Australian Politics Forum - Evidence gone missing

gizmo_2655

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #105 - Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:30am

Xaseui wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:16am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:11am:

Xaseui wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 10:05am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 3:12am:

Xaseui wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 3:00am:

gandalf the Muslim

Quote:

The hadith describes her reaching puberty while she was still living with her parents - ie before consummation.

None of the excuses you wrote matter and you failed to provide any valid responses to Baron's points. And here's the doll playing hadith again:
Quote:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151

Also, she was 9 years old so your lame attempts to say that she had reached pubery are laughable.
Also funny is your belief that Mr. Muhammad was a "prophet of God" and quoting you, I think its a "huge and quite ridiculous assumption" that such a pedophilic violent terrorist was a prophet of God.

Stop defending your Big-Titty promising Pedophile prophet.
(Note the reference to "Big titty promise". This is Quran 78:33 which says Muslims will get large breasted women in Islamic heaven.)
Inspite of me quoting this verse multiple times, the Muslims are too ashamed of their own perverted "holy" book to discuss this verse. Its the big (non-voluptuous) elephant in the room.

Actually, they aren't 'women' in the sense you mean. The houris are a type of angelic being, and are of both sexes, but aren't human.

Here's another Muslim making excuses for his Big-Titty-promising pedophile terrorist fake prophet.

They are FEMALES (Quran 37:48) and they have LARGE breasts (78:33) and they are VIRGINS (Quran 56:36).

So whats your point? Whats the difference between describing a female virgin "angel" with large breasts, and a human female virgin with large breasts?

I'll give you one large-titty virgin if you can tell me a valid difference between those two concepts.

Give references instead of useless personal opinions.

Well I'm NOT a muslim, and I only made the comment to correct a misconception on your part.

Houris ( the 'big titty virgins' you refer to) come in both sexes, male and female, and are created residents or 'staff' of paradise.

As for giving references:

"In Islam, the ḥūr or ḥūrīyah (Arabic: حورية‎) are commonly translated as "(splendid)[1] companions of equal age (well-matched)", "lovely eyed", of "modest gaze", "pure beings" or "companions pure" of paradise, denoting humans and jinn who enter Jannah (paradise) after being recreated anew in the hereafter. Islam also has a strong mystical tradition which places these heavenly delights in the context of the ecstatic awareness of God."

"Some descriptions are more superficial rather than scholarly. For example, "non-menstruating/urinating/defecating and childfree or being able to have a short pregnancy lasting an hour", "with bodies not affected by pregnancy or breast-feeding", "60 cubits (27.5 m or 90 ft) tall", "7 cubits (3.2 m or 10 ft) in width", "transparent to the marrow of their bones", "eternally young", "hairless except the eyebrows and the head", "pure", "beautiful","

Simply put, they're android sex toys..

You're probably Muslim or an apologist for Islam, but put that aside for now.
Right -they are sex toys as you said.

As I pointed out Quran EXPLICITLY says that these virgin women will have LARGE BREASTS.
This is not a "superficial" characteristic. It is what it is.

"Male" houris dont have large breasts, ok? What kind of genders have you been exposed to in real life to come to the conclusion that males have large breasts?

Vague general apologetics such as "they are for everyone and are just for enjoyment" is bullshit and you failed to say anything that negated or refuted what I said about 78:33 (them having large breasts).

Neither a muslim, nor an apologist for it. I'm actually an atheist (or lapsed Catholic agnostic, depending on your definitions). That being said, I dislike RADICAL Islam ideas, Jihad, suicide bombing etc. I just don't believe that ALL the people who follow a particular religion are as bad as the small number that get all the press.

And it's not really important whether the houris have large breast or small breasts, is it?
In Middle Eastern culture of the time, and various other cultures as well, large breast were considered evidence of ability to have lots of health children, so the point made about large breasted virgins is just icing on the cake. ( either that or the guy who wrote it really liked big boobies)

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Xaseui

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #106 - Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 12:39am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:30am:

Neither a muslim, nor an apologist for it. I'm actually an atheist (or lapsed Catholic agnostic, depending on your definitions). That being said, I dislike RADICAL Islam ideas, Jihad, suicide bombing etc. I just don't believe that ALL the people who follow a particular religion are as bad as the small number that get all the press.

Where did I say that all Muslims are bad? Are you stupid? Why are you making assumptions?

Quote:

And it's not really important whether the houris have large breast or small breasts, is it?
In Middle Eastern culture of the time, and various other cultures as well, large breast were considered evidence of ability to have lots of health children, so the point made about large breasted virgins is just icing on the cake. ( either that or the guy who wrote it really liked big boobies)

Yes it is important. Their God is making a promise "You be a good boy and you get virgins with BIG TITS".
That is important to point out, alright Muslim.

Stop apologizing for Islam.

If you are an atheist as you claim, wtf is your problem? I'm talking to MUSLIMS and asking them what they think of their God making a promise that they're going to get virgins with big tits.
And you come here claiming you're an atheist and say "oh its not a big deal. Their God was talking about big tits because big tits are healthy for babies, thats all".
You think that's believable?
You're making excuses for Islam and you are a Muslim, so stop lying you are an atheist and gtfo out of this debate because I'm looking for a Muslim response.
And even if you think Allah was talking about BIG TITS in Quran 78:33 because they're healthy for babies, so what? Obviously its still embarrassing for Muslims and it will always be no matter how much they deny it or make excuses like you did.
It is because no Muslim dared to to respond when I brought up 78:33.
If Quran said women will get men with big dicks in Heaven, you the "atheist" (according to yourself) would be here making excuses that Allah made that promise so that the women are more sure to get pregnant when the couple wants to make a baby. Right "atheist"?

So once again lets remember that, as mentioned in Quran 78:33, Allah the Muslim God promised Muslim men virgins with BIG TITS.

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« Last Edit: Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 2:09am by Xaseui »

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #107 - Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 6:48am

Xaseui wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 12:39am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2013 at 8:30am:

Neither a muslim, nor an apologist for it. I'm actually an atheist (or lapsed Catholic agnostic, depending on your definitions). That being said, I dislike RADICAL Islam ideas, Jihad, suicide bombing etc. I just don't believe that ALL the people who follow a particular religion are as bad as the small number that get all the press.

Where did I say that all Muslims are bad? Are you stupid? Why are you making assumptions?

Quote:

And it's not really important whether the houris have large breast or small breasts, is it?
In Middle Eastern culture of the time, and various other cultures as well, large breast were considered evidence of ability to have lots of health children, so the point made about large breasted virgins is just icing on the cake. ( either that or the guy who wrote it really liked big boobies)

Yes it is important. Their God is making a promise "You be a good boy and you get virgins with BIG TITS".
That is important to point out, alright Muslim.

Stop apologizing for Islam.

If you are an atheist as you claim, wtf is your problem? I'm talking to MUSLIMS and asking them what they think of their God making a promise that they're going to get virgins with big tits.
And you come here claiming you're an atheist and say "oh its not a big deal. Their God was talking about big tits because big tits are healthy for babies, thats all".
You think that's believable?
You're making excuses for Islam and you are a Muslim, so stop lying you are an atheist and gtfo out of this debate because I'm looking for a Muslim response.
And even if you think Allah was talking about BIG TITS in Quran 78:33 because they're healthy for babies, so what? Obviously its still embarrassing for Muslims and it will always be no matter how much they deny it or make excuses like you did.
It is because no Muslim dared to to respond when I brought up 78:33.
If Quran said women will get men with big dicks in Heaven, you the "atheist" (according to yourself) would be here making excuses that Allah made that promise so that the women are more sure to get pregnant when the couple wants to make a baby. Right "atheist"?

So once again lets remember that, as mentioned in Quran 78:33, Allah the Muslim God promised Muslim men virgins with BIG TITS.

If you don't think all muslims are bad, then why are you in such a taking over the offer of big tits??

My comment about not believing all members of a religion are as bad etc applies equally to all religions.
My 'problem' is about accuracy, if you are going to have a go at someone, or some group, it's better to complain about whats really wrong instead of making stuff up, or nitpicking.

Speaking of 'assumptions', it's absolutely amazing the number that the rabid and silly make on these forums. I've been called Jewish ( I'm not) because I don't think Israel should be wiped out, Catholic ( not anymore) because I don't accept the the Inquisition is still going on, or that ALL priest are child molesters,
A Freemason because I said the Pope ISN'T one, in 'the pay' of oil companies because I'm skeptical of AGW ( I wish I was, it'd be great to earn a wage to play on the internet) and NOW, a muslim, because I made a minor correction to your rant.

If I was a member of Islam (which I'm not, again) I'd be concerned about a lot more than the bra size of my promised companion in the 'Afterlife'...I'd be wondering is the an 'Afterlife' at all.

All religions sweeten the pot by tailoring 'Paradise' to the preferences and habits of the members, that's how you attract followers.
In the case of Islam, that means aiming at male virility, which is demonstrated by the number of children.
The Church of England split from the Catholic Church over divorce rulings.
The Norse religions version of 'Paradise' was centred around feasting and drinking with Odin and co, again a slightly improved
repeat of what the followers did in life.
Christian 'Paradise' is based on resting, because the Christian religion pushes the concept of working constantly in life, so the followers like to not work in their spare time.

Being an atheist doesn't mean you need to actively confront and attack everyone else's beliefs or attack everyone who doesn't act the same as you.

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #108 - Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 7:07am

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 4:30pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 3:47pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 12:18pm:

Lets review your so called evidence for aisha reaching puberty-

Great idea - but I think I have a better one...

How about you address something that is actually relevant to your BS claim that Aisha was prepubescent at time of consummation?

Like say, how about for once you provide evidence for your made up claim that:

Quote:

Multiple sahih hadeeth say Mo banged his child bride before she reached puberty

??

How many times do i have to post them in this thread?

Once would suffice.

Quote:

You have no evidence Aisha did reach puberty, you are clutching at straws to defend you pedo profit.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #109 - Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 4:09pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 30^th, 2013 at 12:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 28^th, 2013 at 1:13pm:

Do you have any shame at all baron? Even just a little bit?

Lets review your so called evidence for aisha reaching puberty-
Quote:

I had seen my parents following Islam since i reached the age of puberty...

My father Abu Bakr built a mosque....
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/8/124

Then we have this verse which says the same thing about the mosque yet Aisha does not mention puberty-
Quote:

Since i reached the age which i could remember things...

Abu Bakr built a mosque in....
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/39/8

In those 2 verses Aisha mentions her father thinking about and building a mosque, in one verse Aisha mentions puberty and the other says the age which she could remember things, so which one is it did she reach puberty or the age which she could remember things?

Aisha remembers playing with dolls in this sahih hadith which is not allowed for girls who have reached puberty, she said she with with Mo the pedo and not her parents,Mo brought her friends to play it was not her parents, this hadith was after the marriage was consummated which means Aisha had not reached puberty.
Quote:

I used to play with dolls when i was with the messenger of Allah,and he used to bring my friends to play with me (sahih)
www.sunnah.com/urn/1263010

Then we look at what al Tabari says about banging prepubescent girls from Quran 65/4
Quote:

The interpretation of this verse 65/4

The same applies to iddah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them

www.islamqa.com/en/12708

You were in denial about Mohammad banging his sex slaves, you are in denial about Mo being a pedophile.

Why did Aisha have no children with Mohammad and why have you avoided this question?
Aisha had her first menses around 15-16,Mo died when she was 18, there are hadith where Aisha says Mo has control like no other, perhaps he was suffering from erectile dysfunction in his last 2 years.
Why did Safiyya,Juwairiya and his other wives produce no children, did Mo give them a STD like gonorrhea which made his wives infertile?

Religious people are deaf dumb and blind when it comes to what is written in their so called holy books.

Mohammad had intercourse with a nine year old child,what does medical science say about puberty
Quote:

Menstrual periods: 10 - 16.5 years of age.
www.lpch.org/DiseaseHealthInfo/HealthLibrary/adolescent/paf.html

When we look at Gandalf's so called evidence for Aisha reaching puberty before that dirty old pedo had intercourse with her aged 9 he is on shaky ground by claiming 8/124 is evidence of anything except perhaps the usual lies and deception from muslims.

The Indonesian translation says-
"Aku belum mengerti kedua orang tuaku kecuali saat keduanya memeluk agama ini"
Which has no mention of puberty and basically says I haven't known a time when my parents weren't muslim.
So why does the Indonesian translation make no mention of puberty, why does the english translation differ,interesting isn't it?

If we look for the arabic word for puberty you will find it is not in the bukhari verse gandalf claims is evidence of her reaching puberty, so why are muslims like Gandalf claiming that verse mentions puberty,are they ignorant or deliberately deceptive?
Here it is-https://www.google.com.au/#q=arabic+word+for+puberty

This muslim appears to be close to what it really says-
Quote:

I indicated in the hadith it literally mentions her reaching puberty.

The hadeeth itself says-
That the wife of the profit gathered or attained the age of reasoning

Age of reasoning is a euphemism in almost all known languages to refer to a child entering a state of adulthood.

Muslim website-www.callingchristians.com/2013/11/01/sam-shamouns-minion-is-as-uneducated-as-he-...

If you click on the about us- its an Islamic website.

So the only evidence Gandalf has for Aisha reaching puberty does not even mention puberty in the Arabic or Indonesian verses yet for some reason instead of saying the "age of reasoning" it says puberty in the english translation.

Gandalf's only evidence has been refuted,Mo was Pedo and allah demands 20% of all war booty.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #110 - Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 9:40pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 4:09pm:

This muslim appears to be close to what it really says-
Quote:
I indicated in the hadith it literally mentions her reaching puberty.

The hadeeth itself says-
That the wife of the profit gathered or attained the age of reasoning

Age of reasoning is a euphemism in almost all known languages to refer to a child entering a state of adulthood.

Right, so let me get this straight Baron, Aisha claims that she entered a "state of adulthood" long before her marriage to Muhammad was consummated.

So one could deduce from this that Aisha was "adult" at the time of consummation Grin

Tell me Baron, what biological event has universally represented a child entering a state of adulthood across all cultures since time immemorial?

Thanks for supporting my case Baron.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #111 - Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 9:50pm

Oh you goose Baron. That guy you quoted on the calling christians site is actually arguing the case that AIsha had reached puberty.

Quote:

That the wife of the Prophet (peace be upon him) gathered or attained the age of reasoning, i.e. puberty. Age of reasoning is a euphemism in almost all known languages to refer to a child entering into a state of adulthood/ sexual maturation

- gee whiz Baron, I wonder why you left out those last two words in your quote? Grin

and this is what else he said that you seem to have missed:

Quote:

I demonstrated quite simply that she herself admitted to having been in the state of puberty, i.e. sexual maturation – that is to no longer be a child but to now be a young adult in relation to her marriage with the Prophet (peace be upon him).

and again..

Quote:

what I did say is that it is commonly known that children are not responsible for their actions until they are baligh or mature, i.e. attained puberty. Thus when puberty occurs, by this time, they can exercise their mental faculties to differentiate between right and wrong, hence why it is also known as the age of reasoning.

Go back to your cave Baron.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #112 - Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 12:16am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 9:40pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 4:09pm:

This muslim appears to be close to what it really says-
Quote:
I indicated in the hadith it literally mentions her reaching puberty.

The hadeeth itself says-
That the wife of the profit gathered or attained the age of reasoning

Age of reasoning is a euphemism in almost all known languages to refer to a child entering a state of adulthood.

Right, so let me get this straight Baron, Aisha claims that she entered a "state of adulthood" long before her marriage to Muhammad was consummated.

So one could deduce from this that Aisha was "adult" at the time of consummation Grin

Tell me Baron, what biological event has universally represented a child entering a state of adulthood across all cultures since time immemorial?

Thanks for supporting my case Baron.

I used your fellow muslims website as evidence the english translation of bukhari by Muhsin Khan does not say puberty, as your brother pointed out he thinks it says age of reason and puts his own spin on it.

There is no mention of puberty in the original arabic or Indonesian translation, it does not even say age of reason.
The literal translation of 8/124 goes- "I was not aware of my parents other than the two of them both acknowledged the religion"
There is no mention of puberty or age of reason in the arabic or Indonesian translation of 8/124.

As for 39/8 which mentions the exact same mosque her father built- "Since i reached the age which i could remember things" the Indonesian translation says she had not reached puberty.
Aku belum lagi baligh ketika bapakku sudah memeluk Islam
"I was not yet at puberty when my father had embraced Islam"

The Indonesian translations of 8/124 and 39/8 destroy the only evidence you thought you had, the original arabic from 8/124 is highlighted.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #113 - Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 12:27am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2013 at 9:50pm:

Oh you goose Baron. That guy you quoted on the calling christians site is actually arguing the case that AIsha had reached puberty.

Quote:

That the wife of the Prophet (peace be upon him) gathered or attained the age of reasoning, i.e. puberty. Age of reasoning is a euphemism in almost all known languages to refer to a child entering into a state of adulthood/ sexual maturation

- gee whiz Baron, I wonder why you left out those last two words in your quote? Grin

and this is what else he said that you seem to have missed:

Quote:

I demonstrated quite simply that she herself admitted to having been in the state of puberty, i.e. sexual maturation – that is to no longer be a child but to now be a young adult in relation to her marriage with the Prophet (peace be upon him).

and again..

Quote:

what I did say is that it is commonly known that children are not responsible for their actions until they are baligh or mature, i.e. attained puberty. Thus when puberty occurs, by this time, they can exercise their mental faculties to differentiate between right and wrong, hence why it is also known as the age of reasoning.

Go back to your cave Baron.

I left those words out because the age a child can reason is lower than the age of sexual maturity.

If you want to argue the age a child can reason is also the age when you can have sex with them what can i say, muslims will do anything to justify their pedo $profit.

So what is your evidence,a verse that mentions nothing about puberty or age of reason in the original arabic or Indonesian translation is somehow evidence for what?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #114 - Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 7:09am

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 12:16am:

I used your fellow muslims website as evidence the english translation of bukhari by Muhsin Khan does not say puberty, as your brother pointed out he thinks it says age of reason and puts his own spin on it.

There is no mention of puberty in the original arabic or Indonesian translation, it does not even say age of reason.
The literal translation of 8/124 goes- "I was not aware of my parents other than the two of them both acknowledged the religion"
There is no mention of puberty or age of reason in the arabic or Indonesian translation of 8/124.

Check your sources Baron. That is not 8/124 being quoted - it is 63/131. Double check the arabic quote that calling christians uses. It is from this hadith, not 8/124.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!! Reply #115 - Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 9:14am OK, on further investigation, the arabic phrase in question is used in both hadith. Interesting. I have asked for further information on another islamic forum: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?384065-Question-about-bukhari-hadith lets see what responses we get.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #116 - Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 9:30am

It is 8/124 i have quoted with a correct translation from Arabic,Muhsin Khan has stuffed up the english translation and he has the most common english version of Sahih al Bukhari which everyone seems to quote from.

The Indonesian translations also make no mention of age of reason or puberty in 8/124, with 39/8 the Indonesian translation says she had not reached puberty.

My Pakistani friends are on holidays so i cannot get an opinion on the Urdu translations,I have Indonesian ex muslim friends who have confirmed the Indonesian translation does not mention puberty or age of reason in 8/124 yet it does mention Aisha had not reached puberty in 39/8

So we now have 3 hadeeth that mention the mosque Abu Bakr built with 66/131,39/8 and the incorrect translation by Muhsin Khan in 8/124 mentioning puberty.

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salad in

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #117 - Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 9:39am

Greetings brothers and sisters. I have been waiting for someone to offer evidence that Aisha was in fact female. Sure we've had plenty of assumptions but no proof. I have read the texts and can find no evidence that the person hiding under that black tent was a female. It may well be that mohammmmmer married a boy.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!! Reply #118 - Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 9:55am Baron why would I care about the Indonesian translation? Its no better than an English translation. Lets wait and see if we can find more information about the actual arabic.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #119 - Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 10:24am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2013 at 9:55am:

Baron why would I care about the Indonesian translation? Its no better than an English translation. Lets wait and see if we can find more information about the actual arabic.

The Indonesian translation of 39/8 says Aisha had not reached puberty, i can see why you dont care for that.

You should ask Ummah.com about the Indonesian translation of 39/8.

The original Arabic in 8/124 does not mention puberty or age of reason,do you want to put money on that? Roll Eyes

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