Australian Politics Forum - Pew survey of Muslims' opinions

Pete Waldo

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #60 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 11:19pm

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Sparky wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:09am:

All Christians know that Jesus is the son of god wally.

Its pretty strange that the son of God is only on the second level of paradise.

THE false prophet Muhammad's filthy Satan-inspired blasphemy against the Messiah was even worse than you indicate:

Bukhari:V4B55N607 "Allah’s Apostle said, 'On the night of my Ascension to Heaven, I saw Moses who was a thin person, looking like one of the men of the tribe of Shanua; and I saw Jesus with a red face as if he had just come out of a bathroom.

Just as prophesied of THE false prophet Muhammad and his Islamic kingdom "beast" against the one great God of the Scriptures Yahweh:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Just as prophesied, and as perfectly manifest in your post. Indeed Islam IS blasphemy.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm#islamic_blasphemy_in_prop...

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Prophet Abraham and moses are on higher levels in paradise.

So much for being the son of god, jesus is lower than Abraham and moses.

Yet the ONLY reason you believe that, is because you believe Muhammad's completely unwitnessed preposterous tale, in which he claimed that he rode on a flying donkey-mule one night, from Mecca, to Jerusalem, up the the "paradise" of his overactive imagination, and back to Mecca by morning.
http://www.brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

He even lied about praying in the temple of the prophets, that the historical record informs us had been torn down torn down over 500 years before Muhammad told his ridiculous and transparent lie, about tying his flying donkey-mule up to the "ring" the prophets had used and going into the temple and praying in it.

Let alone there may even be indications that the reason he created the preposterous story of his magic flying donkey-mule in the first place, was an effort to cover an adulterous affair he had been caught in.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AbulKasem51209p4.htm

Shortly after relating that silly fantasy - many of Muhammad's even illiterate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwellers, found the good sense to abandon Muhammad's anti-religion - so what's up with Muhammad's followers in this 21st century information age?
Shortly after the debacle of telling his tall tale, Muhammad left Mecca and skulked off to Medina.

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Shouldn't he be on the highest level of paradise?

While you spew Muhammad's blasphemy against the Messiah - that is, THE anointed ONE - what do the scriptures of the ONE true God indicate His place is in the ONLY heaven?

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Yet there you are, prostrating yourself toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day, while praying in the "vain repetitions as the heathen do", in the names of the Quraish pagan's deity "Allah" and his "mesenger" Muhammad. That is praying in the name of Muhammad's, Muhammad-serving, terrorist, alter-ego, "Allah".

And why do you pray five times a day in vain repetitions? Because you believe Muhammad's tall tale about riding on a flying donkey-mule to "paradise" where he claimed to have gotten the number.
However it is no coincidence that the historical record informs us that Sabian moon god worshipers prayed five times a day, practiced ablution, prostrated in prayer, wore long white robes, and also fasted by day during the same month of Ramadan that Muhammad adopted.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/origin_of_ramadan.htm

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« Last Edit: Jan 15^th, 2014 at 12:33am by Pete Waldo »

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Pete Waldo

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #61 - Jan 17^th, 2014 at 9:03pm

"Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari" - Maktba Dar-us-Salam's page 580
Chapter 2. The best among the people is that believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with both his life and property.
footnotes:
[1] "Al-Jihad (the holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of number and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior, [His Word being La ilaha ill-Allah (which means: none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)] and His Religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; there honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a
hypocrite
.
[2] Of course, nobody can offer Salat (prayer) and observe Saum (fast) incessantly, and since the Muslim fighter is rewarded as if he was doing such good impossible deeds, no possible deed equals Jihad in reward.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrite...

Thus, just as other non-Aryans (and other groups like academics) were only a little further down Hitler's list than Jews, so too are western peacenick "hypocrite" Muslims like some in this forum, just a little further down the list for conquest and subjugation
by true Muslims that GET Islam
, than we non-Muslims.

A very comprehensive list of Muslim opinion polls is logged at this link:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

"Muslim Opinion Polls

A "Tiny Minority of Extremists"?

"Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is their destination."
Quran 9:73

Have you heard that Islam is a peaceful religion because most Muslims live peacefully and that only a "tiny minority of extremists" practice violence? That's like saying that White supremacy must be perfectly fine since only a tiny minority of racists ever hurt anyone. Neither does it explain why religious violence is largely endemic to Islam, despite the tremendous persecution of religious minorities in Muslim countries.

In truth, even a tiny minority of "1%" of Muslims worldwide translates to 15 million believers - which is hardly an insignificant number. However, the "minority" of Muslims who approve of terrorists, their goals, or their means of achieving them is much greater than this. In fact, it isn't even a true minority in some cases, depending on how goals and targets are defined.

The following polls convey what Muslims say are their attitudes toward terrorism, al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, the 9/11 attacks, violence in defense of Islam, Sharia, honor killings, and matters concerning assimilation in Western society. The results are all the more astonishing because most of the polls were conducted by organizations with an obvious interest in "discovering" agreeable statistics that downplay any cause for concern.

(These have been compiled over the years, so not all links remain active. We will continue adding to this)."
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

Gandalf, do you understand what the numbers in these polls indicate, regarding the future that you are consigning yourself and your heirs to
, let alone the rest of humanity?
How can there be any question that the most evil and reprobate group of
Muslims most committed to violence, would by the ultimate arbiters of Muhammad's anti-religion?

Gandalf, what is the difference between peacenick "hypocrites" in Islam, and that of non-Aryan Nazi sympathizers, that were vainly hoping against hope that Jews would be Hitler's only target, even though they could see with their own eyes that they weren't (when Hitler grabbed others like academics, musicians and dissidents against the genocide of Jews)?

I personally know a Polish violinist (Gentile) whose fingers were cut off and was put in a concentration camp.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

And Hitler didn't even hate Music, like Muhammad did, and his true followers in the Taliban and other groups today.
https://www.google.com/#q=muhammad+hated+music

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« Last Edit: Jan 17^th, 2014 at 9:48pm by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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freediver

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #62 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:22am

Looks like gandalf is still having trouble accepting the reality that was revealed by this survey:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:08am:

I assumed nothing. Clearly its not getting through is it?

So I was imagining these posts?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:11am:

What you refuse to contemplate is that in both cases, we are talking about an abstract principle, that is as far away from the reality of the individual's day-to-day life as can be: Malaysians don't, and never will, have the opportunity to partake in a stoning and witness the full horrors of what happens, and nor will an average American ever partake in a drone strike in which they must witness women and children getting killed, maimed and/or psychologically traumatised for the rest of their lives.

Quote:

Like I said, to them stoning is just an abstract principle that is as far away from their reality as you can get. Ask them an inconsequential question about a principle that they know they will never see in real life, they'll answer 'yes' - but actually put a stone in their hands and say "beat that adulterer to death", and they will undoubtedly reel in horror.

Quote:

When it never has and never will happen in the society they live in - of course it is. Should I expect a new thread to be started about this

Quote:

I suspect because the responders are completely detached from their own personal reality when answering such questions. Asking "should adulterers be stoned" to a person who has never known the practice, and who is acutely aware that the practice will never be implemented in his society is obviously completely different to dragging an actual adulterer up to the same person and asking them to condemn them to death via stoning.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:08am:

PAS state legislators in Terrenganu and Kelantan passed the laws by stealth 20 years ago, knowing full well that the federal would never allow it to be implemented.

Two states? I did not know that. Can you explain how a party that openly supports these punishments, in a state where the majority of Muslims support the policy, had to "trick" people into getting these laws through?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:08am:

Until someone is actually executed for apostasy (which will be never)

So long as the non-Muslims continue to hold a democratic balance of power. Remember, this is not a disagreement over whether they will succeed, but whether they actually support what they say they support.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:08am:

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:42pm:

In reality, the majority of Muslims support it and will vote for it if given the chance. In reality, it is the non-Muslim balance of power that prevents this from happening, rather than your ludicrous suggestion that it is lack of willpower or intent on behalf of the majority of Muslims who support it.

Pure conjecture. That is the reality you need to acknowledge

Is it conjecture to claim that Muslims actually support what they say they support? A survey showing what they actually think is not good enough now? I have to prove that they really mean what they say, while you backpedal and refuse to hold an opinion on anything?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #63 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:06am freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:22am: Is it conjecture to claim that Muslims actually support what they say they support? now FD surely even your reading comprehension isn't that bad. Is it??
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freediver

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #64 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:48am

So which bit do you think is conjecture?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:08am:

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:42pm:

In reality, the majority of Muslims support it and will vote for it if given the chance. In reality, it is the non-Muslim balance of power that prevents this from happening, rather than your ludicrous suggestion that it is lack of willpower or intent on behalf of the majority of Muslims who support it.

Pure conjecture. That is the reality you need to acknowledge

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #65 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:55am Gee I don't know FD - maybe the part I quoted: "the majority of Muslims support it and will vote for it if given the chance. In reality, it is the non-Muslim balance of power that prevents this from happening
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #66 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:47pm Is it conjecture that Muslims will vote for what they say they want, if given the chance? Am I missing something here?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #67 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 3:02pm freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:47pm: Is it conjecture that Muslims will vote for what they say they want, if given the chance? Am I missing something here? Clearly you are.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #68 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:11pm So it is not conjecture for you to insist that they would reject what they claim to support, if given the opportunity, but it is conjecture to insist that they mean what they actually say, and I must somehow prove that they actually mean it?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #69 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:25pm

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:11pm:

So it is not conjecture for you to insist that they would reject what they claim to support

No, that would absolutely be conjecture. Thats why I never said any such thing.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:11pm:

but it is conjecture to insist that they mean what they actually say, and I must somehow prove that they actually mean it?

It is conjecture to say responses to a random and hypothetical survey would definitely accurately predict an actual vote on the issue. It is also conjecture to state dogmatically that the only reason Malaysia doesn't have execution for apostasy is due to the non-muslim balance of power.

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #70 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:25pm

From the first page of this thread:

Quote:

What you refuse to contemplate is that in both cases, we are talking about an abstract principle, that is as far away from the reality of the individual's day-to-day life as can be: Malaysians don't, and never will, have the opportunity to partake in a stoning and witness the full horrors of what happens, and nor will an average American ever partake in a drone strike in which they must witness women and children getting killed, maimed and/or psychologically traumatised for the rest of their lives.

Quote:

Like I said, to them stoning is just an abstract principle that is as far away from their reality as you can get. Ask them an inconsequential question about a principle that they know they will never see in real life, they'll answer 'yes' - but actually put a stone in their hands and say "beat that adulterer to death", and they will undoubtedly reel in horror.

Quote:

I suspect because the responders are completely detached from their own personal reality when answering such questions. Asking "should adulterers be stoned" to a person who has never known the practice, and who is acutely aware that the practice will never be implemented in his society is obviously completely different to dragging an actual adulterer up to the same person and asking them to condemn them to death via stoning.

From the previous thread: - more of Gandalf "not insisting" that these Muslims would change their mind and reject what they claimed to support:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 7:52am:

here is Gandalf making excuses for his fellow Muslims

Its not about apologising or excusing, its about coming up with an explanation for why their stated beliefs about this punishment is at odds with their demonstrated behaviour. Why doesn't Malaysia (a democracy) have stoning in their penal code if most muslims love it so much? Why isn't it even so much as discussed? Why do Malays simply don't care about the issue until asked to make a 'yes' or 'no' response to a completely detached and hypothetical survey?

Quote:

If you knew anything about Malaysia you would know that there are separate islamic laws that apply only to Malays. The point is though, if muslims were that passionate about introducing stoning, there would be at the very least some serious public debate about it. There is none. And like most things of this nature, once a public debate starts, public support for it will undoubtedly wane.

Quote:

Of course it is less abstract - because it is being presented as an actual policy to be voted on. Are you seriously suggesting there would be no difference to a pollster asking an Australian tomorrow about their support for capital punishment, and asking Australians to vote in a referendum whether or not to bring it back after a year of public debate?

Quote:

People can act all principled on an issue they know only from stories, and know will never have any chance of becoming implemented in their society. But like all these things, if and when a serious debate actually arises, and the issue changes from abstract to "actual possibility", public opinion will change dramatically.

Quote:

No, I'm saying its very easy to be high and mighty about something they have never experienced and knowing for a fact it will never be implemented in their society. Put a stone in their hand, or ask them to condemn an actual adulterer, and it will doubtless be a completely different story.

Quote:

No, thats not what I'm talking about at all. "putting a stone in their hand" is just a figure of speech. Its about telling people that, with their support, this *CAN* actually happen

I also found this little gem - Gandalf attempting to use a state that has actually passed the execution for apostasy laws as evidence that it will never happen:

Quote:

By the way - there is only one islamist controlled state - Kelantan. But definitely no stoning or executing apostates going on there

And here is Gandalf pretending not to understand that the majority of Muslims who support hte laws make up less than 1/3 of the population, which in a democracy is all the explanation that is needed for why these laws are not passed. Gandalf felt the need to dream up some other excuse - hence all the BS about Muslims not thinking what they say they think.

Quote:

By the way, your throw-away line about democracy that you want to pass as an adequate "explanation" only makes sense for apostasy laws, not for stoning for adultery laws. So if you wouldn't mind getting off your high horse for once and come up with another lame-arsed "explanation" for why stoning isn't even close to being on the books, that would be appreciated.

And here is Gandalf in yet another thread pretending it was a trick question by the Pew society:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:39pm:

Did I say it was spin? I even gave you the exact question that was used. I'm merely pointing out that attitudes can change markedly by changing a few words in the question. This is just basic surveys-101. Thus I don't call people barbaric, or "little Hitler's" if they offer ill-considered support for certain barbaric practices - whether it be stoning or drone strikes.

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« Last Edit: Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:47pm by freediver »

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Pete Waldo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 503 U.S. Gender:	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #71 - Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:24pm And more of gandalf ignoring posts that point out that he is a hypocrite according to his brethren, and just what kind of a future he is necessarily consigning his heirs to: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1387754522/61#61
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #72 - Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:04am

Did you have to attend remedial English comprehension classes at school FD? Cause this is just really really sad.

As for those quotes of mine...

Quote:

What you refuse to contemplate is that in both cases, we are talking about an abstract principle, that is as far away from the reality of the individual's day-to-day life as can be: Malaysians don't, and never will, have the opportunity to partake in a stoning and witness the full horrors of what happens

Nothing even remotely close to "insisting" what Malays will think. This is me insisting that an "abstract principle" is a country mile away from partaking in an actual execution.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:25pm:

actually put a stone in their hands and say "beat that adulterer to death", and they will undoubtedly reel in horror.

Even you agreed with this. It is a no-brainer, and not what we were talking about.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:25pm:

Asking "should adulterers be stoned" to a person who has never known the practice, and who is acutely aware that the practice will never be implemented in his society is obviously completely different to dragging an actual adulterer up to the same person and asking them to condemn them to death via stoning.

Saying the two situations are "completely different" is not "insisting" that Malays will definitely think one way or another. Basic English FD.

Quote:

Its not about apologising or excusing, its about coming up with an explanation for why their stated beliefs about this punishment is at odds with their demonstrated behaviour.

Asking why demonstrated behaviour is at odds with their stated beliefs is not insisting that they don't believe what they say.

Quote:

The point is though, if muslims were that passionate about introducing stoning, there would be at the very least some serious public debate about it.

gee whiz FD, do you think its possible to support something but not be "that passionate" about it? Once again, this is not even close to insisting they don't believe what they say.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:25pm:

People can act all principled on an issue they know only from stories, and know will never have any chance of becoming implemented in their society.

Key word "can" - as in " it can happen", "its possible", "its a plausible scenario" - ie not "I insist that it definitely *WILL* happen". Used, if it really needs to be spelled out to you, to refute your "insistant" conjecture that there absolutely, definitely was only one possibility.

Quote:

No, I'm saying its very easy to be high and mighty about something they have never experienced and knowing for a fact it will never be implemented in their society. Put a stone in their hand, or ask them to condemn an actual adulterer, and it will doubtless be a completely different story.

Oh look, there I am again pointing out the obvious fact that the two situations are vastly different. Again, nothing about insisting don't believe what they say.

Quote:

No, thats not what I'm talking about at all. "putting a stone in their hand" is just a figure of speech. Its about telling people that, with their support, this *CAN* actually happen

Describing a situation. Who'd have thought that this is really "insisting" what people think?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #73 - Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:18am

Impressive backpedaling, but you seem to have left the key bits out Gandalf. Can you explain how these are not examples of you insisting that they would change their minds?

Quote:

public opinion will change dramatically

Quote:

or ask them to condemn an actual adulterer, and it will doubtless be a completely different story.

Why were you so desperate to find an "alternative" explanation for why Malaysia doesn't have these laws?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #74 - Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:34pm

Quote:

But like all these things, if and when a serious debate actually arises, and the issue changes from abstract to "actual possibility", public opinion will change dramatically.

Firstly, it hasn't escaped my attention that you have subtly moved the goalposts by changing the original claim that I "insist" that people don't really mean what they say they mean (ie asserting that they are lying), to to insisting that they would reject what they claim to support.

Presumably it has finally sunken through that there is a difference between lying about what you are saying, and having a genuine change of opinion.

As to your new claim that I "insist they would reject what they claim to support" - it sounds a lot less ridiculous than the original version, I grant you that, but it is no less false. If they genuinely change their mind between the time of the survey and the time of an actual referendum on the issue, then it is not rejecting what they claim to support is it? They just have two different positions at two different points in time.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:18am:

Why were you so desperate to find an "alternative" explanation for why Malaysia doesn't have these laws?

translation: why was I so "desperate" to question your arrogant dogmatism that a meaningless survey would definitely reflect a real-life vote on the issue, and that the reason (only reason? - not sure, we seem to chop and change on that too) that these laws haven't come into effect is because of a non-muslim veto - even though we don't have a damn clue on non-muslim attitudes towards letting Malays implement the laws for Malays.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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