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Poll Poll
Question: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Yes, ofcause.    
  18 (72.0%)
No, it doesnt    
  7 (28.0%)




Total votes: 25
« Created by: Pantheon on: Oct 29th, 2013 at 9:31am »

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Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? (Read 59350 times)
Pantheon
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #75 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:09pm
 
|dev|null wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 12:35pm:
Pantheon wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 11:24am:
So if all 29 socialist state have failed because their execution was flawed what makes you think the 30th will be the charm.


Why shouldn't I? 

I admit that it may take 29 tries to get it right.  Some did it better than others, that doesn't they were all complete failures.

Quote:
I think your the fool be believe the 30th times is the charm


By all means do so.  I think you're a fool to believe that capitalism doesn't exploit workers.

I notice you've ignored the examples I provided.  Why? Too embarrassing?   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin


Embarrassed? its laughable, from the very start we were a capitalist state, however labor have been pushing for more socialist policys/programs and when they fail it gives government the opportunity to say 'we better step it' which cause's every more problems, then the socialist say see capitalism is failing we better take more control the is problem contine to get worst, GFC is the perfect example of this.   

We are also not slaves, you have a choose to say to an employer sorry your not offering high enough wages ill look else where... how is that slavery to the Economy?

So far all i have learnt that "capitalism" is widely misunderstood; this allows socialists to implement their idiotic programs which are doomed to failure, and then blame it on "capitalism" when they do fail.

Example: the central bank system is a socialist program (one of the ten planks of Marx's Communist Manifesto) which interferes with the interest rate, usually suppressing it below where the market would have it by allowing banks of deposit to lend new money into existence (via the fraudulent practice known as "fractional reserve banking"), which leads to bad investment decisions; when those decisions are exposed as having been bad, you get a "financial crisis." It's caused in the main by central banking, which is about as anti-capitalist as you can get, but "capitalism" gets the blame because banking is about money and capitalism is misunderstood as being about money, therefore central banking is about capitalism, right?! (Wrong!)
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #76 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:37pm
 
Does the private sector fight war?  Wink
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #77 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:39pm
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:37pm:
Does the private sector fight war?  Wink


What do you mean, in what context?
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #78 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:03pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:09pm:
Embarrassed? its laughable, from the very start we were a capitalist state, however labor have been pushing for more socialist policys/programs and when they fail it gives government the opportunity to say 'we better step it' which cause's every more problems, then the socialist say see capitalism is failing we better take more control the is problem contine to get worst, GFC is the perfect example of this. 


I provided several clear examples of how Capitalism exploits workers in Australia.  You have ignored them.  Could it be you don't want to admit you were wrong?  You look very foolish by doing it.  Here they are again:

Quote:
The numerous attempts to remove Penalty Rates for lower paid works in the hospitality industry.

The numerous examples of mine owners who have forced safety standards to be lowered (such as evacuation of mines during blasting).

"Work Choices", the reintroduction of the Building and Construction Commission - efforts to diminish the power of collectivised bargaining for workers and the use of "individual contracts" by Government.


Quote:
 
We are also not slaves, you have a choose to say to an employer sorry your not offering high enough wages ill look else where... how is that slavery to the Economy?


That works in times of plenty and areas where jobs are plentiful.  Workers are placed at a disadvantage when high unemployment occurs.  That is where the unequal power relationship between employer and employee manifests itself.  That is where Unions and collectivised bargaining redresses that.

Quote:
[i]So far all i have learnt that "capitalism" is widely misunderstood; this allows socialists to implement their idiotic programs which are doomed to failure, and then blame it on "capitalism" when they do fail.


Then you haven't been paying attention.  You've started with a pre-conceived position and refuse to accept anything which doesn't suit your viewpoint.

You asked for examples of exploitation.  I provided them.  Address them or runaway!   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #79 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:30pm
 
|dev|null wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 10:56am:
What if, instead of gambling with our livelihoods we co-operated and helped each, particularly those in need or less well-off than the majority?   Why should some individuals be able to accumulate more wealth than they ever use or need at the expense of others who barely have enough to live on and must struggle all their lives?


What people forget is the whole point of voluntary trade for mutual benefit IS co-operation. The key points to make is that it is voluntary (free choice) and for mutually perceived benefit (win - win in eyes of the parties participating).

People also forget that wealth is accumulated a lot of times so someone can leave behind something for their children. An important thing that is overlooked is what comes in-between. During the process of the wealth accumulation, people invest to create wealth, they create the factories that give people products and jobs, not because they are exploiting workers but due to the division of labor, division of risk and time preference.

Charity was much more prevalent before the rise of the welfare state, who is going to be anywhere near as charitable now that the government taxes them to look after these people, why spend extra when it's being forcibly taken from to be forcibly charitable?

For arguments sake also, imagine 0 taxation, this would obviously mean things cost a lot less and people have more in the pocket from which to be charitable with. The failure the state makes with welfare is that they assess people with a general criteria, whereas charity, family, mutual aid and insurance etc all assess people depending in individual circumstance with individual information and the information of those around this person. Communities will always be able to provide aid more tailored to an individual than any central authority.

Welfare is just one more failure to "help the poor" by central authorities in their failed central planning of society. People don't seem to realize that the act of voluntary trade between individuals IE the market becomes multiplied by all the people participating, with close to 7 billion people all making decisions on both needs and wants that is a lot of information no central authority can have, when things are left to flow demand is able to be met. This is where people come up with the whole "the free market will fix it" because where there is demand there is opportunity, where there is free choice their is opportunity.

Humans need to be free to create opportunity and take advantage of opportunity. This is how you help people, by getting out of their way and the way of others so that people can interact with each other to satisfy their wants and need. The ONLY thing a government does at it's base is interfere with this process, it uses violent coercion to enforce restrictions, and funds itself through theft. Governments quite often do two things:

1. They release the blockage and allow the river of the market to flow and claim "we did that! we made that happen!" When all they did was release restriction
2. They steal from others forcibly and pay for something to get done, they claim the benefit of this for themselves, when A. It was the tax payers that paid for it, B. There are reasons why things don't get done C. They are now interfering with a spontaneous natural order, this disrupts the order and creates problems down the line.

There is this ridiculous assumption that because the government does it, ONLY the government can do it. I can't think of anything more naive than this thought....except maybe the whole "if we can just elect the right people to control the violent monopoly they will somehow know how to solve our complex social problems more than the people themselves".
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #80 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:40pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:39pm:
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:37pm:
Does the private sector fight war?  Wink


What do you mean, in what context?

The private sector exploits resources...it doesn't share and can't fight wars for the common good greater than its self interest. It only exists as a tool for the state unless it wishes to chance its hand in the shadows  Wink
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #81 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:50pm
 
|dev|null wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:03pm:
Pantheon wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:09pm:
Embarrassed? its laughable, from the very start we were a capitalist state, however labor have been pushing for more socialist policys/programs and when they fail it gives government the opportunity to say 'we better step it' which cause's every more problems, then the socialist say see capitalism is failing we better take more control the is problem contine to get worst, GFC is the perfect example of this. 


I provided several clear examples of how Capitalism exploits workers in Australia.  You have ignored them.  Could it be you don't want to admit you were wrong?  You look very foolish by doing it.  Here they are again:

Quote:
The numerous attempts to remove Penalty Rates for lower paid works in the hospitality industry.

The numerous examples of mine owners who have forced safety standards to be lowered (such as evacuation of mines during blasting).

"Work Choices", the reintroduction of the Building and Construction Commission - efforts to diminish the power of collectivised bargaining for workers and the use of "individual contracts" by Government.


Quote:
 
We are also not slaves, you have a choose to say to an employer sorry your not offering high enough wages ill look else where... how is that slavery to the Economy?


That works in times of plenty and areas where jobs are plentiful.  Workers are placed at a disadvantage when high unemployment occurs.  That is where the unequal power relationship between employer and employee manifests itself.  That is where Unions and collectivised bargaining redresses that.

Quote:
[i]So far all i have learnt that "capitalism" is widely misunderstood; this allows socialists to implement their idiotic programs which are doomed to failure, and then blame it on "capitalism" when they do fail.


Then you haven't been paying attention.  You've started with a pre-conceived position and refuse to accept anything which doesn't suit your viewpoint.

You asked for examples of exploitation.  I provided them.  Address them or runaway!   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin


Oh sorry, i don't know why i'm not seeing updated posts/or i could be looking in the wrong area.

Penalty rates force business to pay increased rate of pay for overtime or for work performed under abnormal conditions, Now for big business they can handy this increase in payment however when times get tough business mainly small business need their employees to sometimes work overtime however thanks to penalty rate few business i worked with even allowed their employees to work overtime (which means a lost of productivity).

However no one is holding a gun to [his employees’] heads forcing them to work weekends, and if they lose their job because they wouldn't work over time then they can sue the business. There shouldn't need to be a Penalty rates both the employee and the employer are grown adults and don't need Government dictating what they should do.

Im ok with no Maybe we should abolish Penalty rates for small business, remember one is holding a gun to [his employees’] heads forcing them to work weekends.

This leads us into rising  cost of living which has been made a lot worst with socialist program like a central bank system which although does have its benefits does enable the government and the banks themselves to interfere interest rate, printing money etc to the point where the value of currency drops and the cost of living increases.
However this is another problem for another topic.

The unequal power relationship between employer and employee is a product of the government...watch the video which explains it.

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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #82 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:52pm
 
The private sector can protect people in many ways, without the need for courts and police.
People can also protect themselves and each other.

Name one war that wasn't propaganda BS, where they didn't justify a hidden agenda with lies about "saving" people?

People have conflicts between one another, or one group to another group, these conflicts can be resolved peacefully in all but the extreme cases of for example theft (forcibly taking back what was stolen if need be) and in the preservation of life.

War on the other hand is fought between states, for state agenda's. If you didn't have states to hide behind (ie country VS country) then conflict is reduced to a personal level. Person/s in conflict with person/s, this can be resolved many ways and a central authority built on violent coercion is NOT the only solution to complex social problems.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #83 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:56pm
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:40pm:
Pantheon wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:39pm:
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:37pm:
Does the private sector fight war?  Wink


What do you mean, in what context?

The private sector exploits resources...it doesn't share and can't fight wars for the common good greater than its self interest. It only exists as a tool for the state unless it wishes to chance its hand in the shadows  Wink


At the same time, public sector often runs at a lose and in the long run create massive dedicate as well the public sector becoming incredibly inefficient which is what we (as well as around the world) are experiencing.

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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #84 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 3:25pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:50pm:
|dev|null wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:03pm:
Pantheon wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:09pm:
Embarrassed? its laughable, from the very start we were a capitalist state, however labor have been pushing for more socialist policys/programs and when they fail it gives government the opportunity to say 'we better step it' which cause's every more problems, then the socialist say see capitalism is failing we better take more control the is problem contine to get worst, GFC is the perfect example of this. 


I provided several clear examples of how Capitalism exploits workers in Australia.  You have ignored them.  Could it be you don't want to admit you were wrong?  You look very foolish by doing it.  Here they are again:

Quote:
The numerous attempts to remove Penalty Rates for lower paid works in the hospitality industry.

The numerous examples of mine owners who have forced safety standards to be lowered (such as evacuation of mines during blasting).

"Work Choices", the reintroduction of the Building and Construction Commission - efforts to diminish the power of collectivised bargaining for workers and the use of "individual contracts" by Government.


Quote:
 
We are also not slaves, you have a choose to say to an employer sorry your not offering high enough wages ill look else where... how is that slavery to the Economy?


That works in times of plenty and areas where jobs are plentiful.  Workers are placed at a disadvantage when high unemployment occurs.  That is where the unequal power relationship between employer and employee manifests itself.  That is where Unions and collectivised bargaining redresses that.

Quote:
[i]So far all i have learnt that "capitalism" is widely misunderstood; this allows socialists to implement their idiotic programs which are doomed to failure, and then blame it on "capitalism" when they do fail.


Then you haven't been paying attention.  You've started with a pre-conceived position and refuse to accept anything which doesn't suit your viewpoint.

You asked for examples of exploitation.  I provided them.  Address them or runaway!   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin


Oh sorry, i don't know why i'm not seeing updated posts/or i could be looking in the wrong area.

Penalty rates force business to pay increased rate of pay for overtime or for work performed under abnormal conditions, Now for big business they can handy this increase in payment however when times get tough business mainly small business need their employees to sometimes work overtime however thanks to penalty rate few business i worked with even allowed their employees to work overtime (which means a lost of productivity).

However no one is holding a gun to [his employees’] heads forcing them to work weekends, and if they lose their job because they wouldn't work over time then they can sue the business. There shouldn't need to be a Penalty rates both the employee and the employer are grown adults and don't need Government dictating what they should do.

Im ok with no Maybe we should abolish Penalty rates for small business, remember one is holding a gun to [his employees’] heads forcing them to work weekends.

This leads us into rising  cost of living which has been made a lot worst with socialist program like a central bank system which although does have its benefits does enable the government and the banks themselves to interfere interest rate, printing money etc to the point where the value of currency drops and the cost of living increases.
However this is another problem for another topic.

The unequal power relationship between employer and employee is a product of the government...watch the video which explains it.



Still two more examples you haven't addressed.

Penalty rates exist because otherwise Employers could demand that their employees work unreasonable hours.  Unions fought for and brought in the 40 hour working week.  Before that employers could and did demand that their employees work 6 or 7 day weeks, 12-18 hour days.

Employers routinely demand "flexibility" from their employees but do not reciprocate nor if they reducing penalty rates or overtime in times of hardship, return those rates in times of plenty.   I have had several jobs where unpaid overtime was expected of me.  I refused to work it.   I am selling  my time to my employer, they cannot expect to get it for free, any more could I expect to purchase their product for free.   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #85 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 7:46pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 29th, 2013 at 7:56pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 29th, 2013 at 7:16pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 29th, 2013 at 3:32pm:
Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Every chance it gets.

I love this allegorical thinking - so medieval. 'Capitalism' exploit. So Chaucer: "The smiler with the knife under the cloak."

You have an idea. You start a business. How do you make it a going concern?
You make a profit
. You wouldn't start the business otherwise.

Would you?



YOU make a profit?




Where do you think the money comes from for your fat-arsed disability pension?

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #86 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 8:13pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 1:09pm:
Embarrassed? its laughable, from the very start we were a capitalist state, however labor have been pushing for more socialist policys/programs and when they fail it gives government the opportunity to say 'we better step it' which cause's every more problems, then the socialist say see capitalism is failing we better take more control the is problem contine to get worst, GFC is the perfect example of this.   


Well, "from the very start" is only partially true.  We have been for most our history what could be best described a "mixed-economy" nation, utilising elements from both Capitalism and Socialism.  We've swung one way or t'other.  In our earliest colonial days, we actually had quite a strange economic system.  The Convicts were wards of the state, effectively with all provided by the state - food, clothing, housing, etc.  Yet, at the same time we had the Rum Corps with their commercial use of Rum as a currency, which could and was used to buy anything and everything or anybody.

As the colonial period progressed we retreated from such Socialism or so it seemed.  By the turn of the century, we introduced such Socialist ideas as the Aged Pension, a Widows Pension, unemployment benefits and so on.  We also introduced the Commonwealth Bank, various land settlement schemes which depended on Government largess and of course Irrigation and other industries.   Indeed, we moved so far to the Left that Lawrence Hartnett, Managing Director of GMH recounted in his biography that when he approached the head of GM in the US for funding for an Australian Car he was told to go away 'cause the head of GM refused to sink "another penny in that god-damned Socialist country!".   Smiley

Throughout the 1940s and 50s and intro the 1960s, when a Tory government was in power, we saw no reduction of Government involvement in the Economy or the everyday lives on most Australians.  By the early 1970s, I can remember the World Congress of Socialist Nations (I think that was the name) being held in Adelaide, with Australia as the host.   The Israeli Prime Minister was one of the main speakers (Israel of course at the time also being quite a Socialist nation).   Australians were, by and large, IMHO, quite comfortable with the elements of Socialism that they had adopted.

Then came the 1980s and the rise of the neo-Liberals.  The "Economic Rationalists", under Hawke-Keating who rolled a lot of that back and opened the door for Howard to carry it even further and brought us where we are today.   Much less Socialism, per se but still a lot of Government regulation and control of the economy, so a long way from Capitalist ideal of a laisser-faire' economy.

You really need to get a better grip on Australian history and political history in particular, Ahovking.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #87 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 8:35pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 12:42pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 12:31pm:
Capitalism is not a political ideology - its merely just another economic model like the barter system (but like all economic models they can be framed within social and political structures. A good example of this is the Corporately run US pseudo capitalist system and the STATE run pseudo capitalist system in China - both systems are tyrannical and fascist in nature)

I wonder who made these comments?

“From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.”

“The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them.”

"Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original sources of all wealth -- the soil and the labourer."


Yes Capitalism is a word for free market economics.
I fail to see how that has anything to do with Socialists lack of understanding of; Economic calculation, time preference and the division of labour.


a very interesting term - free market

do you know of any in the world today?

The issue with capitalism is that it has been coupled with democracy and freedom which is an oxymoron in itself

As I have sated before China and the USA are both pseudo capitalist tyrannical fascist systems

One is run by the state, the other is run by corporations. The difference is semantic and trivially superficial.


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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #88 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 10:03pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 8:35pm:
Vuk11 wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 12:42pm:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 12:31pm:
Capitalism is not a political ideology - its merely just another economic model like the barter system (but like all economic models they can be framed within social and political structures. A good example of this is the Corporately run US pseudo capitalist system and the STATE run pseudo capitalist system in China - both systems are tyrannical and fascist in nature)

I wonder who made these comments?

“From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.”

“The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them.”

"Capitalist production, therefore, develops technology, and the combining together of various processes into a social whole, only by sapping the original sources of all wealth -- the soil and the labourer."


Yes Capitalism is a word for free market economics.
I fail to see how that has anything to do with Socialists lack of understanding of; Economic calculation, time preference and the division of labour.


a very interesting term - free market

do you know of any in the world today?

The issue with capitalism is that it has been coupled with democracy and freedom which is an oxymoron in itself

As I have sated before China and the USA are both pseudo capitalist tyrannical fascist systems

One is run by the state, the other is run by corporations. The difference is semantic and trivially superficial.




Seems like you have a reasonable handle on Reality of this situation, CL!
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #89 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 10:38pm
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 8:35pm:
a very interesting term - free market

do you know of any in the world today?


No a totally free market doesn't exist because it would basically require a stateless society, however we do have a market (not free) and we also have history showing varying degrees of the free market, many different points in history where many different places had varying degrees of freedom/restriction.

History seems to show however that the free'er the market the more prosperous it is in general, a lot (perhaps all) of the great booms in society have been with largely unrestricted markets containing voluntary trade for mutually perceived benefit.

Quote:
The issue with capitalism is that it has been coupled with democracy and freedom which is an oxymoron in itself

As I have sated before China and the USA are both pseudo capitalist tyrannical fascist systems

One is run by the state, the other is run by corporations. The difference is semantic and trivially superficial.




Damn shame really, when people aren't free to pursue their own destiny, not free enough to choose their path interact voluntarily in a peaceful society, damn shame. Our country is mostly accustomed to it though, good little tax cows/sheep we are, except people are struggling a little under the straight jacket of statism whilst trying to hold up the weight of debt.
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