freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2014 at 5:59pm:


Pure worthless conjecture - as usual. In any case, you avoided the whole question about how the majority of muslims are responsible for those laws - just after lecturing me for pages and pages about the how its next to impossible for the electorate to actually have a say on any one particular issue, elections never referendums on single issues yada yada yada.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2014 at 5:59pm:


Whats "great" is that your fantasy about Malaysia being an oppressive society that routinely sends apostates to rehabilitation camps is just that - pure fantasy. The reality is completely different to your ignorant spin.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2014 at 5:59pm:


I am talking about a country that cannot, by any measure of common sense and ratioanality  be possibly compared to the nazis. We weren't talking about "the muslims" - nice attempt at deflection though.

And I'll stake my arm and leg that not one person will ever be executed for apostasy or stoned for adultery in Malaysia.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2014 at 5:59pm:


no more sensible than the rantings of a raving lunatic I'm afraid FD.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am:


The whole point is why brainwashing camps would have to exist at all. The reason is that you serve a god whose heavily abrogated, 23 year, 7th century record is revealed as the exact opposite of the Gospel of the God of the Christians and Jews. You serve a "messenger" that couldn't be more opposite to Jesus Christ.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

You serve a god whose lies are so apparent and transparent, that the only way the antichrist anti-religion of Islam was able to last any longer than Muhammad, is the threat of punishment for going against Islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am:


Can't even you see that you have been brainwashed away from even being able to remotely conceptualize our God-given rights to freedom, liberty and self-determination? If you were one of the non-Muslims you oppress, or wanted to marry a Christian, your view would obviously be considerably less casual. Even if you were an Ahmadiyya Muslim.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am:


Christians can't live a life filled with lies like Muhammad's followers do.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

A Malaysian Muslim dropped me a note on one of my YouTube channels. He confided that he had increasingly recognized that so much was false and evil about Islam, that he knew it couldn't be from a true and loving God, but he never thought Christianity could be right because of Islamic brainwashing against Christianity. He wrote "I am not saying I am a Christian or anything like that, but just that now I think it's possible that Christianity could be the right way."
All I did at that point was direct him to the Gospel of John on one of my websites, and told him to humbly ask Jesus directly, and right out loud, to help him find the truth.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

A couple weeks later he wrote "I am a Christian now." This, without any church being involved, or any men congratulating him and patting him on the back, or anything else. Purely a direct relationship between himself and Jesus Christ. We baptized him over the phone, because it is important to get that done to cover past sins, so a person isn't haunted by them going forward.

He was living outside of Malaysia at the time and was afraid to let his also-Muslim roommate know that he had become a Christian, and I told him there was no reason to, unless he was directly asked. But I also told him to be careful, because his face would likely give him away, as a result of the new found joy in his heart. It did, and when his roommate asked, he told him. Shortly thereafter a group of Imams came to his room to sit on him, but he resisted their pressure. He even became a Christian evangelist and street preacher in that small Islamic enclave in that foreign country.

Last time we made contact he was back in Malaysia, and had found some Christians to fellowship with, but he was absolutely confident that if his father found out he was a Christian he would kill him without hesitation. THAT is the only way, that Satan's anti-religion of Islam - a provable evil lie at every level - lasted any longer than Muhammad. When was the last time you heard about a Christian father murdering his child for leaving Christianity? Why do you suppose that is?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:

no man

cometh unto the Father, but by me.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am:


But that's exactly what it is, in the real scheme of things, in the light of the truth. Start with:
https://www.google.com/#q=churches+burned+malaysia

http://www.examiner.com/article/9-malaysian-churches-burned-dispute-over-allah



Try:
https://www.google.com/#q=christian+oppression+malaysia

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 10:26am:


Until you recognize Islamic slavery is the result of the struggle between truth and lies, between good and evil, you will remain on the wrong side of the equation. It doesn't have to be that way.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_love_of_god.htm

Quote:


Gandalf was recently trying to argue that Malaysian Muslims who say they support the death penalty for apostasy do not actually support it. He argued that the reason they do not have the death penalty for apostasy is because the Muslims who support it (who make up roughly 1/3 of the population) do not really think what they think or are somehow not motivated to get what they want. He even attempted to argue that the non-Muslims among the other 2/3 of the population support the "right" of Muslims to impose these laws on "themselves" (which for some reason includes apostates).

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2014 at 6:59pm:


Of course it makes sense. But its still worthless conjecture without any supporting evidence.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2014 at 6:59pm:


Wrong. Its 60%, 54% and 58% respectively. And guess what? According to that survey that you insist so vehemently is only about cutting off limbs and flogging for crimes, less than 30% of Chinese Malaysians disagreed with the notion that hudud could be a solution to widespread crime.

Question FD - why are hudud flogging and chopping off limb laws not in place in Malaysia, given that the evidence strongly suggests that a majority of Malaysians demonstrably do *NOT* oppose it? Food for thought.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2014 at 6:59pm:


Yes responsibility. Muslims are "responsible" for laws that were instituted not by the democratically elected government, but by the sharia courts that no one votes for. Yet when muslims overwhelmingly *CHOOSE* not to vote for the one party that offers the hudud laws they supposedly love so much, then the subsequent failure for those laws to get up is somehow *NOT* muslims responsibility. It is also *NOT* the muslims responsibility it seems, when both major parties (who incidentally both rely primarily on the Malay vote) consider it expedient to take an anti-hudud position into the election.

In short, muslims are responsible when bad things get through, but not when bad things are prevented/blocked.

Also what percentage of muslims do you think support these rehabilitation camps? Oh sorry I forgot, you only deal in baseless assumptions 

Quote:


I knew it would be an uphill struggle to use common sense

Quote:


Because people do not vote "NOT against" candidates and policies. That survey is transparent Islamic spin for the foolish and gullible.

Quote:


There is a democratic process that determines what those courts are able to do. If the majority of Malaysians were opposed to that arrangement, they could end it. The majority of Malaysians support the arrangement. The laws in Malaysia are a surprisingly accurate reflection of the opinions shown in the survey.

Quote:


Correct. Now repeat after me. An election is not a referendum on a single issue. The minority of Muslims who oppose those barbaric laws can take credit for blocking them, just as the non-Muslims who oppose them can also take credit for it, but you cannot tell who they are or how many of them there are based on an election outcome.

Quote:


Gandalf I am not sure why I need to point out the obvious again, but the issue splits the Malaysian Muslim community nearly right down the middle. I can only assume that you lump them all together as part of your endless misleading spin - I recall you made some BS claim that if the majority of Muslims support the law they could achieve it, even if they only make up 1/3 of the total population.

Quote:


Do you remember demanding I prove "my claim" that 2/3 of the population oppose these laws and that is why they are not law? How can you not see that that is giving credit where it is due?

Quote:


A lot more than support executing apostates.

Stratos wrote on Jan 20^th, 2014 at 9:54pm:


I have no doubt that corruption is a problem, but that does not mean you can somehow white-wash over all the problems that can be traced directly back to Islam. The country has two parallel legal systems - because of Islam.

Quote:


What have I actually suggested the government is doing, other than representing the will of the majority?

Quote:


What could they do?

Quote:


I notice you left out executing apostates. Is that because you know it almost came to pass in one state?

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:


Not really. And this line of argument is a pretty funny turnaround after pages and pages of lecturing about the near impossibility of getting any one specific issue up on the political/election agenda due to lack of press freedom, "layers of obscurity" in the Malaysian system and of course the 'elections no referendum on single issue' jig.

the key difference of course between the two cases is that in the case of hudud, the major parties took a very clear stance on the issue, whereas no one took any stance on what the syaria courts currently are able to do.

Oh and I won't even bother asking for evidence that "the majority of Malaysians" support the current arrangement 

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:


According to one random survey - *NOT* according to voting behaviour or the pattern of political agenda setting of Malay (muslim) political parties.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:


Let me guess, another deferring to common sense, and "just taking an honest guess"? Beats actual evidence right?

Stratos:

Quote:


Welcome to the debate. The majority of Malaysian Muslims do. However they only make up less than 1/3 of the total population.

Quote:


Corruption is not the same thing as being all-powerful.

Quote:


What are you on about now? Malaysia has two separate legal systems, one of which is based on Shariah.

Quote:


What is your point? Are you suggesting this is consistent with it not even being on the radar? Or are you just changing the goal posts now you realise it is indeed on the radar? If Queensland passed a controversial law and it was knocked down on appeal in the federal court on constitutional grounds, would it be reasonable to argue that it is not even on the radar in Australian politics?

Quote:


Because the majority of Malaysians oppose it. The state in question has far more Muslims and the law is likely supported by the majority there. If those Muslims had their way, they would be executing apostates.