Australian Politics Forum - If all the ice melted

Chimp_Logic Gold Member Offline πολιτικός Posts: 4826 Mawson Base Gender:	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #45 - Nov 16^th, 2013 at 10:37pm UnSubRocky wrote on Nov 16^th, 2013 at 9:59pm: More water vapor, more water to fall on the continent of Antarctica and freezes. Lower sea levels. More water vapor, travelling further. Makes inland lakes. Lower sea levels. In terms of rainfall Antarctica is the driest continent in the world. Basically a desert
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UnSubRocky

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #46 - Nov 16^th, 2013 at 11:00pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 16^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Nov 16^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

More water vapor, more water to fall on the continent of Antarctica and freezes. Lower sea levels. More water vapor, travelling further. Makes inland lakes. Lower sea levels.

In terms of rainfall Antarctica is the driest continent in the world. Basically a desert

Yeah, but if the place got more rain, it would freeze more on the continent. Nevermind what the forum topic says. There's always going to be a counter to the claim that the ice melts.

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At this stage...

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #47 - Nov 16^th, 2013 at 11:06pm

UnSubRocky wrote on Nov 16^th, 2013 at 11:00pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 16^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Nov 16^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

More water vapor, more water to fall on the continent of Antarctica and freezes. Lower sea levels. More water vapor, travelling further. Makes inland lakes. Lower sea levels.

In terms of rainfall Antarctica is the driest continent in the world. Basically a desert

Yeah, but if the place got more rain, it would freeze more on the continent. Nevermind what the forum topic says. There's always going to be a counter to the claim that the ice melts.

and what is that claim?

what are you trying to say in this forum?

What is the gist of your argument?

What exactly is your position on this very important issue?

Who are you, you filthy rotten walrus anal rim drip

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #48 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 10:07am

UnSubRocky wrote on Nov 16^th, 2013 at 11:00pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 16^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Nov 16^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

More water vapor, more water to fall on the continent of Antarctica and freezes. Lower sea levels. More water vapor, travelling further. Makes inland lakes. Lower sea levels.

In terms of rainfall Antarctica is the driest continent in the world. Basically a desert

Yeah, but if the place got more rain, it would freeze more on the continent. Nevermind what the forum topic says. There's always going to be a counter to the claim that the ice melts.

WorldSacred, there's so much ignorance in your post that I hardly know where to start.

Let's just say that Antarctica is really, really cold. So cold that much of the ice goes straight from solid to vapour. This is called sublimation.

Most of the water that enters the atmosphere tends to fall as rain closer to the equator. By the time the air circulates to the poles it's very dry, so there's little precipitation there.

While there will always be counter claims, the consensus among the best qualified scientists seems to be that the planet as a whole is losing ice. I can't claim to know better than the best qualified; can you?

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Chimp_Logic Gold Member Offline πολιτικός Posts: 4826 Mawson Base Gender:	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #49 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 10:45am muso, the pressure is also important in determining whether sublimation can take place
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# Gold Member Offline A fool is certain: an ignorant fool, absolutely so Posts: 2603	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #50 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 10:52am Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 10:45am: muso, the pressure is also important in determining whether sublimation can take place True; lower pressures increase sublimation but, at the temperatures of Antarctica, it does happen at standard (atmospheric) pressure.
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #51 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 11:08am

# wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 10:45am:

muso, the pressure is also important in determining whether sublimation can take place

True; lower pressures increase sublimation but, at the temperatures of Antarctica, it does happen at standard (atmospheric) pressure.

I don't think so

Follow the 1 Atmosphere line on this graph. You will see that for ice to reach a gaseous state, it must pass through a liquid state first.

You will notice that for ice to change to a gas, without going through a liquid state, the pressure needs to be a lot lower. This is how vacuum freeze drying occurs.

So if you can get to low pressures (below 0.006 ATM) then ice can undergo sublimation. (see how the TRIPLE point is determined on the graph)

Do you know of any pressure conditions in the Antarctic that have these sorts of vacuum type pressures?

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sublimation1.jpg (18 KB | 36 )

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #52 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:21pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 11:08am:

# wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 10:45am:

muso, the pressure is also important in determining whether sublimation can take place

True; lower pressures increase sublimation but, at the temperatures of Antarctica, it does happen at standard (atmospheric) pressure.

I don't think so

Follow the 1 Atmosphere line on this graph. ...

Take a deep breath, draw back for perspective and think it through.

If you put something in the freezer unwrapped, does it dry out? What happens to the moisture?

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muso

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #53 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:39pm

# wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:21pm:

If you put something in the freezer unwrapped, does it dry out? What happens to the moisture?

Chimp is thinking too literally, but I can see where you are both coming from. Even at a temperature of Minus 30, ice has a vapour pressure of about 40 Pa. That's very low, but with high winds, you get some solid to gas vaporisation. At -20C, the vapour pressure increases to 100Pa.

OK, theoretically at -30degrees, there is a monomolecular layer of liquid water. I won't go into that.

Google dry valleys in Antarctica.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #54 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:51pm

muso wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:39pm:

# wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:21pm:

If you put something in the freezer unwrapped, does it dry out? What happens to the moisture?

Chimp is thinking too literally, but I can see where you are both coming from. Even at a temperature of Minus 30, ice has a vapour pressure of about 40 Pa. That's very low, but with high winds, you get some solid to gas vaporisation. At -20C, the vapour pressure increases to 100Pa.

OK, theoretically at -30degrees, there is a monomolecular layer of liquid water. I won't go into that.

Google dry valleys in Antarctica.

not unless the pressure is below the triple point for water (ie pressure is below 0.006 atm, and about 0 deg C). Its not a matter of thinking literally. Its a matter of # not understanding the basics of a pressure-temperature phase diagram for water

For sublimation to occur, the conditions must be below the triple point.

This graph has been well established in science for some time now.

for CO2 the triple point is obviously different

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Chimp_Logic Gold Member Offline πολιτικός Posts: 4826 Mawson Base Gender:	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #55 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:53pm ...maybe I should run some FREE classes on P-T phase diagrams. I wonder if # and muso are interested?
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# Gold Member Offline A fool is certain: an ignorant fool, absolutely so Posts: 2603	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #56 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:58pm Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:53pm: ...maybe I should run some FREE classes on P-T phase diagrams. ... No, chimp. You're too hung up on graphs and theory. Can you honestly say you've never seen freezer burn? By the way, the temperature in most freezers is set at around -18C.
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #57 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:05pm

# wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:58pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:53pm:

...maybe I should run some FREE classes on P-T phase diagrams.
...

No, chimp. You're too hung up on graphs and theory.

Can you honestly say you've never seen freezer burn? By the way, the temperature in most freezers is set at around -18C.

lol

are you still claiming that ice can undergo sublimation at atmospheric pressures?

Did you notice the Triple Point for CO2 in the above P-T phase diagram? The triple point pressure value was GREATER than atmospheric pressure. Kind of explains how dry ice behaves doesn't it #. Dry Ice (solid CO2) CAN undergo sublimation at atmospheric temperature (in fact up to 5.11 ATM) at certain temperatures.

Water on the other hand has a Triple Point of (0.01 C, 0.00603 ATM) which is way below atmospheric conditions.

Look up how they freeze dry products - check out what vacuum pressures are needed and whether they can achieve freeze drying at atmospheric pressures.

cheers

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #58 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:10pm

# and muso exposed, embarrassed but deflecting in order to mitigate bruising to their fragile egos and pride.

You should both just admit you made an incorrect statement in public and move on, rather than trying to change the characteristics of the phases of water as depicted in high school science text books.

I don't really have time for people who are too proud to admit an error. We all make them. Nothing to be ashamed about

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# Gold Member Offline A fool is certain: an ignorant fool, absolutely so Posts: 2603	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #59 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:27pm Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:10pm: ... I don't really have time for people who are too proud to admit an error. We all make them. Nothing to be ashamed about Have freezer; seen freezer burn.
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