Australian Politics Forum - Truebelieverland

Swagman

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #105 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:37pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:00pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:43pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:21pm:

The GST was brought in so that they could lower the tax for the rich and the high income earners

Amongst other reasons The GST was brought in to broaden the tax base as one counter to an inevitable declining tax payer base brought on by an aging population.

The alternative is an income tax spiral or a debt spiral or more likely both.

Ohhh BS!!!! The GST was brought in to recalibrate the tax burden so that high income earners could pay less income tax. All your spin wont change that fact

Yes that's the standard reply one get's from Truebelievers... Roll Eyes

High income earners spend more. GST is a tax on spending. High income earners spend more and therefore pay more GST.

The GST is regressive but therein is its effectiveness. It gathers in tax revenues from areas that pre-GST were untaxed. The black economy, tourist dollars, proceeds of crime even high profile tax evaders with hidden tax havens.

In turn it's the down trodden citizens that get the MOST benefit out of the GST revenues. The GST helps to fund the social services that they live off.

Hewson's 15% GST would now be 20 years old. Just how much more do you think that the Public Sector would have benefitted from 50% more GST revenue for the last 20 years Smarty Sparty? Grin

You Lefties dropped the ball in a spectacular fashion with that one.

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St George of the Garden

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #106 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:52pm

Swagman wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:37pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:00pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:43pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:21pm:

The GST was brought in so that they could lower the tax for the rich and the high income earners

Amongst other reasons The GST was brought in to broaden the tax base as one counter to an inevitable declining tax payer base brought on by an aging population.

The alternative is an income tax spiral or a debt spiral or more likely both.

Ohhh BS!!!! The GST was brought in to recalibrate the tax burden so that high income earners could pay less income tax. All your spin wont change that fact

Yes that's the standard reply one get's from Truebelievers... Roll Eyes

High income earners spend more. GST is a tax on spending. High income earners spend more and therefore pay more GST.

The GST is regressive but therein is its effectiveness. It gathers in tax revenues from areas that pre-GST were untaxed. The black economy, tourist dollars, proceeds of crime even high profile tax evaders with hidden tax havens.

In turn it's the down trodden citizens that get the MOST benefit out of the GST revenues. The GST helps to fund the social services that they live off.

Hewson's 15% GST would now be 20 years old. Just how much more do you think that the Public Sector would have benefitted from 50% more GST revenue for the last 20 years Smarty Sparty? Grin

You Lefties dropped the ball in a spectacular fashion with that one.

It was a measure to transfer income from poor to rich, just look at the size of the tax cuts!

Now the GST is acting to depress spending, yeah fantastic. Efficient? Pig’s arse!

Not only that, there is all the irresponsible, reckless spending by Howard to reward the rich that is costing the Budget like $100Bn a year and climbing. The rich spend lot less proportionally and probably can get out of paying GST like they do income tax. And asset millionaires are still on full or part age pensions!

Howard only came up with the GST as a political ploy—he had run out of agenda.

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Truebelieverland Reply #107 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 4:26pm St George of the Garden wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:52pm: Howard only came up with the GST as a political ploy—he had run out of agenda That's ridiculous. The GST was about as popular as a fart in an elevator. It certainly wasn't a vote buyer....
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ImSpartacus2

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #108 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 4:35pm

Swagman wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:37pm:

High income earners spend more. GST is a tax on spending. High income earners spend more and therefore pay more GST.

Oh Cr@p. This is what a high income earner (billionaire as a matter of fact) says about that BS spin argument. You know you pretend your proposals are for the interests of the community as a whole but they are transparently intended to advance your own interests at the expense of everyone else.

[/quote]

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St George of the Garden

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #109 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 4:38pm

True—and Howard would have realised that but relied on his huge buffer of seats won in ’96.

In the end he basically lost the ’98 election—48.5%TPP but enough seats to hang on. Gave him a big scare.

From 2001—he spent like a drunken sailor and did in 2004, 2007 and we still have a Budget overloaded with pork despite all Swann’s efforts (cut like $130Bn of middleclass welfare.) The spending fanned the flames of a borrow-to-spend boom and inflated the boom. Bastards even tried to lower the prudential regulation of banks so the boom could be inflated even more—we might have lost at least one bank had they succeeded and had even a bigger crash in 2008.

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John Smith

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #110 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:38pm

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:48pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:34pm:

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 12:41pm:

ok, here is the reality.
Currently we are paying around 5k rent a month, 3k rent/mortgage, we are not holidaying or allowing ourselves any luxuries, we pretty much work for the kids education, roof over our heads, food, rent and ... yes, you guessed it 10% GSfknT!
Now, normally we have to extend the GST repayments, as we constantly, and I mean forever living on credit, this vicious circle is scary, as our kids are still very young.
The 10% is 5-6k out of our pockets every QTR, sometimes more, depends on the time of the year, and we struggle to pay. Not to mention Income tax!
Should the 25% hit us, it will kills us and our business, leave us and our kids in the hands of fate.
Next door business neighbours are already at this stage, the premises have been 'for lease' the last 6 months.
It's unaffordable.
But go on, why not, let's test it.

The GST collected by your business should exceed the GST paid by your business unless your business is unprofitable.

The trade-off of a high GST is low marginal tax rates and low company tax rates.

The business is profitable, but the more the profit the more GST, isn't that right.
Example:
Total sales in a Qtr = $150000
Total purchases = $80000
total GST is $6363
add PAYGs another 3-4 gran, here is your share of $10K
so seems like it's better if business produces less sales

but increase it to 25%, you will be up to $30K

seems reasonable?
or am I missing something?

the gst you collect IS NOT YOURS ....you cannot spend it.

if you have trouble distinguishing between your money and GST, I'd suggest that at the end of every day, you take .11% of the days takings and put them into a seperate bank account. Come GST time, you'll be able to pay the gst ... depending on how much GST you've paid you may even have some left over that I'd suggest you leave there for when its time to pay your income tax.

If your income is not enough with the gst taken out, then it's simply not a very profitable business.

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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Torpedo

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #111 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 8:16pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:38pm:

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:48pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:34pm:

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 12:41pm:

ok, here is the reality.
Currently we are paying around 5k rent a month, 3k rent/mortgage, we are not holidaying or allowing ourselves any luxuries, we pretty much work for the kids education, roof over our heads, food, rent and ... yes, you guessed it 10% GSfknT!
Now, normally we have to extend the GST repayments, as we constantly, and I mean forever living on credit, this vicious circle is scary, as our kids are still very young.
The 10% is 5-6k out of our pockets every QTR, sometimes more, depends on the time of the year, and we struggle to pay. Not to mention Income tax!
Should the 25% hit us, it will kills us and our business, leave us and our kids in the hands of fate.
Next door business neighbours are already at this stage, the premises have been 'for lease' the last 6 months.
It's unaffordable.
But go on, why not, let's test it.

The GST collected by your business should exceed the GST paid by your business unless your business is unprofitable.

The trade-off of a high GST is low marginal tax rates and low company tax rates.

The business is profitable, but the more the profit the more GST, isn't that right.
Example:
Total sales in a Qtr = $150000
Total purchases = $80000
total GST is $6363
add PAYGs another 3-4 gran, here is your share of $10K
so seems like it's better if business produces less sales

but increase it to 25%, you will be up to $30K

seems reasonable?
or am I missing something?

the gst you collect IS NOT YOURS ....you cannot spend it.

if you have trouble distinguishing between your money and GST, I'd suggest that at the end of every day, you take .11% of the days takings and put them into a seperate bank account. Come GST time, you'll be able to pay the gst ... depending on how much GST you've paid you may even have some left over that I'd suggest you leave there for when its time to pay your income tax.

If your income is not enough with the gst taken out, then it's simply not a very profitable business.

I am not saying it's not enough, just saying that 25% is not possible, unless you remove all other taxes, but even then, I don't see how one can manage 30000 or so tax every quater?
The business is profitable, it's just not always possible to collect money before the payments are demanded, well, with our business anyway.
And by the time you've collected your share, your suppliers have put on stop credit, and taxation office is threatening you life or death.
So, with 25% is a definite DEATH

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If GST rises by 5%, then your income must also rise by 5%. Which means you will either become unemployed or underpaid. Choose wisely

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St George of the Garden Gold Member Offline http://tinyurl.com/n 3o8m2x Posts: 9809 Gender:	Re: Truebelieverland Reply #112 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:15pm Not always possible in small business to put the net GST you collected aside, doesn’t take much more than a flat patch + higher expenses than normal. It is NOT like putting aside a proportion of your pay.
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Torpedo

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #113 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:28pm

St George of the Garden wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:15pm:

Not always possible in small business to put the net GST you collected aside, doesn’t take much more than a flat patch + higher expenses than normal. It is NOT like putting aside a proportion of your pay.

exactly my point, thank you.
Business income is not the same as set wages, where you know when and how much. Although, couple of times we had to delay the wages...
well, what do you do if everything is going up like crazy, do you pay wages and switch off phones and electricity? how the heck do you run the business then?
With 25% you'd be on streets asking for help:
"please help, we need to cover taxes and wages"

what's the point having a business then?

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If GST rises by 5%, then your income must also rise by 5%. Which means you will either become unemployed or underpaid. Choose wisely

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John Smith

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #114 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:30pm

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 8:16pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:38pm:

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:48pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:34pm:

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 12:41pm:

ok, here is the reality.
Currently we are paying around 5k rent a month, 3k rent/mortgage, we are not holidaying or allowing ourselves any luxuries, we pretty much work for the kids education, roof over our heads, food, rent and ... yes, you guessed it 10% GSfknT!
Now, normally we have to extend the GST repayments, as we constantly, and I mean forever living on credit, this vicious circle is scary, as our kids are still very young.
The 10% is 5-6k out of our pockets every QTR, sometimes more, depends on the time of the year, and we struggle to pay. Not to mention Income tax!
Should the 25% hit us, it will kills us and our business, leave us and our kids in the hands of fate.
Next door business neighbours are already at this stage, the premises have been 'for lease' the last 6 months.
It's unaffordable.
But go on, why not, let's test it.

The GST collected by your business should exceed the GST paid by your business unless your business is unprofitable.

The trade-off of a high GST is low marginal tax rates and low company tax rates.

The business is profitable, but the more the profit the more GST, isn't that right.
Example:
Total sales in a Qtr = $150000
Total purchases = $80000
total GST is $6363
add PAYGs another 3-4 gran, here is your share of $10K
so seems like it's better if business produces less sales

but increase it to 25%, you will be up to $30K

seems reasonable?
or am I missing something?

the gst you collect IS NOT YOURS ....you cannot spend it.

if you have trouble distinguishing between your money and GST, I'd suggest that at the end of every day, you take .11% of the days takings and put them into a seperate bank account. Come GST time, you'll be able to pay the gst ... depending on how much GST you've paid you may even have some left over that I'd suggest you leave there for when its time to pay your income tax.

If your income is not enough with the gst taken out, then it's simply not a very profitable business.

I am not saying it's not enough, just saying that 25% is not possible, unless you remove all other taxes, but even then, I don't see how one can manage 30000 or so tax every quater?
The business is profitable, it's just not always possible to collect money before the payments are demanded, well, with our business anyway.
And by the time you've collected your share, your suppliers have put on stop credit, and taxation office is threatening you life or death.
So, with 25% is a definite DEATH

it doesn't matter how much it is since you only ever pay it after you've collected it .. what sort of system are you using? Hire a book keeper, or if you have one, replace him/her with one who knows what they are doing.

The only affect increased GST may have is it will in the short term decrease demand for your products ... again, I say short term because in the long term, the consumer will get used to it and life will move one.

I'm not here advocating increasing GST to 25%, but your arguments for not doing so aren't making a lot of sense to me.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Torpedo

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #115 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:34pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:30pm:

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 8:16pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:38pm:

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:48pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:34pm:

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 12:41pm:

ok, here is the reality.
Currently we are paying around 5k rent a month, 3k rent/mortgage, we are not holidaying or allowing ourselves any luxuries, we pretty much work for the kids education, roof over our heads, food, rent and ... yes, you guessed it 10% GSfknT!
Now, normally we have to extend the GST repayments, as we constantly, and I mean forever living on credit, this vicious circle is scary, as our kids are still very young.
The 10% is 5-6k out of our pockets every QTR, sometimes more, depends on the time of the year, and we struggle to pay. Not to mention Income tax!
Should the 25% hit us, it will kills us and our business, leave us and our kids in the hands of fate.
Next door business neighbours are already at this stage, the premises have been 'for lease' the last 6 months.
It's unaffordable.
But go on, why not, let's test it.

The GST collected by your business should exceed the GST paid by your business unless your business is unprofitable.

The trade-off of a high GST is low marginal tax rates and low company tax rates.

The business is profitable, but the more the profit the more GST, isn't that right.
Example:
Total sales in a Qtr = $150000
Total purchases = $80000
total GST is $6363
add PAYGs another 3-4 gran, here is your share of $10K
so seems like it's better if business produces less sales

but increase it to 25%, you will be up to $30K

seems reasonable?
or am I missing something?

the gst you collect IS NOT YOURS ....you cannot spend it.

if you have trouble distinguishing between your money and GST, I'd suggest that at the end of every day, you take .11% of the days takings and put them into a seperate bank account. Come GST time, you'll be able to pay the gst ... depending on how much GST you've paid you may even have some left over that I'd suggest you leave there for when its time to pay your income tax.

If your income is not enough with the gst taken out, then it's simply not a very profitable business.

I am not saying it's not enough, just saying that 25% is not possible, unless you remove all other taxes, but even then, I don't see how one can manage 30000 or so tax every quater?
The business is profitable, it's just not always possible to collect money before the payments are demanded, well, with our business anyway.
And by the time you've collected your share, your suppliers have put on stop credit, and taxation office is threatening you life or death.
So, with 25% is a definite DEATH

it doesn't matter how much it is since you only ever pay it after you've collected it .. what sort of system are you using? Hire a book keeper, or if you have one, replace him/her with one who knows what they are doing.

The only affect increased GST may have is it will in the short term decrease demand for your products ... again, I say short term because in the long term, the consumer will get used to it and life will move one.

I'm not here advocating increasing GST to 25%, but your arguments for not doing so aren't making a lot of sense to me.

no John, nothing to do with bookeeper, neither with understanding money vs GST...
you simply don't have any idea what small business is.
If it was so simple, many of these businesses would be operating until now, but what we are seeing is more and more closing down
Because rent, taxes and wages just don't make sense anymore, and you defend increase?
Short term?
Yeah, I will see you

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If GST rises by 5%, then your income must also rise by 5%. Which means you will either become unemployed or underpaid. Choose wisely

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Dnarever

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #116 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:39pm

Swagman wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:37pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:00pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:43pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:21pm:

The GST was brought in so that they could lower the tax for the rich and the high income earners

Amongst other reasons The GST was brought in to broaden the tax base as one counter to an inevitable declining tax payer base brought on by an aging population.

The alternative is an income tax spiral or a debt spiral or more likely both.

Ohhh BS!!!! The GST was brought in to recalibrate the tax burden so that high income earners could pay less income tax. All your spin wont change that fact

Yes that's the standard reply one get's from Truebelievers... Roll Eyes

High income earners spend more. GST is a tax on spending. High income earners spend more and therefore pay more GST.

The GST is regressive but therein is its effectiveness. It gathers in tax revenues from areas that pre-GST were untaxed. The black economy, tourist dollars, proceeds of crime even high profile tax evaders with hidden tax havens.

In turn it's the down trodden citizens that get the MOST benefit out of the GST revenues. The GST helps to fund the social services that they live off.

Hewson's 15% GST would now be 20 years old. Just how much more do you think that the Public Sector would have benefitted from 50% more GST revenue for the last 20 years Smarty Sparty? Grin

You Lefties dropped the ball in a spectacular fashion with that one.

High income earners spend more. GST is a tax on spending. High income earners spend more and therefore pay more GST.

High income earners save more (GST free) High income earners Invest more (GST free) and have more discretion on their spending in general. The GST introduction provided the biggest drop in tax on luxury goods.

High income earners pay GST on a lower percentage of their income.

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John Smith

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #117 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:39pm

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:34pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:30pm:

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 8:16pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:38pm:

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:48pm:

Swagman wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 2:34pm:

Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 12:41pm:

ok, here is the reality.
Currently we are paying around 5k rent a month, 3k rent/mortgage, we are not holidaying or allowing ourselves any luxuries, we pretty much work for the kids education, roof over our heads, food, rent and ... yes, you guessed it 10% GSfknT!
Now, normally we have to extend the GST repayments, as we constantly, and I mean forever living on credit, this vicious circle is scary, as our kids are still very young.
The 10% is 5-6k out of our pockets every QTR, sometimes more, depends on the time of the year, and we struggle to pay. Not to mention Income tax!
Should the 25% hit us, it will kills us and our business, leave us and our kids in the hands of fate.
Next door business neighbours are already at this stage, the premises have been 'for lease' the last 6 months.
It's unaffordable.
But go on, why not, let's test it.

The GST collected by your business should exceed the GST paid by your business unless your business is unprofitable.

The trade-off of a high GST is low marginal tax rates and low company tax rates.

The business is profitable, but the more the profit the more GST, isn't that right.
Example:
Total sales in a Qtr = $150000
Total purchases = $80000
total GST is $6363
add PAYGs another 3-4 gran, here is your share of $10K
so seems like it's better if business produces less sales

but increase it to 25%, you will be up to $30K

seems reasonable?
or am I missing something?

the gst you collect IS NOT YOURS ....you cannot spend it.

if you have trouble distinguishing between your money and GST, I'd suggest that at the end of every day, you take .11% of the days takings and put them into a seperate bank account. Come GST time, you'll be able to pay the gst ... depending on how much GST you've paid you may even have some left over that I'd suggest you leave there for when its time to pay your income tax.

If your income is not enough with the gst taken out, then it's simply not a very profitable business.

I am not saying it's not enough, just saying that 25% is not possible, unless you remove all other taxes, but even then, I don't see how one can manage 30000 or so tax every quater?
The business is profitable, it's just not always possible to collect money before the payments are demanded, well, with our business anyway.
And by the time you've collected your share, your suppliers have put on stop credit, and taxation office is threatening you life or death.
So, with 25% is a definite DEATH

it doesn't matter how much it is since you only ever pay it after you've collected it .. what sort of system are you using? Hire a book keeper, or if you have one, replace him/her with one who knows what they are doing.

The only affect increased GST may have is it will in the short term decrease demand for your products ... again, I say short term because in the long term, the consumer will get used to it and life will move one.

I'm not here advocating increasing GST to 25%, but your arguments for not doing so aren't making a lot of sense to me.

no John, nothing to do with bookeeper, neither with understanding money vs GST...
you simply don't have any idea what small business is.
If it was so simple, many of these businesses would be operating until now, but what we are seeing is more and more closing down
Because rent, taxes and wages just don't make sense anymore, and you defend increase?
Short term?
Yeah, I will see you

you claimed not possible to pay the money before you've collected it, not me.

it's just not always possible to collect money before the payments are demanded

By the way Torpedo, I've been in small business of one form or another since I was 27 ... so don't give me crap about I have no idea what small business is. Learn to manage your money instead of looking for excuses.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75097 Gender:	Re: Truebelieverland Reply #118 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:40pm Torpedo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:34pm: Because rent, taxes and wages just don't make sense anymore, and you defend increase? John Smith wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:30pm: I'm not here advocating increasing GST to 25%, but your arguments for not doing so aren't making a lot of sense to me.
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Torpedo

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Re: Truebelieverland
Reply #119 - Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:42pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 9:39pm: