worked part-time. Not because she had to but because she wanted to. Try that on the average wage now and remember most people don't earn anywhere near the average wage.
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« Last Edit: Nov 7th, 2013 at 5:17pm by Setanta »  
 
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BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #373 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 5:46pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:52am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:36am:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:25am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:18am:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:11am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 9:11am:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 9:05am:
Setanta wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:52am:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 8:30am:
[i]In 1990, there were more than 2 billion people throughout the globe living under the international poverty line of $1.25 a day. By 2010, 1 billion of those people had risen out of poverty! This is an example of the positive impact economic freedom has on the world.


So those 1 billion not in poverty now get $1.26 a a day after 20 years and they're not in poverty any more? If someone was getting $50 a week in Au, is that not living in poverty?

You don't see that the "international poverty line" is arbitrary bull? Talk about stacking the deck.


1 billion not in poverty now because their [b]income has increase to the point they are no longer in 'poverty
'

In international terms if you live in AUS living on $50 No your not living in 'poverty' and if you don't like it take it up with the UN  Cool, plus where is he getting the $50 from?

The point was that the wealth of the poor and needy is growing under capitalism as it has always done.


as usual - factually incorrect and standard capitalist dogma.

How deep was this delusional viewpoint rammed into your skull Ahovking?


Would you like to provide evidence to disprove my claim..


How can you make a claim about something you can't even define properly and honestly?



do you mean Capitalism?

Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.

Under capitalism the state is separated from economics (production and trade), just like the state is separated from religion.

What is the purpose of government under capitalism?

It is to protect rights that governments are instituted. A proper government’s only responsibility is to protect the rights of the individual, by banning the initiation of force, thus making all relations between men peaceful, i.e., free from the threat of violence and fraud.

In a political context, freedom has only one specific meaning — freedom from the initiation of force by other men. By initiation I mean those who start the use of force to achieve their ends, i.e., a bank robber. Only the initiation of force against a man can stop his mind, thus rendering it useless as a means of survival. Only by the initiation of force can a man be: prevented from speaking, or robbed of his possessions, or murdered. Only through the initiation of force can a man’s rights be violated.


Capitalism is just another economic model, like the barter system.

It's about WHO controls the wealth, short term profit, narrow market share oligopolies, generating externalities for others to bear, maintaining the class system, inefficiency in production, theft, and the promotion of immoral criminal activities.

Even Capone knew this Ahovking you rotting putrid slab of ignorant clown maggot droppings

How is your little "ofcause" poll coming alone you bearded smelly freak sloth



No one controls the Wealth.. it is true capitalism is just another economic model, like the barter system however socialism is just another failed theory that has been tired and tired and has failed and failed.

Wealth is not a “collective resource” to be distributed by some totalitarian or his cronies, but is produced by individuals. Wealth belongs to the individual who produced it. It is not an amorphous public good to be distributed by looters for the aid of moochers.

If many individuals took part in that production, each deserves his share in accordance to how much of it they produced — as mutually agreed upon amongst themselves by their own free-will. The principle in such instances being: those who produced less, receive less, those who produced more, receive more. A man can neither demand more then he deserves because he is full of “greed”, or demand more then he deserves, because he feels “need.” All he can demand is what the market — the uncoerced judgment of others — will offer him. What is the name of such a principle? It is justice — the judge in all such cases being the marketplace.

No individual produces wealth- that's the point of the concept that is ECONOMIC EXCHANGE  Cool
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #374 - Nov 7th, 2013 at 6:15pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 11:10am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Nov 7th, 2013 at 9:37am:
Yes indeed I think he is worried and for good reason.  Capitalism is unable to cope with the environmental challenges and diminishing resources that the world is facing and will get worse very quickly. As the water supply diminishes and becomes more polluted he wants to be sure that you cant tell him to stop fracking to the detriment of the rest of us.  He wants to be sure that he can still open up more Fukashimas without you saying he cant even if he fills the oceans with nuclear waste.  He wants to make sure that the wealth of those generating this absurd propaganda is protected even while the rest of us go hungry because of diminishing water and food supplies due to an unruly market place whose only moral compass is "me" "me"" "me" "me"" me" "me".  Capitalism is destroying our planet, its destroying our communities, our families our humanity.  its making us one dimensional as if the only thing we human beings are about is buying and selling and money.   Indeed Ahovking is so fanatic that our morals are really just about buying and selling, thats all we are, buying and selling automatons.  And the fanaticism has reached fever pitch and I think it is indeed because they're scared that their greedy selfish ways are numbered and scared they should be because the world cant afford them any more.      


First Google 'sentence' and try using them

second, Your failing once again to understand capitalism,

Capitalism is the system of individual rights. It is the greatest protector of man’s environment’ (as opposed to the protection of the environment at the expense of man’s well-being).

Under capitalism all property is privately owned. If you pollute your own property that is your business (but in doing so you reduce the property value which would not be in your self-interest). However, the minute your pollution spreads to another person’s property, and causes objectively provable damage, the owners of that property can sue you as a matter of right.

The right to property is not the privilege to damage or pollute the property of others. Witness that the privately owned locks and streams of Scotland are far cleaner than the government owned cesspools of socialist India.

As for the disposing of the pollution of factories, this is a technological solution — and capitalism, as the system of technological progress, is the only system that can provide such a solution,

The future, Natural Capitalism: Creating the Next Industrial Revolution:

The Four Principles of Natural Capitalism
1. RADICALLY INCREASE THE PRODUCTIVITY OF NATURAL RESOURCES
Through fundamental changes in both production design and technology, farsighted companies are developing ways to make natural resources — energy, minerals, water, forests — stretch five, ten, even 100 times further than they do today. The resulting savings in operational costs, capital investment, and time can help natural capitalists implement the other three principles.

2. SHIFT TO BIOLOGICALLY INSPIRED PRODUCTION MODELS AND MATERIALS
Natural capitalism seeks not merely to reduce waste but to eliminate the very concept of waste. In closed-loop production systems, modeled on nature's designs, every output either is returned harmlessly to the ecosystem as a nutrient, like compost, or becomes an input for another manufacturing process. Industrial processes that emulate the benign chemistry of nature reduce dependence on nonrenewable inputs, make possible often phenomenally more efficient production, and can result in elegantly simple products that rival anything man-made.

3. MOVE TO A "SERVICE-AND-FLOW" BUSINESS MODEL
The business model of traditional manufacturing rests on the sale of goods. In the new model, value is instead delivered as a continuous flow of services—such as providing illumination rather than selling light bulbs. This aligns the interests of providers and customers in ways that reward them for resource productivity.

4. REINVEST IN NATURAL CAPITAL
Capital begets more capital; a company that depletes its own capital is eroding the basis of its future prosperity. Pressures on business to restore, sustain, and expand natural capital are mounting as human needs expand, the costs of deteriorating ecosystems rise, and the environmental awareness of consumers increases. Fortunately, these pressures all create business opportunity


What garbage.  All assertion and no facts.  Simple stupid baseless statements totally contrary to what we have all seen played out in out life times. Go sue Tepco for Fukushima and tell me how that fixes the environmental damage they have done.  Externalities mate.  Pass on our filth for everyone else to deal with while we count our money. 
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