To get the thread back on subject

Quote:

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:


Yes. Quite conspicuously so. Your not realizing that makes me wonder what kind of church you attended:

The following link includes both the KJV as well as the Tanach published by a very anti-Christian group of Jews engaged in "counter-missionary education":
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm

KJV Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

Fulfilled as recorded by Matthew:

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.   17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.   18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Now that was penned many centuries before Jesus was crucified, and even centuries before crucifixion was ever even invented!

Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Your not knowing there is prophecy in Psalms - indeed one of the most stunning Messianic prophesies - makes it a little hard to imagine that you ever even read the New Testament that confirms it. If you abandoned Jesus when you were a young man, perhaps it's time to take another look at the evidence, and see the reasons why 1/3 of mankind believe Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected from the grave.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm

If you consider your lack of knowledge of the stunning prophecy of Christ's crucifixion in Psalms, and this time are willing to actually consider the evidence that I am going to present, I think I can help you find your way back home. But you have to open your eyes, break out a Berean spirit, and set aside your prior indoctrination, that may well be part of the reason you abandoned Jesus. If you try reading with a neutral attitude this time I believe you will benefit greatly.

For openers, you will not be well served by using a New Age Bible version, as a comparison of the germane section will reveal. Let's stick with the KJV which is the most highly and widely regarded English version, and standard by which all others are measured.

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:


The NIV from which you quote that was purchased by Rupert Murdoch who collects the royalties, is just another pop-Bible that was, sadly, created primarily with some doctrinal, but primarily a profit, motive. Few things in the literary world are more profitable than creating yet another version of the largest selling book in the history of mankind. So let's look at the difference:

KJV Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

And that's just what happened. The scattered power of the holy people (Jews were the only holy people in Daniel's day) was accomplished, or came to an end, in 1967 when they gained control of Jerusalem completing their consolidation of power over their covenant land.

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:


A good observation as explained just a couple of verses later. What the end of the shattered power of the Jews marks, is the beginning of what Daniel's prophecy calls the "time of the end":

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:


Over the last couple of centuries there has been far too much proclaiming by indoctrinated men of what is "correct" and what is not. A more Berean spirited and open approach would be to ask "what if" that were correct. What might we learn then?

In the 19th century two pop-eschatologies began to come into vogue, and by the 20th century they became universal. These are the approaches of futurism and preterism, that displaced the traditional historicist approach to New Testament prophecy, which is the same approach that ALL Jews and Christians take for Old Testament prophecy.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/

This was prophesied: 2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Through those two pop-approaches the church came to believe that a "time, times and a half" indicated simply 3-1/2 years. But what happens when we look at the Tanach to see what Hebrew scholars believe that ancient Hebrew idiom indicates?

Continued in the next post.

I told you the post would be continued but you didn't wait. The resurrection of the dead and Second Coming of Christ come at the end of what Daniel described as the "time of the end". Now let's look at how Hebrew scholars interpret that Hebrew idiom:

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.

So Hebrew scholars understand that to indicate a factor of 2-1/2. However they readily admit that their scriptures are silent on just what a "time" is.

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:


That's exactly right. We could experiment with different lengths of time and with various understandings of the world "time". Now while those old covenant saints may be sovereignly blinded to the Gospel, you and I aren't. In the New Testament we find:

2 Peter 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day (that is, hemera) [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Greek word that is translated as "day" in the above verse is "hemera".  It is an ambiguous word, the definition of which, is determined by it's context.
In 3 other passages in the KJV it is translated as "time" (in 12 verses in the NASB).

From Strong's:
New Testament Greek Definition:
2250 hemera {hay-mer'-ah}
from (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit,
akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle;
TDNT - 2:943,309; n f
AV - day 355, daily + 2596 15,

time 3

, not tr 2, misc 14; 389

So WHAT IF we TRY understanding a "time" as a thousand years? What might we come up with?

If we look back to the beginning of the passage in Daniel we find:

Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing [was] true, but the time appointed [was] long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

I think you and I would both agree that the typical "church" understanding of 3-1/2 years, would hardly qualify as a long appointed time, in prophecy. But what happens IF we travel forward in time 2500 years from the "third year of Cyrus"?

Bible handbooks that were published prior to 1948 pin the first year of Cyrus at 537-536 BC, making the third year of Cyrus 534-533 BC. So what happens IF we consider 2500 years forward in time from 534-533 BC?

2500 -533 = 1967

1967 was the year of the six-day war which "ended shattering the strength of the holy people". Isn't that surprising? If you want to add a "zero year" start from the other side of the range at 534 BC.

Now look at the verse I posted earlier:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

From the math problem we can see that NOBODY could have done other than scratch their heads over the math, UNTIL after 1967 had come to pass, and we could see the problem in HINDSIGHT. So it seems the seal on the book of Daniel wasn't opened by a guy named John Nelson Darby (the "father" of futurism), or Jesuit Francisco Ribera (credited with preterism in the modern "church"), so no man could take credit. Rather the seal on the book of Daniel was opened through the simple passage of time, and fulfillment of prophecy in HINDSIGHT! Isn't that a wonderful and amazing prophecy?

Reformers like Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton looked upon the times in their future - upon the times in which we live - with what would seem no small measure of envy:

http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#reformers_time_of_end

Matthew Henry: "VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book.....
He must seal the book because it would not be understood, and therefore would not be regarded, till the things contained in it were accomplished.....
Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved."

Isaac Newton: ".....these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many.

Isn't that wonder full?! And it required the NT to understand the OT:

Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

You simultaneously expressed ignorance and arrogance when you quipped:

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:


Yet after I showed you the miracle of the prophecy in Psalms 22, and its New Testament fulfillment, from Jesus' crucifixion right down to His garments being parted and lots being cast for the parts, you simply ignored the post:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/108#108

The miracle of a prophecy, that along with Isaiah 53 and others, has brought so many Jews into relationship with Jesus Christ throughout the Christian era. Many Jews that came to Christ through that conspicuous truth, even though they were largely unfamiliar with the New Testament.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm

But you, who even claims to have been exposed to the New Testament to some extent, simply ignores the prophetic miracle contained in Psalms 22 and moves on as it it was never posted, just as you have so many of my other posts and parts of posts to you. You, unlike those previously blinded Messianic Jews, are a Gentile that is in full knowledge of the Gospel, but then rejects Jesus. Indeed through the spirit of antichrist even goes out and campaigns against the Gospel.

Thus when you stand in judgment before the very Son of God that you now deny, in all likelihood you will not be allowed the excuse of ignorance, and thereby perhaps be excused by it. Like someone that lives in a remote village that was never brought the Gospel, or someone that is too young or mentally challenged to understand:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

In all likelihood you will stand in judgment as being fully responsible, and in complete knowledge, but then having turned around and rejected Jesus:

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Romans 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 7:54am:


I pointed out to you the unique nature of your position through scripture so you could get a better idea of what you are up against, as compared to some backwater dweller that was never brought, or never understood, the Gospel.

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 7:54am:


Yes I did:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 11:22pm:


Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 7:54am:


When we entered the "

time

of the end", not the end.

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 7:54am:


You probably missed the whole post, as your replies would suggest you do all my posts to you.
Daniel's book was sealed until the "time of the end":

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

So nobody on earth could fully understand the book of Daniel until the time of the end, as observed by Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton, for example, that I quoted. While the "church" bought into the pop-eschatologies of preterism and futurism, that blinded it to the math, as well as blinding it to Muhammad being the prophesied false prophet, and his Islamic kingdom "beast" the final foe of God's people:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
Unlike those Berean spirited Reformers that I quoted, today's pop-indoctrinated church all parading around under the banner of having all the answers to the book of Daniel, even though futurists in actually follow 19th century John Nelson Darby, and preterists follow 17th century Roman Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar. Their supersessionist doctrine even preventing them from believing the stunning reality of the restoration of Jews to their land is of the Lord.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm
Both doctrines being contrary the TRADITIONAL approach of historicism to New Testament prophecy. Both doctrines blinding the "church" to nearly 2,000 years of Christian era history as having anything to do with Bible prophecy:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4  And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This is likely in no small measure a large part of the reason you abandoned the "church". Teachings about some future boogieman that puts computer chips in folks foreheads and such nonsense. Christiahs getting whisked away in a "pre-tribulation" "rapture". Or the preterist assertion that "The" "Antichrist" was Nero in the 1st century, blinding folks to the fact that there are 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today in Islam alone. And that number doesn't include atheists. Many thus disillusioned by pop-eschatology, return to Christ on fire for the Lord, after considering all Bible prophecy UNIFORMLY through the tradition of historicism as those great men of God like Matthew Henry, Isaac Newton and Christians throughout the Christian era approached New Testament prophecy.

I patiently explained to you that nobody could see the fulfillment of the mathematical solution to the problem that Daniel presented, until after 1967 had passed, and now that it has come to pass and we find ourselves in the "time of the end" we can easily understand it mathematically as well as textually. It is further confirmed in stunning fashion by the physical fulfillment of Jews being restored to their covenant land, that was anticipated by Christians through prophecy, centuries before that restoration ever began.
http://www.zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm

This mathematical, textual, and physical reality of the restoration of Jews to their land, indicates we may well be in what Daniel described as the "time of the end", and perhaps not far away from the resurrection of the dead and the second coming of Christ.

Yet just like you ignored the stunning prophecy in Psalms 22, you dither on in your misunderstanding of Daniel, while ignoring the math, text, and physical matter of fact of Jews being restored to their land.
http://www.zionismchristian.com/daniel_prophesied_modern_zionism.htm

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:


On the contrary. I am trying to warn you about that fate through scripture. I can't know God's judgments nor did I proclaim to. I am warning you as to what scripture warns. If I didn't love you, and wasn't concerned about you, why would I bother?

If I didn't love Muslims, why would I bother warning them about the STAND-ALONE false prophet Muhammad, proclaiming the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel and blaspheming the Son of God?

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:


I don't know why you insist on Rupert Murdoch's Bible when I already pointed out to you the most egregious error of this particular verse, which is likely part of the reason you refuse to address the restoration of Jews to their land, and restoration of their strength and power which continues to be fulfilled with nearly half of the Jews in the world today living in Israel:

KJV Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

Tanach: Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.

The fulfillment of the shattered strength of the holy people occurred in 1967 when they were restored to power over Jerusalem, which marked our entry into what Daniel's prophecy describes as the "time of the end". Here's the way Luke put it:

Luke 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2: But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

Confirmed mathematically:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#court_witho...

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:


Which I pointed out is supported by the math - right to the year - the text, as well as the physical matter of fact of Jews being restored to their land which "ended shattering the strength of the holy people".
Third year of Cyrus 533BC + 2500 years = 1967

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:


I recommend you go on vacation to Syria, Iran, Nigeria or Somalia.

AP - December 06, 2006 MOGADISHU, Somalia - "Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an Islamic courts official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

It would help if you told me what eschatology the "church" that you formerly attended ascribed to. Was it futurism or partial preterism?
http://www.christianeschatology.com/