Australian Politics Forum - Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs

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Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Reply #105 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:37pm

lee wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

I have been knocked back twice from postings url's. Apparently I have to have 100 posts before I may do so. Huh

Argue with the mods.

No, you have to have 100 posts before you can post a clickable link. A url can be no more than text. Just don't try formatting it as a url. That is, paste the text of the address, but don't use the far-left-hand button on the toolbar.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18027 Gender:	Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs Reply #106 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:46pm Chimp_Logic asked about the ice volume above.
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muso

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Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Reply #107 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:48pm

# wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

# wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:

Arctic summer temperatures at warmest level for 120,000 years

By Andrew Freedman on 1 November 2013

Elsewhere in the news, NASA says:

In late September 2013, the ice surrounding Antarctica reached its annual winter maximum and set a new record. Sea ice extended over 19.47 million square kilometers (7.51 million square miles) of the Southern Ocean. The previous record of 19.44 million square kilometers was set in September 2012....

Do you know what that means? I've been around long enough to realise the hazards of data in the hands of amateurs.

One of the things it means is that the Ice shelf is moving faster into the sea. The satellite data shows that Antarctica is gaining sea ice but losing land ice at an accelerating rate due to increased ice-shelf melt. This has significant implications for sea level rise. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that any sea ice in September will melt over the Summer months.

Bintanga et al. 2013).

Lee if you have a url link you'd like to post, just give me the Google key words and the title and (one of us) will add it to your post.

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« Last Edit: Nov 13^th, 2013 at 9:00pm by muso »

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18027 Gender:	Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs Reply #108 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:51pm That would be a possible explanation. There would I think be others.
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lee

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Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Reply #109 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 9:09pm

Thank you for your offer.

If the sea ice extent is larger and IF the volume is larger then it would seem to be more than moving land ice .

The Wegener story is on Wattsupwiththat quoting a Google translation on 24 October. "A new record: the most sea ice in Antarctica in the last 30 years by extent and by volume "

A new record: the most sea ice in Antarctica in the last 30 years by extent and by volume

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muso

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Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Reply #110 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 9:16pm

The other factor at play in increased precipitation. The paper I linked to shows decreasing Ice Sheet volume over time. That is not incompatible with an increase in total volume (Sea ice plus ice shelf) at the end of winter (September 2013). It's a spot value as opposed to a trend.

It would be interesting to compare trends of minimum ice volume at the end of summer over time.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs Reply #111 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 9:19pm lee wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:51pm: That would be a possible explanation. There would I think be others. If the satellite data shows decreasing shelf ice over time, what other explanation would you propose?
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18027 Gender:	Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs Reply #112 - Nov 13^th, 2013 at 9:58pm It seems the East Antarctic Ice Sheet is growing and the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is reducing. Then again the study by Zwally et al "Mass Gains of the Antarctic Ice Sheet Exceed Losses'. the overall picture seems to be one of gain.
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Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Reply #113 - Nov 14^th, 2013 at 7:32pm

lee wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 9:09pm:

...
The Wegener story is on Wattsupwiththat ...

There's your problem.

Quote:

Anthony Watts

Credentials

Anthony Watts studied Electrical Engineering and Meteorology at Purdue University, but has been unwilling to state whether he graduated.

He is a former television meteorologist.

Background

Anthony Watts is best known as the founder and editor of the popular Watts Up With That (WUWT), a blog that primarily publishes articles skeptical of climate change. He is also the owner of the weather graphics company ItWorks. He is the founder of Surfacestations.org, a project with the stated purpose of documenting the siting quality of weather stations in the United States. According to documents released in 2012, Watts has received funding from the Heartland Institute.

Watts previously worked as an on-air meteorologist for WLFI-TV in Lafayette, Indiana, and later joined KHSK-TV in 1987. In 2002, Watts left his position as a television weatherman to devote time to his private business, ITWorks. He returned to work part-time at KHSL in 2004, and has also been the chief meteorologist for KPAY-AM (an affiliate of Fox News) since 2002.

Watts admits "I'm not a degreed climate scientist" on his WUWT profile, and his primary credential appears to be an American Meteorological Society Seal of Approval. This does not mean that Watts is "AMS Certified" as some sources have inaccurately claimed. The AMS Seal of Approval is a discontinued credential that does not require a bachelor's or higher degree in atmospheric science or meteorology.

Watts's "About" page mentions neither his Purdue attendance nor whether he graduated. Watts has refused to say whether he graduated, and a number of direct queries to Watts to find out if he graduated from college were rebuffed.

Do you think you can trust Watts' reporting?

What attracted you to that source?

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lee

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Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Reply #114 - Nov 14^th, 2013 at 7:53pm

I guess you can always go to the source. I merely point a way- whether you go that way isn't my problem.

I am a great believer in scientific scepticism. Scientists after all are merely people with foibles and prejudices just like us. They are not infallible.

So it's OK for warmists to be sceptical of the other side- but it should be a bilateral argument.

So if climate sceptics are sceptical and are deniers; I guess that makes sceptical warmists - What?

What you should be doing is attacking the science behind it. The warmist have Michael Mann of Hockey Stick fame. Trenberth of the missing heat fame. There are multiple others. Mann apparently has a self awarded Nobel Prize.

You do note Watts gets "qualified scientists" commenting on his blog site. John Cook of SKS is more umm, choosy, shall we say.

edit: you can always do a Google search for an English version of the press release.

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« Last Edit: Nov 14^th, 2013 at 8:08pm by lee »

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Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Reply #115 - Nov 14^th, 2013 at 8:21pm

lee wrote on Nov 14^th, 2013 at 7:53pm:

... Scientists after all are merely people with foibles and prejudices just like us. They are not infallible.
...

Individually, yes. Collectively?

No individual or group is infallible, but do you consider a group more or less fallible than an individual? Is a larger group more likely to be wrong? Less likely?

lee wrote on Nov 14^th, 2013 at 7:53pm:

...
What you should be doing is attacking the science behind it. ...

Given that I'm not qualified, do you think that would be healthy? Who would I fool but myself?

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Soren

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Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Reply #116 - Nov 14^th, 2013 at 8:49pm

muso wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:48pm:

# wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

# wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:

Arctic summer temperatures at warmest level for 120,000 years

By Andrew Freedman on 1 November 2013

Elsewhere in the news, NASA says:

In late September 2013, the ice surrounding Antarctica reached its annual winter maximum and set a new record. Sea ice extended over 19.47 million square kilometers (7.51 million square miles) of the Southern Ocean. The previous record of 19.44 million square kilometers was set in September 2012....

Do you know what that means? I've been around long enough to realise the hazards of data in the hands of amateurs.

One of the things it means is that the Ice shelf is moving faster into the sea. The satellite data shows that Antarctica is gaining sea ice but losing land ice at an accelerating rate due to increased ice-shelf melt. This has significant implications for sea level rise. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that any sea ice in September will melt over the Summer months.

Bintanga et al. 2013).

Lee if you have a url link you'd like to post, just give me the Google key words and the title and (one of us) will add it to your post.

So more ice means global warming. It's the wrong ice. The type that melts in summer.

Coz frozen sea and frozen not-sea makes al;l the difference, and never mind the temperature. The ice shelf is melting because the sea ice is increasing. It gets cold in winter, then it gets warm in summer.

Got it. Terrible, isn't is??

All predictions of rising sea levels have come through over the last 20-30 years and this is no different.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs
Reply #117 - Nov 14^th, 2013 at 9:04pm

Soren wrote on Nov 14^th, 2013 at 8:49pm:

muso wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:48pm:

# wrote on Nov 13^th, 2013 at 8:34pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

# wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:

Arctic summer temperatures at warmest level for 120,000 years

By Andrew Freedman on 1 November 2013

Elsewhere in the news, NASA says:

In late September 2013, the ice surrounding Antarctica reached its annual winter maximum and set a new record. Sea ice extended over 19.47 million square kilometers (7.51 million square miles) of the Southern Ocean. The previous record of 19.44 million square kilometers was set in September 2012....

Do you know what that means? I've been around long enough to realise the hazards of data in the hands of amateurs.

One of the things it means is that the Ice shelf is moving faster into the sea. The satellite data shows that Antarctica is gaining sea ice but losing land ice at an accelerating rate due to increased ice-shelf melt. This has significant implications for sea level rise. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that any sea ice in September will melt over the Summer months.

Bintanga et al. 2013).

Lee if you have a url link you'd like to post, just give me the Google key words and the title and (one of us) will add it to your post.

So more ice means global warming. It's the wrong ice. The type that melts in summer.

Coz frozen sea and frozen not-sea makes al;l the difference, and never mind the temperature. The ice shelf is melting because the sea ice is increasing. It gets cold in winter, then it gets warm in summer.

Got it. Terrible, isn't is??

All predictions of rising sea levels have come through over the last 20-30 years and this is no different.

What is the change in the ice volume/mass?

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs Reply #118 - Nov 14^th, 2013 at 9:10pm Where's DeathridesaHorse? At least he made some sense.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Arctic summer temperatures warmest for 120,000 yrs Reply #119 - Nov 14^th, 2013 at 9:13pm muso wrote on Nov 14^th, 2013 at 9:10pm: Where's DeathridesaHorse? At least he made some sense. i
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