Australian Politics Forum - If all the ice melted

Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106962 Melbourne Gender:	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #60 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:38pm This thread is getting silly - all the land locked ice will never melt - not in 100 of our lifetimes.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18014 Gender:	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #61 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:41pm And yet according to a study Ice in Antactica is increasing by extent and volume. Of course that's only going on a Google English translation of a German study, with the link to the study if you wish to read it in the original German or do your own translation.
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muso

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #62 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:59pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:53pm:

...maybe I should run some FREE classes on P-T phase diagrams.

I wonder if # and muso are interested?

Chimpy,

I do know about Phase diagrams. I cut my teeth on them back in my oil and gas days.

I also know that you get "sublimation" via monomolecular liquid layers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11538066

Quote:

Climatological observations and predicted sublimation rates at Lake Hoare, Antarctica.

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muso

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #63 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 2:16pm

Bobby. wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:38pm:

This thread is getting silly -

all the land locked ice will never melt -
not in 100 of our lifetimes.

True, but that's not what the dispute is about. Ice has a non zero vapour pressure, even at minus 30 degrees.

Phase diagrams represent equilibrium conditions.

Chimp and # are actually both correct in their ways.

Chimp - Here is a table showing vapour pressures of ice at different temperatures. What do you think that implies?

http://www2.bren.ucsb.edu/~dturney/WebResources_13/WaterSteamIceProperties/Vapor...

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Bobby.

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #64 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 2:19pm

muso wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 2:16pm:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:38pm:

This thread is getting silly -

all the land locked ice will never melt -
not in 100 of our lifetimes.

True, but that's not what the dispute is about. Ice has a non zero vapour pressure, even at minus 30 degrees.

Phase diagrams represent equilibrium conditions.

Chimp and # are actually both correct in their ways.

Chimp - Here is a table showing vapour pressures of ice at different temperatures. What do you think that implies?

http://www2.bren.ucsb.edu/~dturney/WebResources_13/WaterSteamIceProperties/Vapor...

It implies that even frozen ice gives off a vapour of water.

Nowhere here do I see any proof that all the ice could ever melt.

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muso

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #65 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 2:29pm

Bobby. wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 2:19pm:

muso wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 2:16pm:

Bobby. wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:38pm:

This thread is getting silly -

all the land locked ice will never melt -
not in 100 of our lifetimes.

True, but that's not what the dispute is about. Ice has a non zero vapour pressure, even at minus 30 degrees.

Phase diagrams represent equilibrium conditions.

Chimp and # are actually both correct in their ways.

Chimp - Here is a table showing vapour pressures of ice at different temperatures. What do you think that implies?

http://www2.bren.ucsb.edu/~dturney/WebResources_13/WaterSteamIceProperties/Vapor...

It implies that even frozen ice gives off a vapour of water.

Nowhere here do I see any proof that all the ice could ever melt.

The ice that melts on a seasonal basis is sea ice. There is no substantial melting of the East Antarctic Ice Sheet, and it's unlikely to be any different for at least the next 300-1000 years

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#

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #66 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 3:25pm

Bobby. wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:38pm:

...
all the land locked ice will never melt -
...

Never say never.
Bobby. wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 2:19pm:

...
Nowhere here do I see any proof that all the ice could ever melt.

Define "proof".

From the perspective that, in principle, all things are possible; it really depends on how badly we screw up. Quote:

We don’t know where global warming will stop but the worst case scenario is that the earth will become like its sister planet Venus, with a temperature of 250 degrees C ...

Do you reckon that might melt the ice?

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# Gold Member Offline A fool is certain: an ignorant fool, absolutely so Posts: 2603	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #67 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 3:27pm lee wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:41pm: And yet according to a study ... A report, from an unreliable source, on a study.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18014 Gender:	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #68 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 3:32pm Are so Wegener are sceptics too. I didn't know that.
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #69 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 3:32pm

# wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:27pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:10pm:

...
I don't really have time for people who are too proud to admit an error. We all make them. Nothing to be ashamed about

Have freezer; seen freezer burn.

you are the one who has claimed that frozen water can undergo sublimation at atmospheric pressure conditions (lol - false statement I'm afraid)

Study this high school level Pressure-temperature phase diagram for water below.

At atmospheric pressure frozen water must go through a liquid state before turning into a gas.

You need to be under the Triple Point (0.01 C, 0.00603 ATM) for sublimation of frozen water to occur. That's the criteria used for freeze drying food.

Check it out, learn something, rather than deflecting and protecting your fragile ego.

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sublimation1_001.jpg (18 KB | 34 )

Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #70 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 5:13pm Check the other thread. It has nothing to do with egos.
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Chimp_Logic

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #71 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 6:07pm

muso wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 1:59pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 12:53pm:

...maybe I should run some FREE classes on P-T phase diagrams.

I wonder if # and muso are interested?

Chimpy,

I do know about Phase diagrams. I cut my teeth on them back in my oil and gas days.

I also know that you get "sublimation" via monomolecular liquid layers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11538066

Quote:

Climatological observations and predicted sublimation rates at Lake Hoare, Antarctica.

and how is a MONO-MOLECULAR layer of water molecules classed as a liquid?

In any case, how does one discuss sublimation without referring to a pressure-temperature phase diagram?

These are bulk processes. To isolate monolayers of water on a surface and talk about the state of that layer and how it moves to a gaseous state needs more explanation don't you think?

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« Last Edit: Nov 17^th, 2013 at 6:13pm by Chimp_Logic »

Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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#

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #72 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 6:31pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 6:07pm:

... how does one discuss sublimation without referring to a pressure-temperature phase diagram?
...

Experience?

You're saying that, in theory, ice cannot sublime at standard pressure. I'm pointing out that, in practice, it does.

Try this experiment:
- put a naked ice cube in a freezer (a freezer with a fan to circulate the cold will work best);
- come back in a month or two and you will find that the cube is measurably smaller.

What do you think happened to the ice that's gone missing?

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: If all the ice melted
Reply #73 - Nov 17^th, 2013 at 8:35pm

# wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 6:31pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 17^th, 2013 at 6:07pm:

... how does one discuss sublimation without referring to a pressure-temperature phase diagram?
...

Experience?

You're saying that, in theory, ice cannot sublime at standard pressure. I'm pointing out that, in practice, it does.

Try this experiment:
- put a naked ice cube in a freezer (a freezer with a fan to circulate the cold will work best);
- come back in a month or two and you will find that the cube is measurably smaller.

What do you think happened to the ice that's gone missing?

is this a closed system?

why do you need circulating air?

what temperature is the air?

What humidity is in the freezer?

Do you open the door during the few months you conduct this meticulous experiment?

Are the seals on the freezer perfect?

where do you think your little ice cube is located on this phase diagram?

Who are you?

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sublimation1_002.jpg (18 KB | 33 )

Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18014 Gender:	Re: If all the ice melted Reply #74 - Nov 18^th, 2013 at 1:28pm I looked again at WUWT today. An article about a new volcano found under the ice in the West Antarctic. Of course WUWT being unreliable as a repeater of items, I went to Nature website, as the SOURCE, to get the real deal. I wonder if that may be a source of West Antarctic ice melt?
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