Australian Politics Forum - Gandalf's version of human rights

freediver

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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #30 - Jan 12^th, 2014 at 9:45am

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And yet I'm not making any such assumptions.

Like that the Chinese and Indians support Muslims killing people in the name of Islam because it is their right to do so?

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When they're actually the "bad guys"?

When they actually support the most barbaric aspects of Islam.

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You are right FD, we absolutely should use this survey to demonize and exercise our prejudice against muslims.

We should use it to prove what Muslims actually think to those who automatically dismiss it out of some misguided belief that ignoring extremism will make it go away.

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Its certainly a whole lot more constructive than trying to understand the clear inconsistency between this one survey and the demonstrated voting and political behaviour of Malays in the real world.

There is no inconsistency. There is only your total confusion and hypocrisy about how democracy works.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gandalf's version of human rights Reply #31 - Jan 12^th, 2014 at 6:36pm freediver wrote on Jan 12^th, 2014 at 9:45am: Quote: And yet I'm not making any such assumptions. Like that the Chinese and Indians support Muslims killing people in the name of Islam because it is their right to do so? Feel free to quote me arrogantly "assuming" any such thing.
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freediver

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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #32 - Jan 13^th, 2014 at 8:08am

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Hillarious that you seem to have no clue as to how dishonest this is. "muslims killing people in the name of islam" could be jihadists running around blowing people up in shopping malls. It is not - yet why do you seem to go out of your way to make it sound like that? The truth is, we are talking about whether or not muslims have the right to introduce hudud apostasy and adultery laws on themselves, and only on themselves. What is actually being proposed is vastly different to your dishonest spin.

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lol now you are just plain confused. They were specifically asked about hudud. There are no "banal" laws - they are all barbaric in your books - hudud specifically refers to death and amputations. And the point here is non-muslim Malaysians don't have to like the laws to appreciate that muslims have the right to enact those laws on themselves if they like.

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3. "How many non-Muslims believe muslims have the right to introduce their own laws for executing apostates and stoning adulterers?"
number 3 is the most accurate question to ask in the context of what Malaysians think about the laws. And it also addresses the fact that non-muslims don't have to support, or be in "favour" of the laws to not be an obstacle for their implementation. And the correct and obvious answer must start with "the evidence indicates...".

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gandalf's version of human rights Reply #33 - Jan 13^th, 2014 at 8:43am Evidently you missed basic reading comprehension at school. None of those even come close to me "assuming" what non-muslims think.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf's version of human rights Reply #34 - Jan 13^th, 2014 at 9:19am Right. You are just pointing out what the evidence suggests... I would describe it as you cynically trying to spin it as a rights issue.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gandalf's version of human rights Reply #35 - Jan 13^th, 2014 at 10:29am freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2014 at 9:19am: Right. You are just pointing out what the evidence suggests... I would describe it as you cynically trying to spin it as a rights issue. No, its me cynically spinning this as a 'you don't have a damn clue what sort of issue these non-muslims see it as' issue.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf's version of human rights Reply #36 - Jan 13^th, 2014 at 10:32am So where did this crap about rights come from?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #37 - Jan 13^th, 2014 at 10:56am

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2014 at 10:32am:

So where did this crap about rights come from?

If group A want to introduce laws that only apply for group A, then maybe just maybe group B see this as their right. I'm not saying they *DO* (as you falsely claimed I said), but it is not the outrageous possibility that you so arrogantly claim it is. Thats all I've ever said.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf's version of human rights Reply #38 - Jan 13^th, 2014 at 11:13am You introduced the rights issue. I had never mentioned it. It all sounds very reasonable as long as you fail to mention that the laws are about allowing Muslims to kill people in the name of Islam. Do you actually think the Chinese and Indians largely see it as the right of Muslims to execute apostates?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #39 - Jan 13^th, 2014 at 3:14pm

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2014 at 11:13am:

Do you actually think the Chinese and Indians largely see it as the right of Muslims to execute apostates?

Thank you for describing it accurately for once.

And I'd be amazed if even you can't see what a difference it makes - to say "...the right of muslims to execute apostates" as opposed to the tired old "...the right of muslims to kill people in the name of islam".

As to the question - I honestly don't know, and never claimed to know. I will say three things about it though:

1. It is not the outrageous question you make it out to be

2. There is not a shred of evidence to indicate that they overwhelmingly oppose muslims enacting this law

3. The only evidence produced so far says that most Chinese and Indians either agree with the statement that "hudud promises justice for all" (actual question) or are undecided. And executing apostates is part of the proposed hudud law in Malaysia.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #40 - Jan 13^th, 2014 at 3:23pm

That's an awful lot of backpedalling for someone who entered this debate by claiming to know from first hand experience how Malaysians feel about these laws - without even needing to ask them.

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And I'd be amazed if even you can't see what a difference it makes - to say "...the right of muslims to execute apostates" as opposed to the tired old "...the right of muslims to kill people in the name of islam".

Of course I can see the difference. One gets you all wound up.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #41 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 6:59am

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2014 at 3:23pm:

someone who entered this debate by claiming to know from first hand experience how Malaysians feel about these laws - without even needing to ask them.

Umm I was talking about Malaysian muslims. This discussion is about what you claim to know about what non-muslims feel.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Gandalf's version of human rights Reply #42 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:21am ... and about you spinning it as a rights issue.
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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #43 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:56am

freediver wrote on Jan 13^th, 2014 at 3:23pm:

That's an awful lot of backpedalling for someone who entered this debate by claiming to know from first hand experience how Malaysians feel about these laws - without even needing to ask them.

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And I'd be amazed if even you can't see what a difference it makes - to say "...the right of muslims to execute apostates" as opposed to the tired old "...the right of muslims to kill people in the name of islam".

Of course I can see the difference. One gets you all wound up.

gandalf has no idea how appalled nonmuslims find his ideas that it is ok to murder anyone due to a belief/disbelief.

that is case 1 for any cult.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Gandalf's version of human rights Reply #44 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 11:15am Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:56am: gandalf has no idea how appalled nonmuslims find his ideas that it is ok to murder anyone due to a belief/disbelief. Yes, my ideas
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