|dev|null wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:56am:


That's the idea the USSR had...and Cuba...and Vietnam..however it never terns out the way its meant too.

Pantheon wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 11:02am:


It was the idea but their execution was flawed.  What they ended up with State Capitalism, not pure Communism or even Socialism.

Australia used to be a very socialised place.  Many Russian and East European emigres came to Australia after the end of the Cold War because they believe it was "capitalism with a human face".   We used to believe in co-operation and helping one another and keeping the employers honest through the use of the Arbitration Commission and other organs which made sure that workers were paid a fair wage.  Government co-operated with workers through "The Accord".

All now gone under the assault of the the ilLiberal Party and it's neo-Liberal Economics.  They are more Freidmanite than they follows of Smith.   

The Big End of town now controls Australia, we are all slaves to "The Economy" and Queen Gina and King Clive call us "lazy" despite working  the longest hours in the OECD and having fewer holidays than most of our competitors.  They believe we are "overpaid" and should be working for what Africans do!   And you join in their chorus by declaring you don't believe we are being exploited by a system which is expressly designed to exploit workers?   You're a fool!   

Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:59am:


you see capitalism as corporatized fascist regimes so i did give you an answer

In those examples, the government had NO intervention with the economy, they just allowed workers and employers do their thing, without government regulations.

Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 29^th, 2013 at 10:30pm:


Ha so the socialist totalitarian tyrant has emerged...."off to the salt mines with you for defying the Collective" he says........but nope I think I'll choose not to be gone today (being a freedom and enterprising loving capitalist) I'll stand on the wall and continue to hold back the evil pinko commie hordes

http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/exagerent/guerre/13.gifhttp://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/exagerent/guerre/warior.gif

....and BTW it's   filthy smelly freak maggot SIR to you plebby 

Quote:

To understand this view, we need to remember time preference is not applicable (or not allowed). From the socialist perspective, any difference in value between input and output is either fraud or theft (to use libertarian terminology). If you invest labor (input) to achieve a value of $100 and receive pay (output) of $95 dollars you are being oppressed.
This is where capitalism becomes “evil”, and I’m glad Per Bylund can explain this because every anarcho-socialist I have spoken to can not explain this or they refuse to do so. Instead, they choose to argue over definitions. This also means that by the mere act of offering a job, a person is conspiring to commit a crime. Bylund also explains:

Success Council
The analysis, however, is fundamentally wrong, and it is so simply because socialists don't understand time preference. It is of value (but not necessarily monetary value) to many a worker frequently to receive a fixed amount of pay for invested labor instead of taking the risks of producing, marketing, and selling a product in the market place (even if the enterprise is not carried out individually but in cooperation with other workers).
It is also true in reverse: the "capitalist" values money now more than money later; thus, profits at a later time need to be greater than labor costs now to "break even." The point here is that if a worker would voluntarily choose between multiple different alternatives there is reason to believe employment is sometimes (or, in perhaps often) an attractive choice.
The socialist not only ignores time preference and voluntary work but the division of labor and market risks. Being able to work for a regular paycheck rather than acting as a sort of “capital-less entrepreneur” is a very attractive thing to most people. Some people prefer, by their own choice to generate $100 worth of products that will go to the market in a month and get $95 now. It is hard to research such history, but it is doubtful that the first “job” was government mandated or done by slavery. In fact, it more than likely originated in the family unit where parents delegated work to children. Or in tribes when a tribe leader may have delegated work to hunters, “Got get food so we can eat.” This was a spontaneous and mutual interaction. It was done without government, and instead private individuals. It was free trade. Anarchy and capitalism.

Add this with the fact that value is subjective, and all of the sudden when socialists say, “Individuals must be paid the value of their actual labor,” the answer is, “According to whom?” $5 holds different value to different people due purely to individual perception. If a person values having a steady job by the amount of the profit that is being “taken” from him, who is to say that is invalid?

To the socialist anarchist is the delivery of a pizza, not worth any sort of payment? He has not produced anything. His pay normally comes from the production of many farmers, between them are truck drivers and cooks at the least. Who is to say that the help of that delivery guy is not worth a bit of pay? What about the managers?

If all men are free individuals, why can the socialist anarchist tell them what they can and can’t do with their own bodies? Only the individual can truly make decisions on what is best for him, and only the individual can subjectively make assessments of value for himself. To the anarcho-capitalist it is perfectly OK for someone to make the individual decision, to refrain from regular work, but they must live with those consequences and if most people prefer to work, the socialist must compete with that. It may sound “unfair” but this is natural spontaneous order.


Making claims about what a person should and shouldn’t do, or what they should “earn”, is not an anarchist way of thinking. It rejects the right to self ownership. Employment and capital are not state functions. They are a part of what makes humans human. To claim otherwise is wrong.

Socialists like to think working a job for an owner is wage slavery and that what a worker creates is exactly what they are worth. The following is a criticism of Anarcho-socialism by an Anarcho-capitalist but I think it holds it's own in the broad view of each and as a defense to capitalism:

Capitalism is not a political ideology - its merely just another economic model like the barter system (but like all economic models they can be framed within social and political structures. A good example of this is the Corporately run US pseudo capitalist system and the STATE run pseudo capitalist system in China - both systems are tyrannical and fascist in nature)

I wonder who made these comments?

“From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.”

“The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them.”

"Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original sources of all wealth -- the soil and the labourer."