Australian Politics Forum - Evidence gone missing

Baronvonrort

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #45 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 2:45pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 2:10pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 10:44am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 5:26pm:

Hi Baron

Any luck on finding that elusive proof that Aisha had her first menses at 15?

Or how about those "other sahih hadith that say she had not reached puberty"?

Yes and i have posted it numerous times, you might ignore the evidence from your own Islamic websites i doubt others will.

You only posted the same wiki-islam flawed logic about her possessing dolls - which I have thoroughly debunked before.

You have never produced anything at all to back up your claim that she had her first menses at 15. Not even wiki-islam is touching that one.

You have debunked nothing, if you think you have debunked the dolls then try selling your horse manure to the ex muslims at the council of ex muslims forum and post a link back here in this thread if they buy your nonsense.
www.councilofexmuslims.com
If the council of ex muslims is a muslim hating website then explain how 'debunker" a Saudi muslim was voted poster of the month.

Here is the hadith that mentions Aisha's first menses, you claimed wiki islam is not touching that one yet anyone who clicks on the wiki islam link will see they do mention it,what do they say?
Quote:

We set out to perform Hajj..and when we reached Sarif i got my menses.
Pedo profit said- Have you got your menses
Aisha- yes
Pedo profit-This is a thing allah has ordained for you.
www.sunnah.com/bukhari/6/1

Does Mo say to all his wives every time they have their menses-This is what allah has ordained for you?

From wiki islam who you claim will not touch exactly what,do they mention the hadith cited above from an Islamic website?
Quote:

Conclusion-
It is clear that Aisha was below the age of puberty at the age of 14 (When Mo raped pillaged and plundered the Jews known as the Banu Mustaliq) or at 15 with the Ethiopian slaves incident,and had her first menses at the age of 16 during the journey for Hajj.
We know Mo the pedo banged her when she was 9 and the average age of menarche is 12-13.
It is without doubt that Muhammad had sex with a child below the age of puberty
How many times has this link appeared in this thread?www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_and_Puberty

You might ignore the evidence i post and pretend it does not exist i doubt others reading this will.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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moses

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #46 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 3:40pm

True Colours wrote: Quote:

Adult
Biologically, an adult is a human being or other organism that has reached sexual maturity.

Maturity Noun:The period of time in your life after your physical growth has stopped and you are fully developed.

Let's see T.C. are you implying that Aisha, at nine years of age, had completely experienced those many formative years of childhood / puberty / adolescence / then maturing into a fully developed adult?

That in nine short years Aisha had completely altered her physical and psychological attributes (a process that takes years) to the point where she could be considered a mature, fully developed sexual partner for a man five times her age?

There is no proof that Aisha had undergone this transformation from child to fully matured adult.

At best, muslims and their apologists denials and outright lies, hinge on the pathetic argument that nine year old Aisha had entered puberty.

You also wrote:
Quote:

Age of criminal responsibility in Australia
In the context of Australian law, doli incapax acts as a rebuttable presumption for children aged at least 10 but less than 14

Do you understand what you have posted T.C.?

Quote:

Age of criminal responsibility in Australia
The age of criminal responsibility in Australia is the age below which a child is deemed incapable of having committed a criminal offence. In legal terms, it is referred to as a defense of infancy.

All States of Australia have adopted a uniform age of criminal responsibility.

Doli incapax refers to a presumption that a child is "incapable of crime" under legislation or common law. Or rather, the presumption that a child cannot form mens rea as they do not yet have a sufficient understanding between "right and wrong". In the context of Australian law, doli incapax acts as a rebuttable presumption for children aged at least 10 but less than 14.

Quote:

Rebuttable presumption:
Both in common law and in civil law, a rebuttable presumption (in Latin, praesumptio iuris tantum) is an assumption made by a court, one that is taken to be true unless someone comes forward to contest it and prove otherwise. For example, a defendant in a criminal case is presumed innocent until proved guilty. A rebuttable presumption is often associated with prima facie evidence.

Rebuttable presumptions in criminal law are somewhat controversial in that they do effectively reverse the presumption of innocence in some cases. For example, in the United Kingdom, Section 75 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 makes several rebuttable presumptions about mens rea and consent to sexual activity.

In some cases however, a rebuttable presumption can also work in favor of the accused. For instance, in Australia, there is a rebuttable presumption that a child aged at least 10 but less than 14 is incapable of committing a criminal act.

Source

The Commonwealth and every State and Territory clearly specify that under 10 years of age, an individual is deemed a child, rebuttable presumption takes effect 10 years to under 14, the person is only deemed an adult at age 18

So you see T.C. a nine year old is definitely a child, being under 10. From 10 to 14 rebuttable presumption takes effect, the person is still considered a child. You are not adjudged to be adult until age 18.

So in 2013 in the enlightened west, a nine year old girl is a child.

muhammad engaged in sexual deviancy (sex with a child) or as everybody keeps saying: muhammad was a pedophile

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 42236	Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!! Reply #47 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 4:17pm As usual, in the effort to attack anything Muslim, I think many here have lost sight of the purpose of the thread. Freediver and the Baron claimed they had evidence. Freediver even cited a thread where that evidence had been posted. It wasn't there. Freediver lied.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #48 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 5:01pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 2:45pm:

Here is the hadith that mentions Aisha's first menses, you claimed wiki islam is not touching that one yet anyone who clicks on the wiki islam link will see they do mention it,what do they say?

I see. Now if you could just provide some proof that this is her first menses...

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 2:45pm:

Does Mo say to all his wives every time they have their menses-This is what allah has ordained for you?

If he's accompanying them on their first Hajj, quite likely.

Its pretty obvious what this is about Baron - Aisha has her heart set on performing the Hajj, but on the way gets her period. This hadith is instructions on what women can and can't do on the hajj when menstruating:

"So do what all the pilgrims do with the exception of the Tawaf (Circumambulation) round the Ka`ba"

There is nothing in this that suggests this was her first menses. This is you clutching at straws as usual.

Baronvonrort wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 2:45pm:

You have debunked nothing, if you think you have debunked the dolls then try selling your horse manure to the ex muslims

Well you never did have an answer to the fact that there is no mention of her playing with the dolls - which is the only thing mentioned that is prohibited. You were never able to provide any evidence that mere possession of dolls is prohibited for post-pubescent girls.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Grendel

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #49 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 9:59am:

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

I don't consider a girl of 10 who has her periods an adult... do you?

No, but thats an entirely different matter. I'm debating the point about whether or not the Prophet had sex with a prepubescent girl.

really I thought the claim was he was a pedophile?

Baron and FD claim he did based on absolutely no evidence - despite their assurances there was evidence.

Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent. Even the islamic texts they quote as proof of this... since none of us were alive then... seem to indicate this belief.

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

BTW there is no proof anywhere that shows she was or was not "prepubescent" as you seem to demand.

Burden of proof. FD and Baron (and the rest of the islamophobes) are making the claim he was having sex with a prepbbuscent girl. Its their claim to prove, not mine.

Well being a fair minded person one would expect you would subject yourself to the same level of proof.

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

Have you proof for your claims?

not my claim to prove

You claim they are wrong... where's your proof?

Grendel wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

BTW I've never called Mohammed a pedophile so don't give me any attitude about it ok.

No attitude intended - but apologies if I came across that way

Did you read the 2nd link? it is written by a Muslim.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #50 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:30pm

Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

really I thought the claim was he was a pedophile?

Just take a quick look at the dead horse Baron is flogging.

Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent.

Show me a single muslim who thinks she was prepubescent - after consummation I mean. There are none.

Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

Well being a fair minded person one would expect you would subject yourself to the same level of proof.

Why? I'm not the one making the claim that the sources "prove" she was prepubescent at time of consummation.

Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

You claim they are wrong... where's your proof?

Thats not how it works. Burden of proof is not on me.

Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

Did you read the 2nd link? it is written by a Muslim.

Of course I did. Its a very good article - and supports everything I've been saying.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Xaseui

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #51 - Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 11:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:30pm:

Show me a single muslim who thinks she was prepubescent - after consummation I mean. There are none.

Is that your best argument, Muslim? Thats like saying: "show me a single Muslim who thinks Islam is false".
What Muslims think of a certain issue is not relevant. What is relevant is what is present in Islamic documents like the Quran and hadith.
Multiple Sahih hadiths show Muhammad got engaged to Aisha when she was 6 and married her and had sex with her (consummated) when she was 9.
Others have already proven you wrong.

But your invalid requirement is met here:
Quote:

In summary, Dr Muhsin Khan in the official text published in the Islamic University; Al-Medina Al-Munauwara, Saudi Arabia, says in two related ahadith that Aisha had not reached puberty when she was 15 years old

see the same link posted before: wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_and_Puberty (this stupid forum wont let me post links even though I successfully entered 5 different captchas, which is unsual for registration. Usually there's only one or two)

So there you have it. Thats a Muslim who says Aisha did not reach puberty when she was 15.

If you think its ok for a 54 year old man to have sex with a 9 year old, you are the typical Muslim defending his "Prophet" who many rightfully call a pedophile.

Quote:

Narrated Al-Qasim: ‘Aisha said, “We set out with the sole intention of performing Hajj and when we reached Sarif, (a place six miles from Mecca) I got my menses. Allah’s Apostle came to me while I was weeping. He said ‘What is the matter with you? Have you got your menses?’ I replied, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is a thing which Allah has ordained for the daughters of Adam. [ .. shortened ]” ‘Aisha added, “Allah’s Apostle sacrificed cows on behalf of his wives.”
Sahih Bukhari 1:6:293

Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad: ‘ Aisha said, “We set out with Allah’s Apostles in the months of Hajj, and (in) the nights of Hajj, and at the time and places of Hajj and in a state of Hajj. We dismounted at Sarif (a village six miles from Mecca). The Prophet then addressed his companions and said, “Anyone who has not got the Hadi and likes to do Umra instead of Hajj may do so (i.e. Hajj-al-Tamattu) and anyone who has got the Hadi should not finish the Ihram after performing ‘ Umra). (i.e. Hajj-al-Qiran). Aisha added, “The companions of the Prophet obeyed the above (order) and some of them (i.e. who did not have Hadi) finished their Ihram after Umra.” Allah’s Apostle and some of his companions were resourceful and had the Hadi with them, they could not perform Umra (alone) (but had to perform both Hajj and Umra with one Ihram). Aisha added, “Allah’s Apostle came to me and saw me weeping and said, “What makes you weep, O Hantah?” I replied, “I have heard your conversation with your companions and I cannot perform the Umra.” He asked, “What is wrong with you?’ I replied, ‘I do not offer the prayers (i.e. I have my menses).’ He said, ‘It will not harm you for you are one of the daughters of Adam, and Allah has written for you (this state) as He has written it for them. Keep on with your intentions for Hajj and Allah may reward you that.” Aisha further added, “Then we proceeded for Hajj till we reached Mina and I became clean from my menses.
Sahih Bukhari 2:26:631

The two hadiths above, tell us the age when Aisha got her first menses. Her marriage was consummated in the year 622, and this journey for hajj took place in 629. Therefore, Aisha was about sixteen years old at the time of her first menstruation.

So in summary:
- multiple sahih hadith explicitly say that she was 6/9 when engaged/married (and had sex) with 51/54 year old Muhammad
- Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9 (the word "consummated" is used in hadith)
- Your requirement of finding a Muslim who believes she had not reached puberty at 15 years of age, is met. I can find many other Muslims.
- Usually girls do not reach puberty at 9 years old. Its YOUR job to prove that she did reach puberty at 9.
- EVEN if she did, Muhammad was still a pedophile. According to wikipedia: "As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia or paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in persons 16 years of age or older typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest toward prepubescent children (generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnostic criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13)."

Again, its a 9 year old girl and you as a Muslim (defender of your prophet) are saying that its ok to have sex with a 9 year old girl.

Would you be perfectly happy if a 51 year old man knocked on your door and wanted to be engaged to your 6 year old daughter, and have sex with her when she's 9 year old?

Your "prophet" had lust for a 9 year old girl and here you are defending him so you can get the large breasted virgins he promised you in Quran 78:33:

Quote:

Quran 78:33:
Sahih International
And full-breasted [companions] of equal age
Yusuf Ali
And voluptuous women of equal age;

Islam the holy book of Muslims says that Muslim men will get large breasted virgins in Heaven.

Is this the prophet you idolize and the god you worship?

Allah created Islam as a test to see who would be wise enough to leave it. Like many others you will not leave Islam and will fail that test and will burn in Allah's Hell for eternity for refusing to leave Islam.

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« Last Edit: Nov 24^th, 2013 at 4:45am by Xaseui »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #52 - Nov 24^th, 2013 at 9:08am

Xaseui wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 11:29pm:

Is that your best argument, Muslim? Thats like saying: "show me a single Muslim who thinks Islam is false".

Look at what I was responding to:

Quote:

Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent.

It was to point out that I don't believe any muslim would believe she was prepubescent at time of consummation.

Xaseui wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 11:29pm:

But your invalid requirement is met here:
Quote:
In summary, Dr Muhsin Khan in the official text published in the Islamic University; Al-Medina Al-Munauwara, Saudi Arabia, says in two related ahadith that Aisha had not reached puberty when she was 15 years old

see the same link posted before: wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha_and_Puberty

More flawed logic. There is dispute amongst scholars about the age of Aisha when she was married, thats what wiki-islam fails to take into account. When Mushin Khan claims she had not reached puberty at that point, in order to prove your argument, you need to demonstrate that Mushin Khan also believed the marriage had already been consummated. Wiki-islam makes the completely baseless assumption that Mushin Khan accepts the age that Aisha claims she was when she was married. He merely narrates what Aisha claimed, but there is no evidence that he actually accepts her claim.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Xaseui

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #53 - Nov 24^th, 2013 at 9:47am

Gandalf Quote:

Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent.

As I said obviously it doesnt matter what Muslims think of an issue. We're looking at what is true historically.
Many muslims seem to think Muhammad was a prophet, so what they think is not important when we're trying to find out what is true about Islam or what really happened for a certain issue.
The approach should be to look at what sources say and as I explained above we DO know she was very young (6 when engaged, 9 when married).
As for whether she had reached puberty at age 9, that is for YOU to prove. Remember Wikipedia's definition of pedophilia.
Usually girls do NOT reach puberty at that age.
Usually spiders do not lay eggs inside human ears so if you're claiming this happened for a certain incident (that Aisha had reached puberty at age 9, or when Muhammad first had sex with her), its YOUR job to prove it. We're not the ones who have to prove it didnt happen.

Quote:

It was to point out that I don't believe any muslim would believe she was prepubescent at time of consummation.

Yes, again its irrelevant as to what Muslims believe about Aisha.
Muslims have varying beliefs about it. Some thing she was 9. Some think whatever her age was, Pedo Muhammad didnt have sex with her until later and that he waited.

Most likely no Muslim would every admit "Muhammad had sex with someone who hadnt reached puberty", because that would be saying something like "Muhammad willfully raped someone".

On the other hand Quran 65:4 says a child can be married to even if they havent reached puberty (google quran pedophilia and click the first link - all the sourced are mentioned):
Quote:

Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.
Commentary on Qur'an Chapter 65:4
Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi, Tafhim al-Qur'an

So thats your Islamic scholar saying that you have no right to forbid what the Quran has allowed. If Muhammad did have sex with a pre-puberty girl and you are here to defend it because you want those large breasted women promised to you in Quran 78:33 by this terrorist Pedophile, then you are no one say this is not allowed in Islam, or never happened.
There are 500 other Tafsirs listed on that.
Here's another: Quote:

The Noble Qur'an has also mentioned the waiting period [i.e. for a divorced wife to remarry] for the wife who has not yet menstruated, saying: "And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated" [Qur'an 65:4]. Since this is not negated later, we can take from this verse that it is permissible to have sexual intercourse with a prepubescent girl. The Qur'an is not like the books of jurisprudence which mention what the implications of things are, even if they are prohibited. It is true that the prophet (PBUH) entered into a marriage contract with A'isha when she was six years old, however he did not have sex with her until she was nine years old, according to al-Bukhari.
Is it permissible to restrict the age at which girls can marry?
Submitted by Ahmad, IslamOnline, December 24, 2010

So go ahead and prove that 9 year old Aisha had reached puberty.

Quote:

There is dispute amongst scholars about the age of Aisha when she was married, thats what wiki-islam fails to take into account.

For your requirement of "show any Muslim who thinks Aisha had reached puberty when she first had sex", it doesnt matter if there's a contradiction between Muslims.
As I said what Muslims believe is irrelevant in the first place and if we did try to meet that requirement, all I need to do is bring ONE Muslim and your requirement is met.

Quote:

When Mushin Khan claims she had not reached puberty at that point, in order to prove your argument, you need to demonstrate that Mushin Khan also believed the marriage had already been consummated.

That is proven by the multiple Sahih hadiths that she was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her (consummated).
Again who the _ cares what Muslims believe about Aisha? Do we know what Mohsin Khan really believes about Aisha, or what he does at 3am every morning? The issue is FACTS, and what really happened and for that we look at Islamic sources.

The doll playing hadiths explicitly say Aisha had not puberty at age 9 (confirming what statistics say about puberty age) and you have no proof whatsoever that she had reached it.

Muhammad's false perverted promise of large breasted virgins (in other words, women with big tits) (Quran 78:33) is what motivates you to defend Islam. Go ahead and try to prove she had reached puberty at age 9. You have no such proof.
Your prophet was a pedophile terrorist.

[Continued in part 2]

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« Last Edit: Nov 24^th, 2013 at 2:01pm by Xaseui »

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Grendel

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #54 - Nov 24^th, 2013 at 1:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:30pm:

Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

really I thought the claim was he was a pedophile?

Just take a quick look at the dead horse Baron is flogging.

Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent.

Show me a single muslim who thinks she was prepubescent - after consummation I mean. There are none.

Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

Well being a fair minded person one would expect you would subject yourself to the same level of proof.

Why? I'm not the one making the claim that the sources "prove" she was prepubescent at time of consummation.

Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

You claim they are wrong... where's your proof?

Thats not how it works. Burden of proof is not on me.

Grendel wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2013 at 8:12pm:

Did you read the 2nd link? it is written by a Muslim.

Of course I did. Its a very good article - and supports everything I've been saying.

Obviously I've been giving you more credit than you deserve gandalf Roll Eyes

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Xaseui New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20 Gender:	Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!! Reply #55 - Nov 24^th, 2013 at 2:03pm gandalf, so again here you are defending 9 year old Aisha's marriage to 54 year old Muhammad. Are you sympathetic towards pedophiles? Do you have such tendencies yourself?
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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #56 - Nov 24^th, 2013 at 3:22pm

Xaseui wrote on Nov 24^th, 2013 at 9:47am:

Gandalf Quote:

Well it seems many muslims think she was indeed very young and quite probably prepubescent.

As I said obviously it doesnt matter what Muslims think of an issue.

Funny, as this is an Islamic forum and is purportedly all about Islam (and it's persecution), I'd have thought what Muslims think was actually rather crucial to the discussion.... Roll Eyes

Quote:

We're looking at what is true historically.

By relying upon what Muslims wrote? Mmmm, so, let me get this right, it doesn't matter what Muslims think but what they wrote, about their thinking on the topic is going to be a lot more true? Right... Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Xaseui

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #57 - Nov 24^th, 2013 at 11:09pm

Brian Ross
According to your signature you're actually a Muslim so why is your name "Brian Ross"? Are you a convert to Islam? If so, what evidence did you accept before believing that Muhammad was really a prophet of God and not a liar when he made that claim?

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 24^th, 2013 at 3:22pm:

Funny, as this is an Islamic forum and is purportedly all about Islam (and it's persecution), I'd have thought what Muslims think was actually rather crucial to the discussion.... Roll Eyes

I'll give you another example. Every Muslim will claim that "there is no compulsion in religion", or its a peaceful religion, or Muhammad never fought offensive wars, Aisha had reached puberty when Muhammad married her and so on.
So while what Muslims think is important to know or talk about, it cant be used to determine what is actually true about Islam.
As you know all of those are things Muslims claim but they are not actually true about Islam.

Quote:

By relying upon what Muslims wrote? Mmmm, so, let me get this right, it doesn't matter what Muslims think but what they wrote, about their thinking on the topic is going to be a lot more true? Right... Roll Eyes

Those people are historians (Bukhari, Ibn Ishaq, Tabari and so on) or otherwise are important authorities in Islam (Islamic scholars or leaders).
The historians recorded all we know about Islam so they are the only sources of what is true about Islam.

So (1 )when a historian records a violent hadith or when multiple historians record that Aisha was 9 when 54 year old Muhammad married her, thats a fact.
As opposed to (2) Muslim apologists in today's age who are going to ignore those hadiths and make excuses and offer their personal opinions about the matter.

Notice the difference between 1 and 2 and obviously they cannot be treated as equals.

But you're a Muslim

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Brian Ross

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #58 - Nov 24^th, 2013 at 11:32pm

Xaseui wrote on Nov 24^th, 2013 at 11:09pm:

Brian Ross
According to your signature you're actually a Muslim so why is your name "Brian Ross"?

Tsk, tsk, such silly assumptions. They reveal far more about your mindset than they do about me. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Are you a convert to Islam? If so, what evidence did you accept before believing that Muhammad was really a prophet of God and not a liar when he made that claim?

More assumptions on your part. Why do you make them when there is no evidence that I am a Muslim or that I believe anything about Mohammed?

All I've done is take you to task for your other assumptions that what Muslims think is unimportant and that everything Muslims wrote about Aisha's age is.

If you weren't a five second blow-in, you'd know all the answers to your questions about me personally. Not that they would make much different to the points I have made.

Quote:

Brian Ross wrote on Nov 24^th, 2013 at 3:22pm:

Funny, as this is an Islamic forum and is purportedly all about Islam (and it's persecution), I'd have thought what Muslims think was actually rather crucial to the discussion.... Roll Eyes

I'll give you another example. Every Muslim will claim that "there is no compulsion in religion", or its a peaceful religion, or Muhammad never fought offensive wars, Aisha had reached puberty when Muhammad married her and so on.
So while what Muslims think is important to know or talk about, it cant be used to determine what is actually true about Islam.
As you know all of those are things Muslims claim but they are not actually true about Islam.

How is this different to any other religious belief? Christians belief the most preposterous things about their religion, Jews theirs', etc., etc. Muslims are no different yet you appear to believe that it is perfectly OK to dismiss their views on any issue about their religion.

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By relying upon what Muslims wrote? Mmmm, so, let me get this right, it doesn't matter what Muslims think but what they wrote, about their thinking on the topic is going to be a lot more true? Right... Roll Eyes

Those people are historians (Bukhari, Ibn Ishaq, Tabari and so on) or otherwise are important authorities in Islam (Islamic scholars or leaders).

And who are the primary sources for the historians? And you admit that you are relying on "Islamic scholars or leaders". Mmmm, so who ordinary everyday Muslims rely upon for their informed viewpoints on their religion? Could it be "Historians" or "Islamic scholars or leaders"? You seem to be going in ever decreasing circles... Roll Eyes

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The historians recorded all we know about Islam so they are the only sources of what is true about Islam.

What a charmingly naive belief in the inherent accuracy of historical records. Obviously there can never be any bias or hatreds involved in the writing of history in your view then? Roll Eyes

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So (1 )when a historian records a violent hadith or when multiple historians record that Aisha was 9 when 54 year old Muhammad married her, thats a fact.

Actually, it isn't. Particularly if their primary sources are all the same. You obviously have no idea how (medieval) historians researched their works. Invariably they relied upon hearsay and often legend. Often, they relied also upon each other and merely repeated the hearsay and legend as "facts". Modern historians OTOH rely as much as possible on written records or archaeological evidence. Guess what happens when there are no written records or archaeological evidence? They usually just end up repeating the same stories which medieval historians repeated.

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As opposed to (2) Muslim apologists in today's age who are going to ignore those hadiths and make excuses and offer their personal opinions about the matter.

You are aware I hope that many Hadith were written post-ipso facto, often hundreds of years after the fact? Their accuracy is very suspect and there are at the moment several large projects examining their authenticity.

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Notice the difference between 1 and 2 and obviously they cannot be treated as equals.

Notice that both 1 and 2 are neither particularly accurate?

It's like relying on the Torah or the Old Testament as an accurate record of early Judaism or the New Testament as an accurate record of Imperial Rome. Roll Eyes

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But you're a Muslim

So quick to judge, so quick to discard the opinion of anyone you believe might be a Muslim.

You will of course be able to prove that assertion? You will also, of course be able to supply us with that proof? And of course, you'll be able to explain why you are acting in such a bigoted manner towards Muslims?

I look forward to seeing it. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Xaseui

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Re: Evidence gone missing - PLEASE HELP!!
Reply #59 - Nov 25^th, 2013 at 1:11am

Brian Ross Quote:

How is this different to any other religious belief? Christians belief the most preposterous things about their religion, Jews theirs', etc., etc. Muslims are no different yet you appear to believe that it is perfectly OK to dismiss their views on any issue about their religion. Roll Eyes

Two wrongs dont make a right. You're assuming I'm a Christian.
You started your post talking about assumptions and look at yourself.

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And who are the primary sources for the historians? And you admit that you are relying on "Islamic scholars or leaders". Mmmm, so who ordinary everyday Muslims rely upon for their informed viewpoints on their religion? Could it be "Historians" or "Islamic scholars or leaders"? You seem to be going in ever decreasing circles... Roll Eyes

So basically your logic is that is person A says "Bukhari and Muslim reported in multiple Sahih hadiths that Aisha was 9 when married to 54 year old prophet",
person B can reply saying "But two terrorists in Afghanistan said she was 20 years old when she married Muhammad".

And you're going to accept the arguments of person B, because all the sources are Muslims? You think person B made a valid response?

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What a charmingly naive belief in the inherent accuracy of historical records. Obviously there can never be any bias or hatreds involved in the writing of history in your view then? Roll Eyes

You are a MUSLIM so you're trying to think up of all excuses. Get your Islamic scholars to reject the hadiths and before then, you have no religious authority to doubt the authority of Hadiths.

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Actually, it isn't. Particularly if their primary sources are all the same. You obviously have no idea how (medieval) historians researched their works. Invariably they relied upon hearsay and often legend. Often, they relied also upon each other and merely repeated the hearsay and legend as "facts". Modern historians OTOH rely as much as possible on written records or archaeological evidence. Guess what happens when there are no written records or archaeological evidence? They usually just end up repeating the same stories which medieval historians repeated.

BS that is not relevant for this discussion.
You have to prove that Bukhari and Muslim are unreliable. That is relevant for the discussion. Go ahead.

Why are you so afraid of saying whether you're a Muslim or not? Are you embarrassed of being a Muslim?

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