Australian Politics Forum - judge Muslims by actions, not views?

freediver

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judge Muslims by actions, not views?
Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:30am

90% of this forum is Muslims and their apologists arguing that Islam and/or Muslims cannot possibly be judged by the actions of individual Muslims or of governments. So I was surprised to see Gandalf post this - in response to a survey of what Muslims actually think:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 13^th, 2014 at 2:56pm:

Personally, I prefer to exercise caution when judging an entire group of people to be "little Hitler's" and demonize them based solely on one survey in which they are asked to answer "yes" or "no" to a hypothetical. I think its fair to judge them on their actual behaviour - and quite frankly it is not the behaviour of "little Hitler's" to live in harmony with their non-muslim neighbours, nor to overwhelmingly reject the extremist policies you accuse them of wanting, election after election.

The context was Malaysia, where the majority of Muslims support executing apostates and stoning adulterers to death. When Gandalf talks about living in harmony, he means that the (61%) Muslim majority has established, through Malaysia's democracy, an oppressive state in which the government actively promotes Islam, tells people based on their race what their religion is, and sends apostates to "rehabilitation" camps where they are forced to dress and act like Muslims.

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« Last Edit: Jan 25^th, 2014 at 12:29pm by polite_gandalf »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Reply #1 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 10:54am Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan
Reply #2 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 10:54am

Absolutely FD.

+++

Moslems sincerely want others [even those 'others' who are infidels], to think well of them, and of other moslems.

And even a rabid moslem, is a virtuous person, in his own eyes, or in the eyes of a fellow moslem.

That is the psyche, which moslems have, which is inculcated into the moslem mind.

i.e.
That the moslem is the virtuous person.

Why so ?

Because the moslem is unable to acknowledge [or to even see], the oppression which he [the moslem] seeks to impose upon the one who is not a moslem.

You must understand Tongue

, ISLAM is Allah's perfect religion.

And moslems are perfected human beings - by the very state of being moslems.

And that is the mindset which has been inculcated into psyche of moslems, from childhood.

Look at all of the moslems in places like Syria, those moslems are the moslems who are doing 'good works' for Allah, and doing 'good works' for their religion.
...even as those moslems slaughter those persons [for example in Syria] who come into their power.

You must understand Tongue

....
The moslem, is the virtuous person, especially when he is slaughtering the rebellious infidel [...even if the 'infidel' who is being slaughtered considers himself [too] to be a 'rightly guided' moslem !! ].

ISLAM = = 'breaks' and corrupts the human psyche.

gandalf no doubt, will publicly condemn the violence that is occurring in Syria - BEING COMMITTED IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.

But gandalf and other moslems present themselves as moslems who are unable to end the violence that is occurring in Syria BEING COMMITTED IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.

If not gandalf and if not the [worldwide] moslem community, then who should stop such violence - BEING COMMITTED IN THE NAME OF ISLAM ?

But remember;
The moslem is the virtuous person. Tongue

"Ye [moslems] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
Koran 3.110

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan
Reply #3 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 11:12am

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:30am:

90% of this forum is Muslims and their apologists arguing that Islam and/or Muslims cannot possibly be judged by the actions of individual Muslims or of governments.

90% of my posts have been arguing that muslims should be judged by how the majority of muslims behave. You are referencing a discussion in which it was pointed out that the vast majority of muslims vote for anti-hudud parties and live harmoniously with their non-muslim neighbours.

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:30am:

The context...

The context was you labelling people "little Hitler's" and making mysterious references to WWII imperial Japanese (which somehow wasn't drawing any sort of comparison - go figure Tongue

), and generally demonizing an entire group of people because of how they responded in a survey.

And you are "surprised" that I would dare suggest that given the demonstrated behaviour of the vast majority of Malays, your "little Hitler" label is a tad over the top - well colour me shocked Cheesy

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Pete Waldo

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Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan
Reply #4 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 7:59pm

".....judge Muslims by actions, not views?"

There is only one judge of persons, and it isn't us. It is the very Son of God that Muslims blaspheme:

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Nor can we know God's judgments on persons:

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Perhaps more constructive title would have been: "...judge Muslim's actions by their books", that prescribe what their behavior is supposed to be.

For example if they are male and are not engaged in the imperialistic conquest of violent jihad, their behavior is hypocritical, according to the behavior that is prescribed for them by their books.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrite...

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« Last Edit: Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:27pm by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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freediver

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Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan
Reply #5 - Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:41pm

Quote:

90% of my posts have been arguing that muslims should be judged by how the majority of muslims behave.

The majority of Malaysian Muslims are responsible for the backwards and oppressive laws of Malaysia.

Quote:

You are referencing a discussion in which it was pointed out that the vast majority of muslims vote for anti-hudud parties and live harmoniously with their non-muslim neighbours.

The two major parties are anti-hudud because it is not in their interest to be pro-hudud, as it would split the Muslim community nearly right down the middle and turn the less barbaric Muslims towards other minority groups for protection. An election is not a referendum on a single issue, especially in first-past-the-post elections where there is a strong disincentive against voting for minor parties.

Putting apostates into rehabilitation camps is not living in harmony. It is naked, vulgar oppression, and only a Muslim would even think to spin it any other way.

Quote:

The context was you labelling people "little Hitler's" and making mysterious references to WWII imperial Japanese (which somehow wasn't drawing any sort of comparison - go figure Tongue), and generally demonizing an entire group of people because of how they responded in a survey.

By this Gandalf means that they want to stone adulterers to death - one of the most barbaric punishments you can think of, as well as executing apostates. But we mustn't think badly of them for this. We must instead make up excuses for why they don't really think what they say they think.

Quote:

And you are "surprised" that I would dare suggest that given the demonstrated behaviour of the vast majority of Malays, your "little Hitler" label is a tad over the top - well colour me shocked

The Nazis did not slaughter any Jews - until they started slaughtering them. The vast majority of Nazis lived harmoniously with their Jewish neighbours, until the jackboots came and took them away while they pretended not to notice. The comparison is entirely appropriate and anyone with any foresight and decency would be worried about the path Malaysia is taking.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Pete Waldo

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Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan
Reply #6 - Jan 15^th, 2014 at 3:43am

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:41pm:

Quote:

And you are "surprised" that I would dare suggest that given the demonstrated behaviour of the vast majority of Malays, your "little Hitler" label is a tad over the top - well colour me shocked

The Nazis did not slaughter any Jews - until they started slaughtering them. The vast majority of Nazis lived harmoniously with their Jewish neighbours, until the jackboots came and took them away while they pretended not to notice. The comparison is entirely appropriate and anyone with any foresight and decency would be worried about the path Malaysia is taking.

"Little Hitler" is exactly what the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem WAS, with several Islamic SS divisions and and Islamic Panzer division in Hitler's army:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sk3fKY9PhY

http://www.zionismchristian.com/hitler_and_mufti.htm

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Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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wally1

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Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan
Reply #7 - Jan 15^th, 2014 at 10:04am

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 3:43am:

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:41pm:

Quote:

And you are "surprised" that I would dare suggest that given the demonstrated behaviour of the vast majority of Malays, your "little Hitler" label is a tad over the top - well colour me shocked

The Nazis did not slaughter any Jews - until they started slaughtering them. The vast majority of Nazis lived harmoniously with their Jewish neighbours, until the jackboots came and took them away while they pretended not to notice. The comparison is entirely appropriate and anyone with any foresight and decency would be worried about the path Malaysia is taking.

"Little Hitler" is exactly what the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem WAS, with several Islamic SS divisions and and Islamic Panzer division in Hitler's army:

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/2e22cdb0.jpg

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/2e32cc80.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sk3fKY9PhY

http://www.zionismchristian.com/hitler_and_mufti.htm

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan
Reply #8 - Jan 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:41pm:

The majority of Malaysian Muslims are responsible for the backwards and oppressive laws of Malaysia.

Oh really? So why can't we apply your "2/3rds of Malaysians oppose" crap to these laws then? Given the pages and pages of lecturing about elections not ever being referendums on single issues, and the layers of obscurity in the Malaysian election system, the lack of press freedom of etc etc, how do you propose to spin those laws as being the responsibility of "the majority of Malaysian Muslims"?

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:41pm:

Putting apostates into rehabilitation camps is not living in harmony. It is naked, vulgar oppression, and only a Muslim would even think to spin it any other way.

The number of actual rehabilitation camp cases can be counted on one hand. The fact is, as vulgar as they are, they only come up in cases where the person is attempting to "officialize" their apostasy - either by changing their identity card, or marrying a non-muslim - and to be clear, the vast majority of those cases do not result in rehabilitation camps. The reality is, it is a system that is easy to get around - get your husband to sign a paper saying they are muslim, or simply don't drag it through the courts insisting on an identity change. I'm not defending the system, but it is hardly "naked, vulgar oppression" in the scheme of things. And just to clarify, most apostates don't actually go to rehabilitation camps, they simply have their application to be legally recognised as a non-muslim rejected.

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:41pm:

The Nazis did not slaughter any Jews - until they started slaughtering them.

Reality check please.

The nazis started instituting laws and measures for state-sanctioned persecution of the jews immediately after taking power in 1933. The boycott of jewish businesses, banning them from civil service and the street violence happened straight away. Non-muslims in Malaysia get along just fine in the muslim-majority nation - always have always will. No persecution of any kind whatsoever - no hint of any future persecution of any kind whatsoever.

To even mention Malaysia and the nazis in the same sentence is vile and deeply offensive.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Datalife Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2405 Gender:	Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Reply #9 - Jan 15^th, 2014 at 10:29am polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am: To even mention Malaysia and the nazis in the same sentence is vile and deeply offensive. LOL, jeebers, this forum is chockfull of luvvies calling the coalition Nazis.
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Reply #10 - Jan 15^th, 2014 at 10:39am http://www.islam-watch.org/ http://www.jihadwatch.org/ http://islammonitor.org/
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Reply #11 - Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:02am Gee thanks Grendel, I totally never knew about those websites.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan
Reply #12 - Jan 15^th, 2014 at 12:26pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:02am:

Gee thanks Grendel, I totally never knew about those websites. Tongue

Actually gandalf, you are not the only individual who frequents the pages on this forum.

There are lots of people who come to the OzPol pages who know very little about what moslems believe, and about what ISLAM actually promotes [and is].

And as regards;
Quote:

judge Muslims by actions, not views

I say we should listen less, to what moslems tell us [non-moslems] about ISLAM, and we should pay more attention to the behaviour of moslems;

THE RELIGION OF PEACE

http://thereligionofpeace.com/

......and, we should listen to the communications that moslems have with other moslems;

Google;
Dispatches - Undercover Mosque, UK

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Pete Waldo

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Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan
Reply #13 - Jan 15^th, 2014 at 8:02pm

wally1 wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 10:04am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 3:43am:

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:41pm:

Quote:

And you are "surprised" that I would dare suggest that given the demonstrated behaviour of the vast majority of Malays, your "little Hitler" label is a tad over the top - well colour me shocked

The Nazis did not slaughter any Jews - until they started slaughtering them. The vast majority of Nazis lived harmoniously with their Jewish neighbours, until the jackboots came and took them away while they pretended not to notice. The comparison is entirely appropriate and anyone with any foresight and decency would be worried about the path Malaysia is taking.

"Little Hitler" is exactly what the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem WAS, with several Islamic SS divisions and and Islamic Panzer division in Hitler's army:

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/2e22cdb0.jpg

http://www.beholdthebeast.com/2e32cc80.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sk3fKY9PhY

http://www.zionismchristian.com/hitler_and_mufti.htm

http://i.imgur.com/eH6WXzi.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/M7V60Dn.jpg

Here's a video titled "Hitler's Dupes" that might help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rcjzesMBbw

Your reality is inverted because you follow the father of lies through his messenger Muhammad. Lies must be true, and truth must be lies. Good becomes evil and evil must be construed as good. Like Muhammad and his follower's beheading of innocent Jewish farm boys, and rape of their little sisters, moms and grandmothers, and theft of their property = good. Rather than investigating to find the truth, and engaging in critical thought, you likely let Greek sophist styled entertainers and antichrist liars like Ahmed Deedat do your thinking for you.

Things that are evil and murderous, like the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad, Muhammad's followers must judge as good and right.

A person obviously only has to be slightly familiar with the Gospel to judge whether Hitler and his genocide of Jews were Christian or not:

John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Let alone that Hitler became whatever he thought he needed to be in the moment. What did he actually SAY?

(Dec. 13th, 1941) “Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless…”

(Oct. 19th, 1941) “The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.”

(from July 11th – 12th, 1941) “The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity….[an] invention of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.”

(Feb. 27, 1942) “…but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity…my regret will have been that I couldn't behold its demise.”

You could have parroted Hitler yourself, in the preceding, couldn't you? But what kind of things do Christians actually DO?

We help broken people around the world:
https://www.mercyships.org/about-mercy-ships/the-result/

Help feed and educate kids around the world:
http://www.compassion.com/

Help the homeless get back on their feet:
http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/

We free Islam's slaves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1j8D1j9mEc

But then you likely already know how the Gospel illustrates in no uncertain terms what a Christian is. Here's the second of the two greatest commands we are given:

Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Just as reading the Quran and Hadith inform us as to what a Muslim is supposed to do, and what a Muslim is supposed to be, and thus exactly why the Mufti of Jerusalem joined Hitler in genocide of Jews:

Qur'an 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners.

Quran Surah 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods .....they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an...

Sahih Bukhari B52 #177 Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "the Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Like this Islamic Imam and true follower of Muhammad on Jews:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viOfDdkonu8

http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_and_jews.htm

God gave us all the free will to follow the father of lies, or follow the truth. To follow the sinless Messiah, or his exact opposite in Muhammad. We are each held accountable for eternity, for the decision we make. I pray yours will become the right one, my friend.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

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« Last Edit: Jan 15^th, 2014 at 8:37pm by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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freediver

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Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan
Reply #14 - Jan 20^th, 2014 at 5:59pm

Quote:

Oh really? So why can't we apply your "2/3rds of Malaysians oppose" crap to these laws then?

Killing apostates and stoning adulterers to death splits the Muslim community nearly down the middle. It is inevitable that the non-Muslims will be able to exercise their balance of power on those two issues. Presumably the less barbaric laws are easier to get through. That makes sense to you, doesn't it? it seems pretty obvious to me.

Quote:

The number of actual rehabilitation camp cases can be counted on one hand. The fact is, as vulgar as they are, they only come up in cases where the person is attempting to "officialize" their apostasy - either by changing their identity card, or marrying a non-muslim - and to be clear, the vast majority of those cases do not result in rehabilitation camps. The reality is, it is a system that is easy to get around - get your husband to sign a paper saying they are muslim, or simply don't drag it through the courts insisting on an identity change.

Well that's just great isn't it. To get around these barbaric laws, you "merely" have to get your spouse to sign up to Islam in a country where the majority of Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy.

Quote:

The nazis started instituting laws and measures for state-sanctioned persecution of the jews immediately after taking power in 1933. The boycott of jewish businesses, banning them from civil service and the street violence happened straight away. Non-muslims in Malaysia get along just fine in the muslim-majority nation - always have always will. No persecution of any kind whatsoever - no hint of any future persecution of any kind whatsoever.

You are talking about a country that has two parallel legal systems and in which one of the 13 states actually passed a law for the execution of apostates. The Muslims have so far been unable to do this, but are not at all unwilling.

Quote:

To even mention Malaysia and the nazis in the same sentence is vile and deeply offensive.

Only if you are blind to what they are trying to do. Islam has been far more successful than Nazism precisely because it plays the long game when it has to, and Malaysia is a great example of this in action.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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