Australian Politics Forum - Evidence gone missing

Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #30 - Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:30pm

True Colours wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:26pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:09pm:

you claimed Aisha reached puberty before age 6

Muslims do not claim that Aishah reached puberty at 6. She obviously had definitely not reached puberty then because she did not move into the prophet's household when she was 6.

Gandalf claims bukhari/8/124 is evidence for when Aisha reached puberty.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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True Colours

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #31 - Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:36pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:09pm:

www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_and_Puberty

The site is full of misinformation and mistranslations linked to Jewish-funded websites - probably run by Mossad.

An example is a translation of a hadeeth that quotes Aishah saying hat she had not reached puberty. However, puberty is never mentioned in the original Arabic version of the hadeeth.

The term "jaariyah" in Arabic simply means youthful female. In Arab culture at the time, anybody under the age of 40 was considered to be youthful.

If one looks at the context of the hadeeth, one would come to the conclusion that Aisha had reached puberty at the time.

Why?

The hadeeth says that Aishah was screened. In Islam, pre-pubertal girls are not required to be screened or covered, and neither are elderly women required to do so.

Quote:

‘Aa’ishah, narrated that Asma’ bint Abi Bakr entered upon the Messenger of God (peace and blessings of God be upon him) wearing a thin dress. The Messenger of God turned away from her and said, “O Asmaa! When a woman reaches the age of puberty, nothing should be seen of her except this and this” – and he pointed to his face and hands.
- Abu Dawood

It is a general principle of Islam that a person is treated as child until they reach puberty, from which age they must perform all the obligatory tasks such as women covering themselves in the presence of unrelated men:
Quote:

“The Pen has been lifted from three: from the child until he reaches puberty, from the sleeper until he wakes up, and from the one who has lost his mind until he recovers.”
- Abu Dawood

So obviously when Aisha talks about how a "jaariyah" is being treated, she is talking about a young woman who has reached puberty and is in the full flower of womanhood, not some pre-pubescent child or an elderly woman.

Why are you relying on distorted mistranslations Freediver? Is it because you are an idiot or is because you are trying to fool people?

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« Last Edit: Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 5:30pm by True Colours »

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!! Reply #32 - Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 5:26pm Hi Baron Any luck on finding that elusive proof that Aisha had her first menses at 15? Or how about those "other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty"?
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Grendel

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #33 - Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 2:29pm:

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 1:29pm:

gandalf... might do you good to actually read what people write and their links.

You mean the wiki and guardian articles that provide not a shred of supporting evidence for the claim that Aisha was prepubescent?

I don't consider a girl of 10 who has her periods an adult... do you?
Be that as it may.
I consider both articles to be of interest on the subject.
BTW there is no proof anywhere they shows she was or was not "prepubescent" as you seem to demand.
Have you proof for your claims?
BTW I've never called Mohammed a pedophile so don't give me any attitude about it ok. I get enough attitude from the retard family.

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Torpedo

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #34 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 12:07am

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 21^st, 2013 at 9:28am:

Salad, don't be obtuse. The evidence irrefutably proves that Muhammad was a lustful filthy pedophile who was definitely banging

I am not defending FDs claims, but let me ask you, do you suggest it was ok to marry the girl, even if she was 9? And do you then worship this act as holy? Roll Eyes

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Torpedo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 867 Sydney Gender:	Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!! Reply #35 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 12:17am True Colours wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:36pm: person is treated as child until they reach puberty, from which age they must perform all the obligatory [b]tasks such as women covering themselves in the presence of unrelated men: unbelievable, I mean, unbelievable lying believers...
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salad in

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #36 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:40am

As-salam alaykum brothers and sisters. The matter of the union between muhammmmmar and alicia has caused much debate. Let it be known to all that the child was taken into marriage and bedded by muhammmmmar at a tender age.

Quote:

The thought of an old man becoming aroused by a child is one of the most disturbing thoughts that makes us cringe as it reminds us of pedophilia and the most despicable people. It is difficult to accept that the Holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6-years-old and consummated his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Some Muslims claim that it was Abu Bakr who approached Muhammad asking him to marry his daughter. This is of course not true and here is the proof.

Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

I am Saladin; the Expected One, the Right Guided One. I knoweth all things. The story of the two people involved in this sordid affair is endorsed by me and so carries a certain cachet. I do hope that some people aren't suggesting that little alicia was guilty of coquettishness. A 6-year-old would not understand such behaviour.

I have spoken.

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The ALP, the progressive party, the party of ideas, the workers' friend, is the only Australian political party to roast four young Australians in roof cavities. SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #37 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 9:59am

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

I don't consider a girl of 10 who has her periods an adult... do you?

No, but thats an entirely different matter. I'm debating the point about whether or not the Prophet had sex with a prepubescent girl. Baron and FD claim he did based on absolutely no evidence - despite their assurances there was evidence.

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

BTW there is no proof anywhere they shows she was or was not "prepubescent" as you seem to demand.

Burden of proof. FD and Baron (and the rest of the islamophobes) are making the claim he was having sex with a prepbbuscent girl. Its their claim to prove, not mine.

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

Have you proof for your claims?

not my claim to prove

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

BTW I've never called Mohammed a pedophile so don't give me any attitude about it ok.

No attitude intended - but apologies if I came across that way

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #38 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 10:17am

Torpedo wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 12:07am:

I am not defending FDs claims, but let me ask you, do you suggest it was ok to marry the girl, even if she was 9?

This is what people always fail to understand - this was not Muhammad the lustful dirty old man looking for some action - this was Muhammad the statesman performing a political act. Muhammad wanted her father to succeed him, and boosting his leadership credentials through marriage was seen as very important. Thats what statesmen have done from time immemorial - forge alliances, boost existing alliances and secure loyalty within society through marriage. As for her being 6 - Muhammad was already 50, and no doubt well above the average life expectency. He simply didn't have time to wait around until she was 20.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Datalife

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #39 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 10:40am

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 9:59am:

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

I don't consider a girl of 10 who has her periods an adult... do you?

No, but thats an entirely different matter. I'm debating the point about whether or not the Prophet had sex with a prepubescent girl. Baron and FD claim he did based on absolutely no evidence - despite their assurances there was evidence.

Tis just you that brought up the prepubescent gear whilst dancing on the head of the pin. In your mind, if there was grass on the pitch therefore he was no pedo.

Your prophet then is pure.

Told you the way out of your dilemma and idiotic tap dancing, you just need to accept that by modern western standards he was a pedo but cannot be judged by those standards as he is a product of a different time.

Frankly your limbo act is looking a bit ragged.

pe·do·phil·ia
noun \ˌpe-də-ˈfi-lē-ə, ˈpē-\

: sexual feelings or activities that involve children

Full Definition of PEDOPHILIA

: sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedophilia

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #40 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 10:42am

True Colours wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:36pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 4:09pm:

www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_and_Puberty

The site is full of misinformation and mistranslations linked to Jewish-funded websites - probably run by Mossad.

Why are you relying on distorted mistranslations Freediver? Is it because you are an idiot or is because you are trying to fool people?

Your own Islamic websites state Aisha had not reached puberty, do you expect a rational person to believe your lies or what an Islamic website says about Aisha not reaching puberty?

Quote:

So you may deduce from this event how a little girl

who has not reached the age of puberty

www.sunnah.com/bukhari/67/169

Quote:

The playing with dolls and other similar images is forbidden,but it was allowed for Aisha at that time,as she was a little girl not yet reached the age of puberty
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/78/157

Your own Islamic sources say Aisha had not reached puberty, does sunnah.com have a link to Quran.com at the top of the page?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #41 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 10:44am

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 5:26pm:

Hi Baron

Any luck on finding that elusive proof that Aisha had her first menses at 15?

Or how about those "other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty"?

Yes and i have posted it numerous times, you might ignore the evidence from your own Islamic websites i doubt others will.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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True Colours

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #42 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 11:03am

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

I don't consider a girl of 10 who has her periods an adult... do you?

What does it matter your opinion or my opinion?

What does science say?

Quote:

Adult

Biologically, an adult is a human being or other organism that has reached sexual maturity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult

If you want to talk about mental maturity, puberty is also the age at which human beings develop the understand of right and wrong - there is a defacto recognition of pubertal age as being the point of adult responsibility in our legal system:

Quote:

Age of criminal responsibility in Australia

In the context of Australian law, doli incapax acts as a rebuttable presumption for children aged at least 10 but less than 14

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_criminal_responsibility_in_Australia

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #43 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 2:06pm

Datalife wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 10:40am:

Tis just you that brought up the prepubescent gear whilst dancing on the head of the pin. In your mind, if there was grass on the pitch therefore he was no pedo.

Your prophet then is pure.

Told you the way out of your dilemma and idiotic tap dancing, you just need to accept that by modern western standards he was a pedo but cannot be judged by those standards as he is a product of a different time.

Frankly your limbo act is looking a bit ragged.

Look data, I would be perfectly fine with people saying "yeah she may have been post-pubescent - I can't really prove that she wasn't - but either way its immoral to have sex with a 9 year old". No problem whatsoever. That would be a great place for all sides to say "we agree to disagree".

But Baron and FD simply will not leave it there - they are the ones who continually keep bringing up the puberty thing and saying she was definitely prepubescent and we have the evidence to prove it. Just look at Baron's last response - still flogging that dead horse, pretending he has provided the evidence when he hasn't. No doubt if and when FD ever comes back he will continue insisting that a hadith describing Aisha being veiled by Muhammad somehow proves they were having sex (go figure).

Its not really about a moral argument - this is not about me dancing on a pinhead to justify having sex with a young girl - its about being intellectually honest about a simply historical fact. And the fact is, Baron and FD blinded by their hatred of islam, can't accept their glaring dishonesty about this rather simple point of historical fact: namely they keep insisting Muhammad had sex with a prepubescent girl, but have not a shred of evidence to back it up.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #44 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 2:10pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 10:44am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 5:26pm:

Hi Baron

Any luck on finding that elusive proof that Aisha had her first menses at 15?

Or how about those "other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty"?

Yes and i have posted it numerous times, you might ignore the evidence from your own Islamic websites i doubt others will.

You only posted the same wiki-islam flawed logic about her possessing dolls - which I have thoroughly debunked before.

You have never produced anything at all to back up your claim that she had her first menses at 15. Not even wiki-islam is touching that one.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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