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Question: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?

Yes, ofcause.    
  18 (72.0%)
No, it doesnt    
  7 (28.0%)




Total votes: 25
« Created by: Pantheon on: Oct 29th, 2013 at 9:31am »

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Does Capitalism Exploit Workers? (Read 59290 times)
Chimp_Logic
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #90 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 10:59pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 10:38pm:
[quote author=Chimp_Logic link=1383003074/87#87 date=1383129333]



No a totally free market doesn't exist because it would basically require a stateless society


You appear to be struggling with the reality of who or what rules this so called society of yours.

Don't you remember what Mussolini said?

...

corporate fascists love a strong intrusive state that protects the extremely wealthy from the ravages of free market discipline and the demands for freedom and basic human rights by the working/poor/middle classes.

This class warfare has always ebbed and flowed throughout history.

Corporatised fascist savagery is all there for everyone to witness with their own eyes.

And guess what the corporate mass media does to distract the public away from the people and structures who are thieving their pockets ? (apart from using fear and spin to control their habits and preventing them from unifying and resisting)

Well, vuk11, the mass media ALWAYS directs blame towards the government and political leaders. Then they convince you that no matter which political party gets in, they are all going to do the same thing (which is ironically true in one sense)

Apathy - you must feel utterly resigned to the fact that the political process is useless in enacting genuine change.

And in the meantime, the slaughter continues, the theft continues, the oppression continues....\

This is what you defend in public - your very executioner and jail warden\

well done vuk11

well done you putrid denialist sloth residue stench maggot freak
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #91 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 11:08pm
 
Vuk11 wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 12:16pm:
Socialists like to think working a job for an owner is wage slavery and that what a worker creates is exactly what they are worth. The following is a criticism of Anarcho-socialism by an Anarcho-capitalist but I think it holds it's own in the broad view of each and as a defense to capitalism:

Quote:
To understand this view, we need to remember time preference is not applicable (or not allowed). From the socialist perspective, any difference in value between input and output is either fraud or theft (to use libertarian terminology). If you invest labor (input) to achieve a value of $100 and receive pay (output) of $95 dollars you are being oppressed.
This is where capitalism becomes “evil”, and I’m glad Per Bylund can explain this because every anarcho-socialist I have spoken to can not explain this or they refuse to do so. Instead, they choose to argue over definitions. This also means that by the mere act of offering a job, a person is conspiring to commit a crime. Bylund also explains:

Success Council
The analysis, however, is fundamentally wrong, and it is so simply because socialists don't understand time preference. It is of value (but not necessarily monetary value) to many a worker frequently to receive a fixed amount of pay for invested labor instead of taking the risks of producing, marketing, and selling a product in the market place (even if the enterprise is not carried out individually but in cooperation with other workers).
It is also true in reverse: the "capitalist" values money now more than money later; thus, profits at a later time need to be greater than labor costs now to "break even." The point here is that if a worker would voluntarily choose between multiple different alternatives there is reason to believe employment is sometimes (or, in perhaps often) an attractive choice.
The socialist not only ignores time preference and voluntary work but the division of labor and market risks. Being able to work for a regular paycheck rather than acting as a sort of “capital-less entrepreneur” is a very attractive thing to most people. Some people prefer, by their own choice to generate $100 worth of products that will go to the market in a month and get $95 now. It is hard to research such history, but it is doubtful that the first “job” was government mandated or done by slavery. In fact, it more than likely originated in the family unit where parents delegated work to children. Or in tribes when a tribe leader may have delegated work to hunters, “Got get food so we can eat.” This was a spontaneous and mutual interaction. It was done without government, and instead private individuals. It was free trade. Anarchy and capitalism.

Add this with the fact that value is subjective, and all of the sudden when socialists say, “Individuals must be paid the value of their actual labor,” the answer is, “According to whom?” $5 holds different value to different people due purely to individual perception. If a person values having a steady job by the amount of the profit that is being “taken” from him, who is to say that is invalid?

To the socialist anarchist is the delivery of a pizza, not worth any sort of payment? He has not produced anything. His pay normally comes from the production of many farmers, between them are truck drivers and cooks at the least. Who is to say that the help of that delivery guy is not worth a bit of pay? What about the managers?

If all men are free individuals, why can the socialist anarchist tell them what they can and can’t do with their own bodies? Only the individual can truly make decisions on what is best for him, and only the individual can subjectively make assessments of value for himself. To the anarcho-capitalist it is perfectly OK for someone to make the individual decision, to refrain from regular work, but they must live with those consequences and if most people prefer to work, the socialist must compete with that. It may sound “unfair” but this is natural spontaneous order.


Making claims about what a person should and shouldn’t do, or what they should “earn”, is not an anarchist way of thinking. It rejects the right to self ownership. Employment and capital are not state functions. They are a part of what makes humans human. To claim otherwise is wrong.



I don't know if your Anarcho-capitalist understands Anarcho-socialism. If you look to what I have emboldened, how would that be free trade, Anarchy and capitalism? The hunters in his example were told what to do, when they brought back the meat it would have been shared with the entire tribe, not traded with other members. In tribal societies they all contribute to the wellbeing of the tribe by whatever means each can. The tribe is an organic being not a collection of individuals.

If it was free trade and they traded their catch with other members, the vulnerable of the tribe would suffer, what would the elderly do for their meat, for example? We know elderly, sick and infirm were cared for, not because they were individuals with the capacity to produce something for their share of the hunt but because they were part of the whole. In fact it's much closer to "from each according to his ability to each according to his need."
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #92 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 11:21pm
 
Do any of the Royal family actually work?

How much welfare are they on courtesy of the tax payer?

What is their function?

Are they supreme human beings?

Who are they?

Do their clown excrement release perfumic wafts?

Who the bugger are these freak clowns ?

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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #93 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 11:35pm
 
There's no Anarchoanything. Anarchism is concerned with the structures of a society based on co-operation without rulers or coercive practices. Anarchists are not gangsters. If you can't bear to sit and discuss at the table with people of differing opinions Anarchism isn't your bag.

Capitalism is a big game of MONOPOLY tm. Happens that MONOPOLYtm is fun to play on a Sunday arvo and actually Capitalism was a good idea at the time, (close on 400years ago). But as you're all aware, MONOPOLYtm has an end game, even a very big one that's been running 400Years.

If you don't understand Anarchism it's wise to start reading. Anarchism represents the only soft landing available. Without it things are going to get messy and not in a good way.  Grin
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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #94 - Oct 30th, 2013 at 11:42pm
 
Grey wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 11:35pm:
There's no Anarchoanything. Anarchism is concerned with the structures of a society based on co-operation without rulers or coercive practices. Anarchists are not gangsters. If you can't bear to sit and discuss at the table with people of differing opinions Anarchism isn't your bag.

Capitalism is a big game of MONOPOLY tm. Happens that MONOPOLYtm is fun to play on a Sunday arvo and actually Capitalism was a good idea at the time, (close on 400years ago). But as you're all aware, MONOPOLYtm has an end game, even a very big one that's been running 400Years.

If you don't understand Anarchism it's wise to start reading. Anarchism represents the only soft landing available. Without it things are going to get messy and not in a good way.  Grin 


I know and understand.Wink I was just using the terminology presented in what I quoted, actually copied and pasted them.
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #95 - Oct 31st, 2013 at 2:31am
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Oct 29th, 2013 at 11:19pm:
No thanks.

I have worked for US multi nationals for the last decade and have been profoundly well paid for it.

I have travelled the world, risen and been promoted within the corporates, received decent bonuses, we have nice cars and my little ones will be going to the best schools in the area partly paid for by these capitalistic companies you deride.

Capitalism reflects what is the human nature instinct. To out perform, to beat others, to get what is deserved to you.

I am all for a system that rewards the work you put in. If I worked bloody hard at school and university to get qualified for higher roles, then I should receive just reward in monetary terms than others who did not try.

Competitive advantage is the key to getting on in life and capitalism and the supply/demand curve does this for us.

No other system (socialism, communism) rewards hard work and individual effort like capitalism does.


Don't make me disclose your true socio-economic situation Andrei. Wink
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #96 - Oct 31st, 2013 at 8:54am
 
Grey wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 11:35pm:
There's no Anarchoanything. Anarchism is concerned with the structures of a society based on co-operation without rulers or coercive practices. Anarchists are not gangsters. If you can't bear to sit and discuss at the table with people of differing opinions Anarchism isn't your bag.

Capitalism is a big game of MONOPOLY tm. Happens that MONOPOLYtm is fun to play on a Sunday arvo and actually Capitalism was a good idea at the time, (close on 400years ago). But as you're all aware, MONOPOLYtm has an end game, even a very big one that's been running 400Years.

If you don't understand Anarchism it's wise to start reading. Anarchism represents the only soft landing available. Without it things are going to get messy and not in a good way.  Grin 


Excellent post Grey!

Anarchism has been deliberately coupled with CHAOS, and a RULE-less society.

And you can see why the RULERS of ALL persuasions are threatened by the true definition of anarchism and what sort of world the anarchists wish to live in.

As you say Anarchism is not a system without RULES, its a system without RULERS. It is based on the purest form of democracy and freedom.

But as we all know, the critical thing that is needed in an Anarchist system, is an informed citizenry that participates in formulating the RULES they wish to live under - and just RULES have a moral foundation.

The free flow of information is critical.

I wonder what is going on in the world today with regards to information being effectively communicated to the public in a truthful manner????
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #97 - Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:08am
 
Capitalism is MORALLY wrong.
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Do we need to be always politically correct.
In the world of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #98 - Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:19am
 
athos wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:08am:
Capitalism is MORALLY wrong.


It also fails economically

If you were to choose the most immoral. corrupt and inefficient system thought up by humans it would be corporate capitalism. Its a form of fascism.

Even Keynes, who pushed capitalism, warmed about the inherent instability in pure free market capitalism, and the social and environmental damage that it does.

Corporate capitalism is morally incompatible with democracy
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Pantheon
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #99 - Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:56am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:19am:
athos wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:08am:
Capitalism is MORALLY wrong.


It also fails economically

If you were to choose the most immoral. corrupt and inefficient system thought up by humans it would be corporate capitalism. Its a form of fascism.

Even Keynes, who pushed capitalism, warmed about the inherent instability in pure free market capitalism, and the social and environmental damage that it does.

Corporate capitalism is morally incompatible with democracy


Oh so capitalism  fails economically? is what why is has lasted over 200 years (compared to the laughable average  40 years of socialist state that does more harm then good) makes nations increasingly wealth and making both the poor man and the rich man far better off then other states.

We are not seeing capitalism failing we are see the corruption of a system, as i said before thanks to socialist policy, for example the central bank system which interferes with the interest rate, usually suppressing it below where the market would have it by allowing banks of deposit to lend new money into existence, which leads to bad investment decision which as we have seen led to the GFC....no central bank system no GFC.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #100 - Oct 31st, 2013 at 10:05am
 
athos wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:08am:
Capitalism is MORALLY wrong.


How is it..
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #101 - Oct 31st, 2013 at 10:19am
 
Quote:
Still two more examples you haven't addressed.

Penalty rates exist because otherwise Employers could demand that their employees work unreasonable hours.  Unions fought for and brought in the 40 hour working week.  Before that employers could and did demand that their employees work 6 or 7 day weeks, 12-18 hour days.

Employers routinely demand "flexibility" from their employees but do not reciprocate nor if they reducing penalty rates or overtime in times of hardship, return those rates in times of plenty.   I have had several jobs where unpaid overtime was expected of me.  I refused to work it.   I am selling  my time to my employer, they cannot expect to get it for free, any more could I expect to purchase their product for free.   Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy


I already answered them..  no one puts a gun to the employees head and makes them work unreasonable hours, everyone has a choose and if the employer demanded to much they will lose an employee and possible new employees. Does unions have a place in capitalism..OF CAUSE.

If the Employers routinely demand "flexibility" from their employees and the employees sees it as unfair they can say 'NO'. Your the perfect example you "had several jobs where unpaid overtime was expected of me.  I refused to work it." If he going to want you to work overtime his going to have to pay you more or your not going to work...simple put.. no need for government intervention.

Your wasting my time watch the video and answer your own question.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #102 - Oct 31st, 2013 at 10:21am
 
Pantheon wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:56am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:19am:
athos wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:08am:
Capitalism is MORALLY wrong.


It also fails economically

If you were to choose the most immoral. corrupt and inefficient system thought up by humans it would be corporate capitalism. Its a form of fascism.

Even Keynes, who pushed capitalism, warmed about the inherent instability in pure free market capitalism, and the social and environmental damage that it does.

Corporate capitalism is morally incompatible with democracy


Oh so capitalism  fails economically? is what why is has lasted over 200 years (compared to the laughable average  40 years of socialist state that does more harm then good) makes nations increasingly wealth and making both the poor man and the rich man far better off then other states.

We are not seeing capitalism failing we are see the corruption of a system, as i said before thanks to socialist policy, for example the central bank system which interferes with the interest rate, usually suppressing it below where the market would have it by allowing banks of deposit to lend new money into existence, which leads to bad investment decision which as we have seen led to the GFC....no central bank system no GFC.


Even Keynes, one of the great proponents of the immoral Capitalist monster, disagrees with your flowery slave accepted worship of an inherently corrupt and immoral system of organisation.

Capitalism doesn't need to be corrupted from the outside, Its in-built, automatic and self destructive

This is not only what YOU worship, but wish to dump upon everyone else on the planet

good luck with that fascist venture!
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #103 - Oct 31st, 2013 at 10:27am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:19am:
athos wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:08am:
Capitalism is MORALLY wrong.


It also fails economically

If you were to choose the most immoral. corrupt and inefficient system thought up by humans it would be corporate capitalism. Its a form of fascism.

Even Keynes, who pushed capitalism, warmed about the inherent instability in pure free market capitalism, and the social and environmental damage that it does.


So did Smith.  He warned of the dangers of a lack of regulation and the natural tendency within Capitalism for cartels to form, which fix prices.  He never advocated totally lassair faire capitalism, despite what its devotees claimed.
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Does Capitalism Exploit Workers?
Reply #104 - Oct 31st, 2013 at 10:33am
 
|dev|null wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 10:27am:
Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:19am:
athos wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 9:08am:
Capitalism is MORALLY wrong.


It also fails economically

If you were to choose the most immoral. corrupt and inefficient system thought up by humans it would be corporate capitalism. Its a form of fascism.

Even Keynes, who pushed capitalism, warmed about the inherent instability in pure free market capitalism, and the social and environmental damage that it does.


So did Smith.  He warned of the dangers of a lack of regulation and the natural tendency within Capitalism for cartels to form, which fix prices.  He never advocated totally lassair faire capitalism, despite what its devotees claimed.


Yes Adam Smith is often cited by the modern corporatist cartel criminals as some sort of mentor - it looks as though they may not have even read what Adam Smith actually believed in.

The USA has had 5 major Corpocracies since 1776 - All are fascist tyrannical systems of enslavement.

The current corpocracy is a real nasty one, that is most pervasive that has formed - it controls pretty much all aspects of society and the economy. (The internet may well be the last refuge for independent thought and resistance, discussion - but they have been aiming their sights on the internet too. You can see what has been happening with regards to the internet over the past decade in particular)
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