Australian Politics Forum - Is Christian religion dying out?

Yadda

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #120 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:08pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 11:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 10:31am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 10:24am:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 10:18am:

It's hard to believe that intelligent people at the head of the church still believe in:
angels, devils, satans, witches, goblins, leprechauns, elfs
ghosts, heaven & hell

Are you so sure of that. The Catholic Church has been playing that down for decades. Most (if not all ) western Anglican clerics (senior and junior) are avowed agnostics.

Rubbish - the Pope & his followers believe all that nonsense & a whole lot more.

e.g. turning cracker biscuits into the body of Christ & wine into his blood -
the list goes on & on.

It's all insane & it's time for the world to wake up.

P.S. - I forgot to mention miracles.

You're confusing solemn ritual with frank blind belief.

The Vatican particularly is highly sceptical (if not harbouring outright disbelief) in divine miracles. The devil is never mentioned (except perhaps metaphorically). Sainthood in the Catholic Church is more akin to awarding a posthumous Victoria Cross for services rendered to humanity.

Its really only the weird and creepy American evangelical neo-Christianity that maintains a 14th century belief in these things.

Sorry for the truth -

the Pope & his followers believe all that nonsense & a whole lot more.

There's no doubt that many Christians do believe that the devil frankly exists (i.e. is not just a metaphor for psychiatric conditions and predilections).

There's no doubt that nearly everybody (if not everybody) harbours a vestige of superstition... Touching wood, wearing lucky charms, chanting mantras, 'sending it out to the universe' et al... This phenomenon, I believe, will be part of the human condition forever...

Like the old Virgil quote - "They can because they think they can"...

Like how in the early 20th cent. many circumstances [of history] conspired to bring about the formation of the state of Israel ?

And how, despite many challenges throughout their history, today the Jewish people - defying all odds - have managed to create a great and productive nation for themselves - despite many attempts by their neighbours to undermine their achievements and security ?

"They can because they think they can"...

The Jewish people were able to create and to secure their Jewish state - purely because the Jewish people knew that they could accomplish that reality ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #121 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:35pm

Bobby. wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

Religion is similar to a computer virus:

It's passed down to following generations by brain washing children.

Superstition is the natural effect of fear of the unknown. It can manifest as religion, but, just as easily, it can manifest in vilification of the societal 'enemy within' - an imagined fifth column.

If you're prepared to be cynical about religious belief, you should equally be as cynical about the 'religion' of nationalism, 'patriotism' and the religion of 'cultural destiny' in the form of a cultural 'born to rule'.

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 107263 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Is Christian religion dying out? Reply #122 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:37pm Yadda - you're another one who believes in religious nonsense. How many of these do you believe in? angels, devils, Satan, witches, goblins, leprechauns, elfs miracles. ghosts, heaven hell holy cracker biscuits that are Christ's body holy wine that is his blood resurrections You are forgiven namaste
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Yadda

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #123 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:44pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

Religion is similar to a computer virus:

It's passed down to following generations by brain washing children.

Superstition is the natural effect of fear of the unknown. It can manifest as religion, but, just as easily, it can manifest in vilification of the societal 'enemy within' - an imagined fifth column.

If you're prepared to be cynical about religious belief, you should equally be as cynical about the 'religion' of nationalism, 'patriotism' and the religion of 'cultural destiny' in the form of a cultural 'born to rule'.

I am not in any disagreement, with what you have expressed, in that sentiment.

To me, a persons religious belief [his/her 'religion'] is how he/she lives his/her life [....being guided by what he/she believes].

What we do believe [about our 'reality'?], does guide out actions and our choices in life [........i believe].

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #124 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:44pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

Like how in the early 20th cent. many circumstances [of history] conspired to bring about the formation of the state of Israel ?

And how, despite many challenges throughout their history, today the Jewish people - defying all odds - have managed to create a great and productive nation for themselves - despite many attempts by their neighbours to undermine their achievements and security ?

"They can because they think they can"...

The Jewish people were able to create and to secure their Jewish state - purely because the Jewish people knew that they could accomplish that reality ?

The history of Jews is an interesting example.

As far as the stories of the old testament are concerned, almost unanimously now, Jewish intelligentsia, accept that they have no basis in history... They are myths... In other words, the Jewish right to the land is based on fantasy.

As far as defending their right to exist in Israel is concerned, the argument is now not so much that the land was chosen for them (with the exception of the Ultra-Orthodox, who largely don't believe in the existence of Israel - believing only the coming of the Messiah in the flesh has the right to establish the state), but, having been vilified for thousands of years as the perennial fifth column in Europe, have little reason to trust Europeans with their lives within Europe. Nearly every nation in Europe has vilified, expelled or murdered them en masse. Even the 'great' religious reformer, Martin Luther, despised them and recommended their vilification and exile from Christendom.

Their insistence on their right to exist in Israel is almost entirely due to fear of being murdered than the mythical 'god of the Jews'.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #125 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:55pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

Religion is similar to a computer virus:

It's passed down to following generations by brain washing children.

Superstition is the natural effect of fear of the unknown. It can manifest as religion, but, just as easily, it can manifest in vilification of the societal 'enemy within' - an imagined fifth column.

If you're prepared to be cynical about religious belief, you should equally be as cynical about the 'religion' of nationalism, 'patriotism' and the religion of 'cultural destiny' in the form of a cultural 'born to rule'.

I am not in any disagreement, with what you have expressed, in that sentiment.

To me, a persons religious belief [his/her 'religion'] is how he/she lives his/her life [....being guided by what he/she believes].

What we do believe [about our 'reality'?], does guide out actions and our choices in life [........i believe].

That's true. Secularism is largely bolstered by our innate sense of wonder (manifesting as a fascination with science). It does not necessarily assuage existential fears as much as distracts us from them.

This should not be seen as a denial, but paraphrasing of Virgil... "We can because we think we can know the universe". To quote Einstein's ironic observation - "The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible."

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Yadda

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #126 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:57pm

How many of these do you believe in?

angels, - YES!
devils, - YES! demons
Satan, - YES!
witches, ????? - i could be classed as a witch - but i don't call spirits, i worship God, and i seek him
goblins - more demons
leprechauns - more demon entities
elfs - more demons
miracles. - what is a miracle, except something an 'occurrence' we cannot explain - you want to witness a 'miracle' ? birth of a new child - watch the sun rise - embrace someone who you deeply love
ghosts, - YES! [there was a ghost, an entity, in this [my] house, when i first came here]
heaven - YES!
hell - ??? - i believe that there will be an uncomfortable place of confinement for those who do not please God
holy cracker biscuits that are Christ's body - it is a psychic aid, for those who need its 'power'
holy wine that is his blood - it is a psychic aid, for those who need its 'power'
resurrections - YES!

You are forgiven

namaste

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #127 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:05pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:55pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

Religion is similar to a computer virus:

It's passed down to following generations by brain washing children.

Superstition is the natural effect of fear of the unknown. It can manifest as religion, but, just as easily, it can manifest in vilification of the societal 'enemy within' - an imagined fifth column.

If you're prepared to be cynical about religious belief, you should equally be as cynical about the 'religion' of nationalism, 'patriotism' and the religion of 'cultural destiny' in the form of a cultural 'born to rule'.

I am not in any disagreement, with what you have expressed, in that sentiment.

To me, a persons religious belief [his/her 'religion'] is how he/she lives his/her life [....being guided by what he/she believes].

What we do believe [about our 'reality'?], does guide out actions and our choices in life [........i believe].

That's true. Secularism is largely bolstered by our innate sense of wonder (manifesting as a fascination with science). It does not necessarily assuage existential fears as much as distracts us from them.

This should not be seen as a denial, but paraphrasing of Virgil... "We can because we think we can know the universe".

To quote Einstein's ironic observation - "The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is comprehensible."

I like.....

"It is my suspicion that the universe is not only stranger than we do imagine but it is stranger than we can imagine."

J.B.S.Haldane - biochemist

We are very 'clever monkeys', but not that clever [imo]! [i.e. not clever enough, imo]

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #128 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:06pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:57pm:

miracles. - what is a miracle, except something an 'occurrence' we cannot explain - you want to witness a 'miracle' ? birth of a new child - watch the sun rise - embrace someone who you deeply love

You are avoiding the question with metaphor.

Everyone can accept that those things you mention are 'miracles' in the metaphoric sense.

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Yadda

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #129 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:09pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

Like how in the early 20th cent. many circumstances [of history] conspired to bring about the formation of the state of Israel ?

And how, despite many challenges throughout their history, today the Jewish people - defying all odds - have managed to create a great and productive nation for themselves - despite many attempts by their neighbours to undermine their achievements and security ?

"They can because they think they can"...

The Jewish people were able to create and to secure their Jewish state - purely because the Jewish people knew that they could accomplish that reality ?

The history of Jews is an interesting example.

As far as the stories of the old testament are concerned, almost unanimously now, Jewish intelligentsia, accept that they have no basis in history... They are myths... In other words, the Jewish right to the land is based on fantasy.

As far as defending their right to exist in Israel is concerned, the argument is now not so much that the land was chosen for them (with the exception of the Ultra-Orthodox, who largely don't believe in the existence of Israel - believing only the coming of the Messiah in the flesh has the right to establish the state), but, having been vilified for thousands of years as the perennial fifth column in Europe, have little reason to trust Europeans with their lives within Europe. Nearly every nation in Europe has vilified, expelled or murdered them en masse. Even the 'great' religious reformer, Martin Luther, despised them and recommended their vilification and exile from Christendom.

Their insistence on their right to exist in Israel is almost entirely due to fear of being murdered than the mythical 'god of the Jews'.

Jews today [some, many?] don't believe in God.

Its an opinion. Grin

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #130 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:12pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:09pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

Like how in the early 20th cent. many circumstances [of history] conspired to bring about the formation of the state of Israel ?

And how, despite many challenges throughout their history, today the Jewish people - defying all odds - have managed to create a great and productive nation for themselves - despite many attempts by their neighbours to undermine their achievements and security ?

"They can because they think they can"...

The Jewish people were able to create and to secure their Jewish state - purely because the Jewish people knew that they could accomplish that reality ?

The history of Jews is an interesting example.

As far as the stories of the old testament are concerned, almost unanimously now, Jewish intelligentsia, accept that they have no basis in history... They are myths... In other words, the Jewish right to the land is based on fantasy.

As far as defending their right to exist in Israel is concerned, the argument is now not so much that the land was chosen for them (with the exception of the Ultra-Orthodox, who largely don't believe in the existence of Israel - believing only the coming of the Messiah in the flesh has the right to establish the state), but, having been vilified for thousands of years as the perennial fifth column in Europe, have little reason to trust Europeans with their lives within Europe. Nearly every nation in Europe has vilified, expelled or murdered them en masse. Even the 'great' religious reformer, Martin Luther, despised them and recommended their vilification and exile from Christendom.

Their insistence on their right to exist in Israel is almost entirely due to fear of being murdered than the mythical 'god of the Jews'.

Jews today [some, many?] don't believe in God.

Its an opinion. Grin

I think they subscribe to the ritual of being Jewish without the need to be 'god'-like and therefore much less burdened by frank belief than Christians who are burdened with striving to be Christ-like (an impossible feat when Christ is in effect a mythical god).

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #131 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:18pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:05pm:

I like.....

"It is my suspicion that the universe is not only stranger than we do imagine but it is stranger than we can imagine."

J.B.S.Haldane - biochemist

Yes, the kind of statement from one who is so enamoured by wonder that he does not want to imagine an end to it...

True wonder is a childlike emotion (not childish).

I'd say the odds of its being totally imaginable are small.

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Yadda

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #132 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:30pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:57pm:

miracles. - what is a miracle, except something an 'occurrence' we cannot explain - you want to witness a 'miracle' ? birth of a new child - watch the sun rise - embrace someone who you deeply love

You are avoiding the question with metaphor.

Everyone can accept that those things you mention are 'miracles' in the metaphoric sense.

Let me express it this way;

I believe in 'supernatural' things, in the sense that man doesn't have the [intellectual?] capacity to understand what is happening about him. [....and i include myself in that description of man's 'capacities']

I believe God, i trust God.

I trust that God, has my best interests at heart, because i firmly believe that God loves me.

Do i believe the account of the events of Exodus 14 ?

Yes.

Do i believe the account of the events of Daniel 3 ?

Yes.

Do i believe that the spirit of God can raise a man from the dead ?

Yes.

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #133 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:37pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:57pm:

miracles. - what is a miracle, except something an 'occurrence' we cannot explain - you want to witness a 'miracle' ? birth of a new child - watch the sun rise - embrace someone who you deeply love

You are avoiding the question with metaphor.

Everyone can accept that those things you mention are 'miracles' in the metaphoric sense.

Let me express it this way;

I believe in 'supernatural' things, in the sense that man doesn't have the [intellectual?] capacity to understand what is happening about him. [....and i include myself in that description of man's 'capacities']

And in that you are probably one with all of us. 'Supernatural' as a metaphor for the unexplained... Totally congruent with secular thinking.

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:30pm:

[
Do i believe the account of the events of Exodus 14 ?

Yes.

Do i believe the account of the events of Daniel 3 ?

Yes.

Do i believe that the spirit of God can raise a man from the dead ?

Yes.

You are at odds with Jewish modern thinking (who have a much more powerful existential reason for discovering the literal truth of these myths than you or I can possibly imagine).

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Yadda

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #134 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:57pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:12pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:09pm:

Jews today [some, many?] don't believe in God.

Its an opinion. Grin

I think they subscribe to the ritual of being Jewish without the need to be 'god'-like and therefore much less burdened by frank belief than Christians who are burdened with striving to be Christ-like (an impossible feat when Christ is in effect a mythical god).

Not really.

The same God.

The spirit which was in Jesus, in the flesh, was the same spirit.

John 10:31
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.i+++

But i know that it offends some people, the thought that there is a God.

[while i am in this body....] I see the same world, the very same reality, which you see.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
.....
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him:...

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit:...

John 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

The spirit, the God, that led the Hebrews out of Egypt......

1 Corinthians 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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