Australian Politics Forum - Pew survey of Muslims' opinions

freediver

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #30 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:43pm

Quote:

No, what you are saying is stupid. suggesting that someone who has lived in the country, speaks their language and is conversant with their cultural practises does not have insight is a stupid statement.

If you never asked them what their opinion is, you have no insight into what their opinion is. The Pew survey asked them what their opinion is. Pretty basic stuff I know, but it trumps you being their and talking to them about everything but their opinion on these matters. You are no better than Brian in claiming you have more insight than an organisation that actually asks people what they think.

Quote:

You are projecting because you have just been made to look ignorant, but you did that yourself by discussing a subject you have limited knowledge of.

I am not projecting. I am presenting you with the facts. Muslims were asked what their opinion is. This is what they said. It is obviously you who is projecting. This is about as transparent as it gets.

Quote:

Its common for those with an agenda to do this, you are naïve, m not.

What agenda does Pew have? Why did you suggest the questions were loaded if you have no clue at all? Projecting perhaps?

Quote:

OK, show I case of head chopping for apostasy or stoning for adultery.

English Ian. Do you speak it? This was an opinion survey. It reveals what people think, not what they do. How many times do I have to spell it out for you before it sinks in? Muslims are quite open about the concept of obeying the law of the land even when they think it should be different. They only go silent when asked how they ought to achieve that change.

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Yadda

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #31 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:46pm

Yadda wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:31pm:

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:05pm:

.....sharia law is already in practise in Indonesia and

there is not 1 case that I am aware of where someone has been executed

for apostasy or stoned to death for adulter

despite 2 million converts to Christianity a year.

are you aware of any cases?

Allah's enemies, have not been executed by moslems, in Indonesia ?

It doesn't happen, in Indonesia ?

Beheadings don't in Indonesia ?

A particularly gruesome incident occured, just a few years ago.

2005, Indonesia, beheadings of Christian school girls.

Google;
Indonesia Frees Muslim Terrorist Who Beheaded 3 Christian Girls

There are some particularly gruesome photos, of one of these beheaded girls in the morgue, easy to find - but not appropriate to post here.

Google;
indonesia Attacks on religious minorities remain largely unchallenged

ian,

I am not suggesting that such executions and attacks are sanctioned [or even 'acknowledged' as happening] by the civil authorities who rule in Indonesia.

But these violent incidents do occur regularly.

i.e.
Violent and murderous 'religious' attacks, by moslems, upon religious minorities in Indonesia.

i.e.
Two forms of political rule can be observed to occur within Indonesia.

1/ Political control and political authority which is sanctioned by the civil authorities.

2/ Local control by 'political' religious terror, which while it is not sanctioned by the civil authorities - it does occur.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #32 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:47pm Well I'm glad I started a new thread on this. Who'd have thought that understanding what an opinion poll is would be so difficult for some?
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Lord Herbert

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #33 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 5:19am

The apologists have become increasingly absurd in their desperate attempts to exonerate Muslims from Islamic accountability for their uncivilised opinions.

It's particularly ugly when we witness this in people who are otherwise intelligent and educated.

Endless spin to distract from the facts becomes habitual to their every response to the exposure of Islam and Muslims' medieval perspectives on morality and punishment.

********

You have to question the sanity of political parties who still support Muslim immigration ... and the sanity of non-Muslims in the electorate who continue to vote for them.

A full 30% of British Muslims surveyed were sympathetic to suicide bombings.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #34 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 7:21am

Freediver post moved from another thread:

Quote:

here is Gandalf making excuses for his fellow Muslims, and insisting they couldn't possible mean what they actually say.

[quote author=gandalf link=1387754522/11#11 date=1387769087]
I suspect because the responders are completely detached from their own personal reality when answering such questions. Asking "should adulterers be stoned" to a person who has never known the practice, and who is acutely aware that the practice will never be implemented in his society is obviously completely different to dragging an actual adulterer up to the same person and asking them to condemn them to death via stoning.

Ian followed it up with this:

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:27pm:

Yes, I agree, also suspect these surveys offer "loaded" questions. I wouldn't mind seeing the format and context of the questions.

Abu Hurairah narrates that the Prophet said: “One who keeps the faults of a Muslim secret in this world, Allah will keep his faults in the Hereafter

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« Last Edit: Dec 24^th, 2013 at 8:29am by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #35 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 7:54am You don't think that belongs in the spineless apologetics thread?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #36 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 8:31am freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 7:54am: You don't think that belongs in the spineless apologetics thread? You quoted from this thread - and there is no reason why it shouldn't stay in this thread. I moved the part you quoted from the other thread back.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #37 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:24am

It sounds like ian is a frequent visitor to Indonesia.

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:58pm:

I don't rely soley on SBS docos for my information although I have had cameo roles in a couple. Of course there is extremist violence in Aceh, they have been fighting what effectively amounts to a civil war for decades although I believe there has been some progress towards autonomy for the Acehnese lately. The Indonesian governement treats these "freedom fighters" as terrorists. Not sure what your point is in mentioning this though.

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:12pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:01pm:

Ian, have you ever asked a Muslim their opinion on these matters? You do realise that it was a survey of Muslims' opinions (not actions) don't you?

In all honesty I have never thought to. I have never heard any thoughts about stoning to death or head chopping mentioned in general conversation, I am pretty sure that if this was such a serious issue for these people they would be discussing it. You are confusing religion with culture, Muslim Indonesians do not hold the same cultural practises as middle eastern Muslims.

ian,

Are you saying that you suspect that a moslem in Indonesia, does not hold the same religious views as a moslem from the middle east ?

Hmmmm.

In contrast, i've come to believe that all moslems [i.e. every person who refers to himself as a 'moslem'] considered themselves to be one people, one ummah.

And all with common aims and devotions.

"Muslims are one ummah (community)

to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."
Ishaq:231

GETTING BACK TO INDONESIA, ian;

This Christmas season in Indonesia;

Quote:

Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying
"Jesus is a dog,"
"Kill the Christians"

IMAGE SOURCE;
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/interfaith-outreach-in-indonesia-new-rash-of-c...

Indonesia is a large and expansive country.

I'm sure ian, didn't come across those moslems on his visits there.

Right ian ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #38 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:30am Ian would have discussed the weather with them and wondered why they were carrying a placard written in English that they obviously don't understand.
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wally1

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #39 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:09am

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

It sounds like ian is a frequent visitor to Indonesia.

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:58pm:

I don't rely soley on SBS docos for my information although I have had cameo roles in a couple. Of course there is extremist violence in Aceh, they have been fighting what effectively amounts to a civil war for decades although I believe there has been some progress towards autonomy for the Acehnese lately. The Indonesian governement treats these "freedom fighters" as terrorists. Not sure what your point is in mentioning this though.

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:12pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:01pm:

Ian, have you ever asked a Muslim their opinion on these matters? You do realise that it was a survey of Muslims' opinions (not actions) don't you?

In all honesty I have never thought to. I have never heard any thoughts about stoning to death or head chopping mentioned in general conversation, I am pretty sure that if this was such a serious issue for these people they would be discussing it. You are confusing religion with culture, Muslim Indonesians do not hold the same cultural practises as middle eastern Muslims.

ian,

Are you saying that you suspect that a moslem in Indonesia, does not hold the same religious views as a moslem from the middle east ?

Hmmmm.

In contrast, i've come to believe that all moslems [i.e. every person who refers to himself as a 'moslem'] considered themselves to be one people, one ummah.

And all with common aims and devotions.

"Muslims are one ummah (community)

to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."
Ishaq:231

GETTING BACK TO INDONESIA, ian;

This Christmas season in Indonesia;

Quote:

Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying
"Jesus is a dog,"
"Kill the Christians"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/images/INDONESIA_%28F%29_0427_-_Pastore_ucciso.jpg

IMAGE SOURCE;
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/interfaith-outreach-in-indonesia-new-rash-of-c...

Indonesia is a large and expansive country.

I'm sure ian, didn't come across those moslems on his visits there.

Right ian ?

Muslims believe in Jesus.hard to believe they would call him a dog.

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Yadda

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #40 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:39am

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

GETTING BACK TO INDONESIA, ian;

This Christmas season in Indonesia;

Quote:

Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying

"Jesus is a dog,"

"Kill the Christians"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/images/INDONESIA_%28F%29_0427_-_Pastore_ucciso.jpg

IMAGE SOURCE;
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/interfaith-outreach-in-indonesia-new-rash-of-c...

Indonesia is a large and expansive country.

I'm sure ian, didn't come across those moslems on his visits there.

Right ian ?

Muslims believe in Jesus.hard to believe they would call him a dog.

Ah but wally, you are 'conveniently' forgetting about the duality [of 'being'] which ISLAM 'broadcasts', into this world.

e.g.
1/ There is the world, according to everyone else.

2/ And then, there is the world, according to moslems/ISLAM.

It is only the Christian Jesus, the Jesus of the New Testament, who is a dog.

For moslems, there is another Jesus,

the Jesus of the Koran, the 'moslem Jesus'.

And it is the 'moslem Jesus', who is the one who is revered by moslems.

And [according to ISLAMIC doctrine], the 'moslem Jesus' will return at the end of the world, to slaughter all of the Christians, for not being moslems.

LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN;
According to ISLAMIC doctrine, the 'moslem Jesus' will return at the end of the world, to slaughter all of the Christians.

I am not kidding.

And THAT, is the 'Jesus', who is revered by ISLAM, and moslems.

The 'Jesus' who is the ISLAMIC Jihadist.

......who on his return, is going to slaughter all Christians, because they are not moslems.

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« Last Edit: Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:47am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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wally1

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #41 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:05am

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:39am:

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

GETTING BACK TO INDONESIA, ian;

This Christmas season in Indonesia;

Quote:

Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying

"Jesus is a dog,"

"Kill the Christians"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/images/INDONESIA_%28F%29_0427_-_Pastore_ucciso.jpg

IMAGE SOURCE;
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/interfaith-outreach-in-indonesia-new-rash-of-c...

Indonesia is a large and expansive country.

I'm sure ian, didn't come across those moslems on his visits there.

Right ian ?

Muslims believe in Jesus.hard to believe they would call him a dog.

Ah but wally, you are 'conveniently' forgetting about the duality [of 'being'] which ISLAM 'broadcasts', into this world.

e.g.
1/ There is the world, according to everyone else.

2/ And then, there is the world, according to moslems/ISLAM.

It is only the Christian Jesus, the Jesus of the New Testament, who is a dog.

For moslems, there is another Jesus,

the Jesus of the Koran, the 'moslem Jesus'.

And it is the 'moslem Jesus', who is the one who is revered by moslems.

And [according to ISLAMIC doctrine], the 'moslem Jesus' will return at the end of the world, to slaughter all of the Christians, for not being moslems.

LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN;
According to ISLAMIC doctrine, the 'moslem Jesus' will return at the end of the world, to slaughter all of the Christians.

I am not kidding.

And THAT, is the 'Jesus', who is revered by ISLAM, and moslems.

The 'Jesus' who is the ISLAMIC Jihadist.

......who on his return, is going to slaughter all Christians, because they are not moslems.

well that's your view.

There is no muslim jesus or Christian jesus.They are the same person but both religions think differently of him.

In islam, jesus is a prophet.
In christinaity, you don't know who he is.One day he a prophet, one day he is the son, one day he is God.

There is only one jesus, just the beleifs about him vary between the religions.

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Sparky Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1338 Gender:	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #42 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:09am All Christians know that Jesus is the son of god wally.
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wally1

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #43 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:16am

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:39am:

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

GETTING BACK TO INDONESIA, ian;

This Christmas season in Indonesia;

Quote:

Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying

"Jesus is a dog,"

"Kill the Christians"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/images/INDONESIA_%28F%29_0427_-_Pastore_ucciso.jpg

IMAGE SOURCE;
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/interfaith-outreach-in-indonesia-new-rash-of-c...

Indonesia is a large and expansive country.

I'm sure ian, didn't come across those moslems on his visits there.

Right ian ?

Muslims believe in Jesus.hard to believe they would call him a dog.

Ah but wally, you are 'conveniently' forgetting about the duality [of 'being'] which ISLAM 'broadcasts', into this world.

e.g.
1/ There is the world, according to everyone else.

2/ And then, there is the world, according to moslems/ISLAM.

It is only the Christian Jesus, the Jesus of the New Testament, who is a dog.

For moslems, there is another Jesus,

the Jesus of the Koran, the 'moslem Jesus'.

And it is the 'moslem Jesus', who is the one who is revered by moslems.

And [according to ISLAMIC doctrine], the 'moslem Jesus' will return at the end of the world, to slaughter all of the Christians, for not being moslems.

LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN;
According to ISLAMIC doctrine, the 'moslem Jesus' will return at the end of the world, to slaughter all of the Christians.

I am not kidding.

And THAT, is the 'Jesus', who is revered by ISLAM, and moslems.

The 'Jesus' who is the ISLAMIC Jihadist.

......who on his return, is going to slaughter all Christians, because they are not moslems.

Again whats your point?

Yes jesus will come back with a sword and make war and fight.

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

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ian

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #44 - Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:19am

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:43pm:

[quote]
If you never asked them what their opinion is, you have no insight into what their opinion is. The Pew survey asked them what their opinion is. Pretty basic stuff I know, but it trumps you being their and talking to them about everything but their opinion on these matters. You are no better than Brian in claiming you have more insight than an organisation that actually asks people what they think.

Based on this you would have no insight into what australians think even though you live in this country. You have talked yourself into a blind alley on this one I am afraid.

Quote:

I am not projecting. I am presenting you with the facts. Muslims were asked what their opinion is. This is what they said. It is obviously you who is projecting. This is about as transparent as it gets.

.

You don't know any facts, all you know is the results of "surveys" you found on the internet. You know nothing about the people quizzed, how they were quizzed, the legitimacy of the survey or anything at all.

Quote:

What agenda does Pew have? Why did you suggest the questions were loaded if you have no clue at all? Projecting perhaps?

I don't know, but neither do you.

Quote:

English Ian. Do you speak it? This was an opinion survey. It reveals what people think, not what they do. How many times do I have to spell it out for you before it sinks in? Muslims are quite open about the concept of obeying the law of the land even when they think it should be different. They only go silent when asked how they ought to achieve that change.

Your credibility on what these cultures think is zero.

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