Australian Politics Forum - timeless vs transient morality

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48833
At my desk.

timeless vs transient morality
Nov 14^th, 2013 at 9:47pm

This issue came up in the executing prisoners of war and anti-muhammedan Muslims thread.

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 12^th, 2013 at 11:54am:

As for Brian's claims about Muhammad's "standards", I would firstly point out that Brian is not muslim, so I don't think we could ever agree on the morality of the prophet. As a muslim, I believe that Muhammad's morality was/is universal, whereas Brian believes his morality can only apply to the time and place in which he lived. That is the general premise to this issue...

BUT

I think it is a little more complicated than this. I believe the prophet's morality can only be viewed in two layers. There is absolutely a universality to his morality, but it is abstract: do not abuse women, ensure that marriage is about mutual love and respect, tolerate opposing views etc. However this universal morality can only exist within specific contexts - contexts which are vastly different depending on the time and place. This is what I tried to touch on with my arguments about the morality of marrying a post-pubescent 9 year old. Look at it this way: the "universal" morality on this issue is that women must be "mature" before consummation of marriage. However what constitutes "mature" is completely meaningless outside the specific contexts of the societal norms of a specific time and place. Thats why you can have the apparent contradiction of marrying a 9 year old being both moral and immoral depending on when and where it happens - and *STILL* be able to call it a universal morality. Since in *BOTH* cases, the same universal morality applies - namely that the girl has to be psychologically and physically mature and of course willing enough according to the societal norms of the time.

This seems like a big improvement on what all the other Muslims here have said, but it raises a lot of questions.

Gandalf, can you please give a broad outline of how you divide Islamic rules and principles into the abstract ones that vary with the circumstances, and the ones that are eternal, fixed rules?

How does this fit in with the concept of Shariah law?

Does it mean that Islam permits very "backwards" practices in poorer Muslim countries today but would have a different set of rules in richer countries? How do you decide what is permitted?

Are there many historical cases of countries under Shariah law improving on Muhammed's standards? How would that fit in with the Islamic principle of not forbidding what God has permitted? I believe that principle came into the permissibility of sex with slaves and also wife beating.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 15^th, 2013 at 12:32pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: timelss vs transient morality Reply #1 - Nov 14^th, 2013 at 11:43pm Pretty much all your questions indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of what I said. I believe my thesis is rather self-explanatory, so I suggest you go over it again.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: timeless vs transient morality Reply #2 - Nov 29^th, 2013 at 6:24pm If I understood where you were coming from, I wouldn't need to ask these questions. It took about a week of prodding to get that out of you and you offered up every possible excuse for not giving a straight answer. Surprise surprise, you are deflecting again.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: timeless vs transient morality Reply #3 - Nov 29^th, 2013 at 6:52pm Lets be honest with ourselves FD - the only "prodding" you were doing was to get me to say something incriminating about islam.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21582
A cat with a view

Re: timeless vs transient morality
Reply #4 - Nov 29^th, 2013 at 7:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29^th, 2013 at 6:52pm:

Lets be honest with ourselves FD - the only "prodding" you were doing was to get me to say something incriminating about islam.

Why not the word candid, instead of the word 'incriminating' ?

That word sprang immediately to my mind, on reading your words!

It would please me no end, to hear moslems speak candidly about ISLAM's/moslems intentions and true motives in the world.

But i am not holding my breath!

After all, there is a war going on.

Dictionary;
candid = =
1 truthful and straightforward; frank.
2 (of a photograph or film) taken informally, especially without the subject’s knowledge.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48833
At my desk.

Re: timeless vs transient morality
Reply #5 - Nov 29^th, 2013 at 7:35pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 29^th, 2013 at 6:52pm:

Lets be honest with ourselves FD - the only "prodding" you were doing was to get me to say something incriminating about islam.

No Gandalf, I spent about a week trying to get you to offer an opinion on what Brian posted. I actually expected you to disagree with it.

You did everything but pretend you could not speak English.

And you are doing it again.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: timeless vs transient morality
Reply #6 - Nov 29^th, 2013 at 10:35pm

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2013 at 7:35pm:

And you are doing it again.

FD I can't answer questions that bear absolutely no resemblance to what I wrote. For example..

freediver wrote on Nov 14^th, 2013 at 9:47pm:

Gandalf, can you please give a broad outline of how you divide Islamic rules and principles into the abstract ones that vary with the circumstances, and the ones that are eternal, fixed rules?

What I said had nothing to do with "dividing" anything - quite the opposite in fact. I said very clearly that the universal/abstract morality cannot exist outside contexts of time and place. Thus his morality is the one universal morality that cannot be separated or "divided". If you understood that you would not have asked this nonsensical question.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48833
At my desk.

Re: timeless vs transient morality
Reply #7 - Nov 29^th, 2013 at 10:43pm

You divided Muhammed's morality into a timeless principle and a specific example that cannot be generalised.

Here is a demonstration of what you did:

General rule: be nice to people.

Specific rule: Muhammed was actually a bit of an asshole, but slightly less of an asshole that some of the other assholes that were getting around at the time. Thus we must ignore the specific cases where he was an asshole (and save them for when we can get away with it) and focus for now only on the generality of being good, or slightly better than everyone else, depending on the context.

It is still a division. What I am asking is, how do you do it? If you want to think of an alternative term to division, go ahead. I don't want your pedantry to get in the way of giving an answer. I saw what you did with "anti-Muhammedan". Let's not spend a dozen pages arguing over the appropriateness of the term division for your moral gymnastics.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: timeless vs transient morality
Reply #8 - Nov 29^th, 2013 at 11:48pm

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2013 at 10:43pm:

Specific rule: Muhammed was actually a bit of an asshole, but slightly less of an asshole that some of the other assholes that were getting around at the time.

Thats where you fail. You say he was an asshole because you transplant him from 7th century arabia straight into liberal 21st century western culture - without even realising that if you actually did that, he would rise to the standards of 21st century western culture. Just like if we transplanted a morally upstanding person from our contemporary culture into 7th century arabia, they would seem to you like an asshole - but would actually be a morally upright person of his time and place. Thats your universality - the prophet will be an upstanding moral example in whichever culture you place him in - and thats because his universal morality cannot be separated or "divided" from the context of time and place.

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2013 at 10:43pm:

It is still a division. What I am asking is, how do you do it? If you want to think of an alternative term to division, go ahead.

OK, my alternative is that it is nothing like a division. There is only one morality in islam - it is universal and unchanging. Do you get that part? Right, the next point is that these universal, unchanging moralities can only exist within the context of time and place. OK??

No divisions. They are *NOT* two types of morality - one separate one that changes with context, and another separate one that is universal and unchanging. It is *ALL* universal and unchanging, but can only exist in context of time and place. I also gave the example of the morality around consummating marriage, which should have cleared this up.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48833
At my desk.

Re: timeless vs transient morality
Reply #9 - Nov 30^th, 2013 at 10:09am

So how do you derive the universal morality? Do you have any kind of system? It looks to me like you are simply picking and choosing a few vague principles to take from Muhammed, and then picking and choosing how to apply them in any context, making Islam harsh, unforgiving and exploitive when your audience wants it, and a bunch of tree hugging hippy crap when your audience wants that.

I am also particularly interested in how this fits in with Shariah law. It seems to me to be an outright rejection of it.

How do you prevent Islam from becoming an excuse to adopt whatever morality exists at the time, not matter how abhorrent?

How do you prevent Islam from becoming a barrier to improving "specific morality"?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: timeless vs transient morality Reply #10 - Nov 30^th, 2013 at 2:06pm Islamic universal morality comes from the Quran.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: timeless vs transient morality Reply #11 - Nov 30^th, 2013 at 2:25pm Gee thanks Gandalf, now it all makes sense.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: timeless vs transient morality Reply #12 - Nov 30^th, 2013 at 3:43pm where else did you think islamic rules, laws, morality - for that matter everything islam - comes from? Santa Clause?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48833
At my desk.

Re: timeless vs transient morality
Reply #13 - Nov 30^th, 2013 at 3:52pm

That where Islamic law comes from. Fixed, unchangeable rules - not flexible principles to be interpreted based on the 'context' and how well everyone else is behaving.

How does your interpretation fit in with Shariah law? Is it a rejection of it?

How do you prevent Islam from becoming an excuse to adopt whatever morality exists at the time, not matter how abhorrent?

How do you prevent Islam from becoming a barrier to improving "specific morality"?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: timeless vs transient morality Reply #14 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:11am FD everything islamic - laws, principles and morality - have to be flexible and interpreted based on the context of time and place.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged