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Is Christian religion dying out? (Read 22011 times)
Winston Smith
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #195 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 6:00pm
 
Frances wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 5:34pm:
Paragraph 1376 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Quote:
The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation


What we eat and drink does become our flesh and blood doesn't it?
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Frances
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #196 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 6:11pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 5:53pm:
what about Dave Allen?


Definitely not Dave Allen.
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red baron
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #197 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 6:38pm
 
Trouble with organised religion, is that, well, it's just so organised.

When I want to talk to the big fella, I go further up the mountain , to a secluded lookout with a view which goes on forever.

No smoking chalices, beads, wafers and all of that nonsense.

I just breathe in the majesty of that grand view and I feel as close to God as it is likely for a mere human spirit to get.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #198 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 7:46pm
 
red baron wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 6:38pm:
Trouble with organised religion, is that, well, it's just so organised.

When I want to talk to the big fella, I go further up the mountain , to a secluded lookout with a view which goes on forever.

No smoking chalices, beads, wafers and all of that nonsense.

I just breathe in the majesty of that grand view and I feel as close to God as it is likely for a mere human spirit to get.

Sure. But don't you have to organise yourself to go further up the mountain , to a secluded lookout with a view which goes on forever?

Can't you get close to the big fella in a bus, with 7 bags of shopping from the fresh food people, sitting next to a fat stinking schizophrenic, on a rainy Wednesday night? That'd be pretty disorganised.

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #199 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 8:04pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 5:44pm:
What would Billy Connolly say?


Poor Billy ~ I think God's going to have the last laugh. Connolly's been told he has Parkinson's.


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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #200 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 8:06pm
 
There is a vast difference between the "Original Teachings of Jesus" (Esoteric Christianity) and the "Religion about Jesus" (conventional / Exoteric Christianity).

Jesus taught of the need to be Born again of the Spirit - where as Paul of Tarsus, known as the Apostle Paul (and of whom it must be noted - did not respond well to Jesus until after his crucifixion) was more invested in the promotion of exoteric or public teaching.

This more public teaching also better suited the stratagem and goals of what was to become The Holy Roman Empire.

So unfortunately what might be called True Christianity or the Higher Spiritual Teachings of Jesus  never had much of a chance ... even from near the very beginning! 

Quote:
Esoteric Christianity

"Believe me, a man cannot
even see the kingdom of God
without being born again." 1

By

Norman D. Livergood

About 25-30 C.E. a mystical teacher named Jesus began to tell people about a spiritual realm in which the person who would be leader must be a servant of all. He spoke of a definite re-birth into a Higher Consciousness.

Jesus indicated that his message consisted of a public (exoteric) message for all the people and an advanced (esoteric) teaching reserved for initiates.


Quote:
The Esoteric Tradition

Mark 4: "Then when they were by themselves, his close followers and the twelve asked about the parables, and he told them: 'The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those who do not know the secret, everything remains in parables, so that, seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them.'"

       "So he taught them his message with many parables such as their minds could take in. He did not speak to them at all without using parables, although in private he explained everything to his disciples." [Phillips translation]

Matthew 13: "The man who has ears to hear should use them"
      "At this the disciples approached him and asked, 'Why do you talk to them in parables?
      "'Because you have been given the chance to understand the secrets of the kingdom of Heaven,' replied Jesus, 'but they have not. For when a man has something, more is given to him till he has plenty. But if he has nothing even his nothing will be taken away from him. This is why I speak to them in these parables; because they go through life with their eyes open, but see nothing, and with their ears open, but understand nothing of what they hear."' [Phillips translation]

1 Corinthians 2:6-15: "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: which none of the princes of this world knew.

      "We interpret what is spiritual in spiritual language. The unspiritual man rejects these truths of the Spirit of God; to him they are 'sheer folly,' he cannot understand them. And the reason is, that they must be read with the spiritual eye. The spiritual man, again, can read the meaning of everything; and yet no one can read what he is."

Clement of Alexandria (150-220 C.E.)

"The Lord . . . allowed us to communicate of those divine Mysteries, and of that holy light, to those who are able to receive them. He did not certainly disclose to the many what did not belong to the many; but to the few to whom He knew that they belonged, who were capable of receiving and being moulded according to them. But secret things are entrusted to speech, not to writing, as is the case with God."

"Many things, I well know, have escaped us, through length of time, that have dropped away unwritten."

"Even now I fear, as it is said, 'to cast the pearls before swine, lest they tread them underfoot, and turn and rend us.' For it is difficult to exhibit the really pure and transparent words respecting the true Light to swinish and untrained hearers."


ww.beezone.com/esoteric_christianity.htm

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« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2014 at 8:12pm by 0ktema »  


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0ktema
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #201 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 8:12pm
 
Quote:
Movement Away from the Authentic Teachings of Jesus


     After Jesus' death, those who understood the genuine teaching of Jesus recognized him as one of a long line of savants within the Perennial Tradition 2--such as Hermes and Plato--who initiated chosen disciples into a mystical rebirth of the soul into a Higher Consciousness.

     Each Perennialist teacher interpreted the fundamental message about spiritual regeneration in terms of the needs of the people during their age. So we have the Hermetic teachings during the time of Hermes Trismegistus, the Mystery teachings during the days of Egypt and Greece, Platonism during the time of Plato, Neo-Platonism during the time of Plotinus--each an embodiment of the Perennial Tradition. The genuine, hidden teachings of Jesus--Esoteric Christianity--is one of those embodiments.

     Early Christianity developed in the crowded, poverty-stricken cities of Asia Minor, finding its adherents among the working class and slaves. Throughout the Roman empire, there was intense social ferment . In the century before Jesus, a widespread revolt of slaves led by Spartacus conquered most of southern Italy and threatened the Roman Empire.

     Within a short time, there came into being a new sacerdotal state-supported Church 3 which misrepresented Jesus as a god. Such genuine adepts as Paul, Clement of Alexandria, Marcion, Valentinus, and Origen, understood Jesus' true teachings and did not view him as a deity but as a mystical teacher. Those who instructed initiates in the authentic teachings of Jesus found it necessary to go underground, because a tyrannous, bureaucratic "church" was taken over by the Roman Empire and deformed into a "state religion."

       During this period, there developed a large number of writings which claimed to be authentic representations of Jesus' life and teachings. In this morass of confusion, these varied interpretations of Jesus' teachings vied for acceptance.

     One of the persons who first wrote about Jesus was a man who had been an enemy of the church until he experienced a mystical conversion. Paul saw himself as an apostle (one sent on a mission), perhaps "the" apostle, of Jesus. He believed he had actually experienced Jesus in a mystical encounter during which he was commissioned to spread the "good news"--the gospel of Jesus' teaching--presenting a conception of God as forgiving, loving, and wise.

     Paul was aghast when he learned that Peter and some of the other apostles of Jesus in Jerusalem and other cities were interpreting Jesus's message as an extension of Judaism, using the Hebrew Old Testament as a major scripture.

"Paul is the only one who had any apprehension of the real esoteric significance of the Christ Myth in its cosmic aspects, while at the same time he was obliged to base his teachings principally on the exoteric beliefs of his hearers which centred round the personal Jesus."


ww.beezone.com/esoteric_christianity.htm
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Bobby.
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #202 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 8:20pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 8:04pm:
Bobby. wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 5:44pm:
What would Billy Connolly say?


Poor Billy ~ I think God's going to have the last laugh. Connolly's been told he has Parkinson's.





Still - he was good for a laugh.   Smiley
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Winston Smith
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #203 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 12:17am
 
Wherever I go, there I am.
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #204 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 6:17am
 
Bobby. wrote on Mar 10th, 2014 at 8:20pm:
Still - he was good for a laugh.   Smiley


He was a unique character, that's for sure, but even so I think he used the 'F' word far too much for cheap effect during his stage performances.

I liked his travel documentaries.

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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #205 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 7:35am
 
I believe Christianity will transform itself(or should I say, Christianity will be reinvented).

We humans will always entertain our personal superstitions (and, let's face it, what kind of Spock-like creature is that endearing - a personification of the disorders of schizoidism or autism) - who isn't charmed by a little superstition here and there - a lucky charm worn etc? Its as uniquely human as cognizance of our self-awareness.

We as humans value tradition almost as much as sanity (and maybe sanity is founded on healthy ritual) and, of all traditions, the Papacy is the most enduring of traditions, linking the west with its Roman heritage - The Pope being the direct successor to the Caesars.

What about a Christianity as Bishop Spong imagines it, sans miracles, sans iron age beliefs, concentrating only on the goodness of its central character, hopefully leading us to realise that "we can because we think we can" do right by others without exception because we have a human incarnation of the golden rule. That we can be convinced, courageous and compassionate within that paradigm of "righteousness incarnate", encouraging us to attain ultimate goodness.

Like truth itself (the journey towards it being worthy of the effort without the expectation of fully apprehending it), so too goodness being worthy of the same journey.

In the end for us westerners, we'd be back to Plato (which the early Christian fathers so admired and absorbed) - his form of the good and his form of the true being the greatest ideals and the most worthy of pursuit.





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« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2014 at 7:40am by NorthOfNorth »  

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red baron
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #206 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 7:52am
 
NorthofNorth the Big Fella is forgiving but not that forgiving. I don't do buses, as that would involve having to sit with the creep shows that inhabit public transport now.

Most probably have my lights punched by people like those moles on the Gold Coast recently.

Think I'll stick to the Mountain, decided lack of people here.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #207 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 7:55am
 
red baron wrote on Mar 11th, 2014 at 7:52am:
NorthofNorth the Big Fella is forgiving but not that forgiving. I don't do buses, as that would involve having to sit with the creep shows that inhabit public transport now.

Most probably have my lights punched by people like those moles on the Gold Coast recently.

Think I'll stick to the Mountain, decided lack of people here.

So you'd agree that organisation is mandatory for the correct expression or experience of religion / spirituality then?
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #208 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 8:15am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 11th, 2014 at 7:35am:
I believe Christianity will transform itself(or should I say, Christianity will be reinvented).

We humans will always entertain our personal superstitions (and, let's face it, what kind of Spock-like creature is that endearing - a personification of the disorders of schizoidism or autism) - who isn't charmed by a little superstition here and there - a lucky charm worn etc? Its as uniquely human as cognizance of our self-awareness.

We as humans value tradition almost as much as sanity (and maybe sanity is founded on healthy ritual) and, of all traditions, the Papacy is the most enduring of traditions, linking the west with its Roman heritage - The Pope being the direct successor to the Caesars.

What about a Christianity as Bishop Spong imagines it, sans miracles, sans iron age beliefs, concentrating only on the goodness of its central character, hopefully leading us to realise that "we can because we think we can" do right by others without exception because we have a human incarnation of the golden rule. That we can be convinced, courageous and compassionate within that paradigm of "righteousness incarnate", encouraging us to attain ultimate goodness.

Like truth itself (the journey towards it being worthy of the effort without the expectation of fully apprehending it), so too goodness being worthy of the same journey.

In the end for us westerners, we'd be back to Plato (which the early Christian fathers so admired and absorbed) - his form of the good and his form of the true being the greatest ideals and the most worthy of pursuit.







True north, i look at JC and the Buddha as "divinely inspired" or "spiritual einsteins"
Life is indeed a journey. If you can understand the best bits of christian and buddhist "wisdom" its a journey down a 6 lane highway in a smooth car with air con.
If you want to make that journey alone as an aethiest , its hacking through thick thorny jungle with a machete.
I know which i'd rather do,
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0ktema
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Re: Is Christian religion dying out?
Reply #209 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 8:38am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 11th, 2014 at 7:35am:
What about a Christianity as Bishop Spong imagines it, sans miracles, sans iron age beliefs, concentrating only on the goodness of its central character, hopefully leading us to realise that "we can because we think we can" do right by others without exception because we have a human incarnation of the golden rule. That we can be convinced, courageous and compassionate within that paradigm of "righteousness incarnate", encouraging us to attain ultimate goodness.

Like truth itself (the journey towards it being worthy of the effort without the expectation of fully apprehending it), so too goodness being worthy of the same journey.

In the end for us westerners, we'd be back to Plato (which the early Christian fathers so admired and absorbed) - his form of the good and his form of the true being the greatest ideals and the most worthy of pursuit.







Ah yes ... John Shelby Spong an interesting man ... Christian, Theologian, Mystic and ex-Bishop.
I remember him saying something along the lines of "there are many paths to the holy"

Adi Da Saraj uses the term ... The "Great Tradition"  for the total inheritance of human, cultural, religious, magical, mystical, Spiritual, Transcendental, and Divine paths, philosophies, and testimonies from all the eras and cultures of humanity, which has (in the present era of worldwide communication) become the common legacy of humankind ... (and so therefore the many paths)


And the of course there is the "Great Mystery" our relationship with reality itself ... that with which we can only commune, enjoy, be graced by (or perhaps suffer) ... and yet never fully understand (at least from an individual mind point of view). For as soon as we choose to examine it we necessarily begin the process of separation from the "One Great Being" or the very "State of Beingness Itself".
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« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2014 at 8:55am by 0ktema »  


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