Australian Politics Forum - Windmills and birds

Chimp_Logic

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #45 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:45pm

Ajax wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:36pm:

muso wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:34pm:

Ajax wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:12pm:

chimp said that not Jo.

If you care to take a look.

I had a look. This is what the headline was:

Government burn $70 billion a year subsidizing renewables...

Which government? Well she's an Australian confusionalist, so one would think she's spreading disinformation about Australia. It's only if we go further down the text that we find out that it's actually a worldwide figure.

This is what I first posted at the bottom of the previous page........????????

Strange that you see only what you want to see....????

Quote:

“More than US$70 billion of support is provided by governments to renewable energy production and consumption worldwide.”

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/13/energy-iea-gas-idUKL5E8KD4ZJ20120913

Ok a lilttle bit further up on that previous page I posted this,

Quote:

Government burn $70 billion a year subsidizing renewables, and wild claims of “fossil fuel subsidies” debunked

http://joannenova.com.au/2012/09/government-burn-70-billion-a-year-subsidizing-r...

if you follow the link it shows the quote.

Did you calculate what the fossil fuel/renewable energy ratio is for tax payer funded goodies and subsidies is?

If you take your miserly 70 billion and use the IMF estimate of 1.9 trillion you get a very healthy and favourable scam ratio of

27.14

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Windmills and birds Reply #46 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:47pm Didn't chimp quote a global figure of $1.4 trillion at one stage for global subsidies of fossil fuel?
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Ajax

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #47 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:48pm

Well chimp that means when we switch to renewables our government will have more than double the money because it will only subsidise the renewable energy half as much as the fossil fuel energy right....?????

Yeah I'ld like to see that.............!!!!!

did you guys miss this or you're just avoiding it....?????

Quote:

The question is...???

If all fossil fuels provide 88% of the world's energy needs and from that figure coal provides 24% of the worlds energy needs, and all fossil fuels are subsidized to the tune of 1.9 trillion dollars world wide.

If renewables provide 7% of the world's energy needs and are also being subsidized at $70 billion dollars world wide.

1. How much of the fossil fuel subsidy does coal get?

2. If coal and renewables were to swap places in terms of percentage of power supplied to the world.

What would be the new subsidy for renewable energy and the new subsidy for coal energy?

1. 518 billion coal @ 24%

2. renewables 240 billion @ 24%
coal 151 billion @ 7%

What did you estimate...........?????

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Ajax

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #48 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:51pm

muso wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:47pm:

Didn't chimp quote a global figure of $1.4 trillion at one stage for global subsidies of fossil fuel?

I think banana breath has gone apesh!t......!!!!!!

With no sources as usual....???

Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:09pm:

Estimated global subsidies and grants handed to fossil fuel sectors per year

1.9 trillion - IMF
1.42 trillion - World Coal Association
1.3 trillion - EA
1.14 trillion - estimate based on report
950 Billion - EU

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #49 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:53pm

muso wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:47pm:

Didn't chimp quote a global figure of $1.4 trillion at one stage for global subsidies of fossil fuel?

yes indeed muso

I have figures which range from 950 Billion (EU) to 1.9 trillion (IMF)

these figures don't include the cost of energy and OIL wars

(the Iraq war alone was estimated to have costed about 5.1 trillion dollars - mainly profits for the US corporations - cant talk about the REAL cost of the Iraq war - 1.42 million civilian deaths post 2003, and about 5,000 US military personnel deaths + countless injuries)

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muso

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #50 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:57pm

$1900 Billion dollars multiplied by 0.16 = $304 billion. So renewables should get subsidies of $304 billion globally even for parity with fossil fuel generation. In fact they only get $70 billion.

Quote:

About 16% of global final energy consumption comes from renewable resources.

http://www.unep.org/Documents.Multilingual/Default.asp?DocumentID=2647&ArticleID...

That's a 2010 figure, so it's probably higher now.

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Ajax

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #51 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:01pm

muso wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:57pm:

$1900 Billion dollars multiplied by 0.16 = $304 billion. So renewables should get subsidies of $304 billion globally even for parity with fossil fuel generation. In fact they only get $70 billion.

Quote:

About 16% of global final energy consumption comes from renewable resources.

http://www.unep.org/Documents.Multilingual/Default.asp?DocumentID=2647&ArticleID...

That's a 2010 figure, so it's probably higher now.

Thanks.

But it looks to me as though the renewable subsidies are less than the fossil fuels.

A different rate a cheaper rate........?????

You have based renewables on the fossil fuel rate...!!!

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #52 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:02pm

muso wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:57pm:

$1900 Billion dollars multiplied by 0.16 = $304 billion. So renewables should get subsidies of $304 billion globally even for parity with fossil fuel generation. In fact they only get $70 billion.

Quote:

About 16% of global final energy consumption comes from renewable resources.

http://www.unep.org/Documents.Multilingual/Default.asp?DocumentID=2647&ArticleID...

That's a 2010 figure, so it's probably higher now.

I would prefer that NO sector gets subsidies and tax breaks (the fossil fuel and nuclear sector corporate board rooms tremble in fear when they hear this)

So firstly you level the playing field. Then you regulate the banking and financial sectors so that they don't CORRUPTLY favour money lending to specific sectors (which is the case at the moment)

In that scenario, even the inefficient corpocracy and corrupt stock markets cant stop renewables from flourishing globally

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Rider

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #53 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:03pm

muso wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 6:18pm:

Rider wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 5:12pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 3:35pm:

Hey Ajax,

70 billion in subsidies per year for renewable energy in Australia?

Really? As much as the total health budget?

Astonishing how it hasn't taken off...

you must be dreaming again and spreading your garbage again.

You need to return to your mother country Germany and see how they do things there - quite different from the worlds number 1 DUMB country - Australia

Of all the fantastic things done in Germany, wind power aint one. The hangover from the fantasy of WIND power is gonna be epic. If for one moment you opened your eyes you may just see the reality. Mr & Mrs Sauerkraut are not happy with their power bills, I expect another frigid winter will just about cement the simmering discontent they are feeling.

http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/electricprices.gif

Not much more than the price in Australia, and the Germans are not exactly poor.

Wow, lets tax ourselves voluntarily till we make ourselves poor socialists - must be the Chump effect on you Muso, but missing the gratuitous bilious abuse.

Its a great graph that, makes you wanna compare Australia with say Canada, or even the USA....we have the green twats here in Australia and at the UN to thank for our power prices....and now its becoming obvious to most non gravy train recipients that the man made global warming scam is nothing more than a....well, a scam.

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Ajax

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #54 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:05pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:02pm:

muso wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 7:57pm:

$1900 Billion dollars multiplied by 0.16 = $304 billion. So renewables should get subsidies of $304 billion globally even for parity with fossil fuel generation. In fact they only get $70 billion.

Quote:

About 16% of global final energy consumption comes from renewable resources.

http://www.unep.org/Documents.Multilingual/Default.asp?DocumentID=2647&ArticleID...

That's a 2010 figure, so it's probably higher now.

I would prefer that NO sector gets subsidies and tax breaks (the fossil fuel and nuclear sector corporate board rooms tremble in fear when they hear this)

So firstly you level the playing field. Then you regulate the banking and financial sectors so that they don't CORRUPTLY favour money lending to specific sectors (which is the case at the moment)

In that scenario, even the inefficient corpocracy and corrupt stock markets cant stop renewables from flourishing globally

Come on chimp

If they can manipulate our banking system, if they can manipulate our fossil fuels.....!!!!

What's going to stop them manipulating renewable energy..!!

I hear where you're coming from but is it wishful thinking..??

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muso

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #55 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:11pm

Ajax wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:01pm:

Thanks.

But it looks to me as though the renewable subsidies are less than the fossil fuels.

A different rate a cheaper rate........?????

You have based renewables on the fossil fuel rate...!!!

They are less by a factor of 3 or 4. What I did was to take a figure of 16% and multiplied that by the $1900 billion stated subsidies for fossil fuels. What I'm saying is that if the subsidies were in the same proportion, then the subsidy for renewables should be around $304 billion. The figure from Reuters is only $70 billion.

Capiche?

Actually, the 2013 renewable enegy generation is now around 20% globally, so it's even more of a disparity.

Having said that, why would you subsidise hydro electricity? - or geothermal in Iceland, where it's already cheap?

You're right in saying that the costs of wars have not been factored in. The cost of war is an invisible subsidy in itself.

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Ajax

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #56 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:11pm

Rider wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:03pm:

Wow, lets tax ourselves voluntarily till we make ourselves poor socialists - must be the Chump effect on you Muso, but missing the gratuitous bilious abuse.

Its a great graph that, makes you wanna compare Australia with say Canada, or even the USA....we have the green twats here in Australia and at the UN to thank for our power prices....and now its becoming obvious to most non gravy train recipients that the man made global warming scam is nothing more than a....well, a scam.

So true rider, but the club of rome wants global governance with all the nazi pigs that have created this "masters of the universe" club, and they think we need saving from ourselves.

That's why they want to govern the whole world.

The disappointing thing to me anyways is that they have managed to get educated people like chimp and muso on their side supporting the scam that is global warming.

Guys look who's running the show, look at the pseudo science they spit out through computer models that don't agree with real world observations.

Are you guys ready to place a dictatorship in office for carbon pricing......????

We can go to renewables without making these PIGS rich in the process through carbon credit trading...!!!

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« Last Edit: Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:35pm by Ajax »

1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
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muso

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #57 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:17pm

Rider wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:03pm:

Its a great graph that, makes you wanna compare Australia with say Canada, or even the USA....we have the green twats here in Australia and at the UN to thank for our power prices....and now its becoming obvious to most non gravy train recipients that the man made global warming scam is nothing more than a....well, a scam.

You honestly think that Australia's tiny renewable energy sector has affected the electricity price?

Nonsense! Do some research. The price of electricity has always been less in the US and Canada and both those countries are producing a higher proportion of renewable energy than Australia.

Why do you think energy is so cheap in Canada and the US?

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Ajax

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Re: Windmills and birds
Reply #58 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:24pm

Financial slavery in the form of the environmental movement.....????

If corporations are getting billions form the government..!!

Why rise the price of energy............????

Quote:

Julia Gillard's clean energy crusade

The transformation to low-emissions technologies will be driven by a $10bn Clean Energy Finance Corporation, which will invest in businesses driving clean energy proposals.

The new body will be in addition to $3.2bn Australian Renewable Energy Agency, which will drive existing low-emissions technology programs and comes despite the Productivity Commission finding that renewables had driven up abatement costs for little environmental gain - See more at:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/national-affairs/julia-gillards-clean-en...

Quote:

Gillard’s carbon price proposal: shovel billions to business
Julia Gillard’s embrace of pro-business policies seems to know no bounds. It was revealed in early February Labor wants to introduce a carbon price laden with compensation for coal and electricity companies.

Leaked documents in The Australian show that Labor wants to introduce a carbon tax in July next year that will become an emissions trading scheme a few years down the track.

Compensation handed to big business would be similar to that offered by former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd under his abandoned emissions trading scheme (known as the Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, or CPRS)—approximately $35 billion dollars in cash and free permits to polluting companies in the first year alone.

The compensation arrangements under the CPRS attracted swathes of criticism; even the Grattan Institute, stacked with advisors handpicked by Labor, said in a report that the compensation arrangements were unnecessary and would slow the transition to renewable energy.

That even despite this Labor still wants to dish out such a stunning amount of money to polluting companies is testament to their slavishness to the oil, coal and gas giants that are responsible for the vast majority of Australia’s carbon emissions.

Under the CPRS, mining company Rio Tinto was to receive $565 million dollars in the first year alone, and would presumably receive a similar amount under Gillard’s scheme. Rio Tinto has just announced a record profit of $14 billion dollars.

Just-released Treasury documents show Gillard forfeited $60 billion dollars when she reworked the mining tax to suit business demands. BHP is boasting that as a result it achieved a half-year profit of $10.6 billion.

The Sydney Morning Herald reported that big business is so emboldened by their victory over the mining tax that “business leaders have warned that the government could face a battle reminiscent of the one over a mining tax if Labor ignores demands for compensation for companies hurt by a carbon price.”

This is a disastrous direction for the climate. A new report by the Department of Climate Change says Australia is not on target to reach the miniscule five per cent emissions reduction target set by Kevin Rudd. They estimate emissions will rise by 24 per cent by 2020

http://www.solidarity.net.au/32/gillards-carbon-price-proposal-shovel-billions-t...

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« Last Edit: Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:33pm by Ajax »

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Windmills and birds Reply #59 - Oct 31^st, 2013 at 8:27pm That article conveniently just shows one side of the ledger. Now again - Why is electricity so cheap to the consumer in the US? It's not brain surgery.
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