Australian Politics Forum - Our relationship with the Environment

perceptions_now Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11694 Perth WA Gender:	Re: Our relationship with the Environment Reply #30 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 11:01am greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 4:27pm: http://www.sott.net/image/image/s5/113579/full/global_warming_on_mars_postcar.jp... So Greggery, what do these pictures of Mars reveal about the Mars Climate & why?
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muso

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Re: Our relationship with the Environment
Reply #31 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 11:24am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:52am:

Not a clue, don't know what the seasons on Mars are called or when they take place.
But given that one is July and the other August, the summer/winter excuse you used with the tree photo doesn't work on the Mars photos.

Ahem. For a start, the Martian year is about 2 Earth years (687 Earth days). Earth-based calendar months don't line up with seasons on Mars.

The Martian Southern summer coincides with Perihelion - the closest point to the sun. The Perihelion is 28% closer to the sun than the Aphelion. With the Earth, it's only 4 %.

The point I was making is that you can't just take two snapshots of Mars 30 years apart and draw any useful conclusions.

In fact, there is no evidence of any decadal global warming pattern on Mars.

Because of its orbital fluctuations, the climate of Mars is very chaotic.

The graph shows a few other observations which puts paid to the rumour that Mars is undergoing decadal scale global warming.

I didn't explain this straight away, because as usual, I wanted to see how silly the responses would be.

If you want to know more about Mars, join the Mars Society of Australasia. I've been a member for the last 10 years (as of March this year, or just after the first Mars Exploration Rover landed).
http://marssociety.org.au/

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« Last Edit: Jan 27^th, 2014 at 11:40am by muso »

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muso

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Re: Our relationship with the Environment
Reply #32 - Jan 27^th, 2014 at 11:35am

perceptions_now wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 11:01am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 4:27pm:

http://www.sott.net/image/image/s5/113579/full/global_warming_on_mars_postcar.jp...

So Greggery, what do these pictures of Mars reveal about the Mars Climate & why?

I will be having my eyelids held open with surgical tape so I don't miss any of that response

(Marg Downey - SBS spoof announcer in Fast Forward)

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Our relationship with the Environment
Reply #33 - Jan 28^th, 2014 at 8:59am

muso wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 11:24am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:52am:

Not a clue, don't know what the seasons on Mars are called or when they take place.
But given that one is July and the other August, the summer/winter excuse you used with the tree photo doesn't work on the Mars photos.

Ahem. For a start, the Martian year is about 2 Earth years (687 Earth days). Earth-based calendar months don't line up with seasons on Mars.

The Martian Southern summer coincides with Perihelion - the closest point to the sun. The Perihelion is 28% closer to the sun than the Aphelion. With the Earth, it's only 4 %.

The point I was making is that you can't just take two snapshots of Mars 30 years apart and draw any useful conclusions.

In fact, there is no evidence of any decadal global warming pattern on Mars.

Because of its orbital fluctuations, the climate of Mars is very chaotic.

The graph shows a few other observations which puts paid to the rumour that Mars is undergoing decadal scale global warming.

I didn't explain this straight away, because as usual, I wanted to see how silly the responses would be.

If you want to know more about Mars, join the Mars Society of Australasia. I've been a member for the last 10 years (as of March this year, or just after the first Mars Exploration Rover landed).
http://marssociety.org.au/

I'm aware of the orbital period of Mars ( and have been since I was a child). Nasa disagrees with you about the global warming on Mars.
Given that the seasons on Mars are about twice the length of seasons on Earth, a range of a month between the photos would/should put them both within the same season so the 30 year gap is a very good indicator for any changes.

Something is causing the surface temps on Mars to rise, and something is causing the surface temps on Earth to rise. Simply logic (Occam's Razor???) would suggest that there is a link between the two events.

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Our relationship with the Environment
Reply #34 - Feb 5^th, 2014 at 3:33pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 8:59am:

muso wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 11:24am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:52am:

Not a clue, don't know what the seasons on Mars are called or when they take place.
But given that one is July and the other August, the summer/winter excuse you used with the tree photo doesn't work on the Mars photos.

Ahem. For a start, the Martian year is about 2 Earth years (687 Earth days). Earth-based calendar months don't line up with seasons on Mars.

The Martian Southern summer coincides with Perihelion - the closest point to the sun. The Perihelion is 28% closer to the sun than the Aphelion. With the Earth, it's only 4 %.

The point I was making is that you can't just take two snapshots of Mars 30 years apart and draw any useful conclusions.

In fact, there is no evidence of any decadal global warming pattern on Mars.

Because of its orbital fluctuations, the climate of Mars is very chaotic.

The graph shows a few other observations which puts paid to the rumour that Mars is undergoing decadal scale global warming.

I didn't explain this straight away, because as usual, I wanted to see how silly the responses would be.

If you want to know more about Mars, join the Mars Society of Australasia. I've been a member for the last 10 years (as of March this year, or just after the first Mars Exploration Rover landed).
http://marssociety.org.au/

I'm aware of the orbital period of Mars ( and have been since I was a child). Nasa disagrees with you about the global warming on Mars.
Given that the seasons on Mars are about twice the length of seasons on Earth, a range of a month between the photos would/should put them both within the same season so the 30 year gap is a very good indicator for any changes.

Something is causing the surface temps on Mars to rise, and something is causing the surface temps on Earth to rise. Simply logic (Occam's Razor???) would suggest that there is a link between the two events.

The concept of a year and seasons is totally different.. plus with a smaller mass and closer relationship to Jupiter and Saturn I wouldn't recommend getting too excited with comparisons to earth... how many moons does mars have btw?

On earth carbon falls into and comes back out of a carbon sink called water which is no small difference between the two planets Cool

-->the differences are exponentially large!!

Saying that I find the concept of a link between both planets experiencing rising temps obviously interesting if infact it's a fact... and wouldn't mind getting an answer as to why!!

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Our relationship with the Environment
Reply #35 - Feb 5^th, 2014 at 3:49pm

mantra wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 8:23pm:

muso wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 5:04pm:

I'm not very inventive when it comes to mindless name calling... er testicles deprived of physical sensation (will that do?)

Join the club Muso. When an inarticulate poster bombards me with obscenities instead of addressing the content of my post - I draw a total blank trying to come up with something equally as unpleasant to say back to them. Some of us just haven't got it in us.

muso wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 5:10pm:

The following picture shows a tree taken in 2003 and 2007 (right). I guess that you'd state (in your capacity as honest greggary - an unbiased observer of course) that this proves global cooling Grin Grin

Like Aussie - I don't understand the science and try to stay out of the GW debates, but your pictures of the extreme changes to a tree is something I can recognise in my own garden, although not to the same degree. The seasons are coming later and don't seem as intense as they used to be aside from this summer which has seemed a lot hotter than perhaps the last 5 summers, but certainly not the hottest summer we've had in the last couple of decades.

The plants are flowering later and although this is a little thing, when the bees arrived around Christmas - there were no flowers in bloom and I found dozens of dying bees.

Perhaps there was a simple explanation, but the tiny closed buds the bees were trying to pollinate were at least 6 weeks behind in development so they couldn't access the nectar. Birds are nesting later also - so I can see the changes, but perhaps this is a natural occurrence every hundred or even a thousand years.

We don't have records going back far enough to confirm this though

.

It's always a measurement problem in science: the uncertainty principle!

Is a piece of string 10.1 cm or 10.0905847328 cm Cheesy

???

Some would say who cares... such people are flim-flam men.

Who says a 0.6 degree rise in temp means nothing special: it depends how fast that happens: you are measuring two dimensions there - the temp and the time taken for the temp change- and errors of measurement can occur in both dimensions.

Imagine you have significantly more dimensions than this and you can see fairly quickly things become impossible to grasp!!

Pretty soon the only conclusions to dealing with complex systems are pieces of advice like: "Never try to pick the top and bottom of the market."

All questions are valid: I listen to greggy trying to simplify the picture because that is scientific method--> trying to boil down what is seemingly complex to being less so!

Cheesy

Ideas come from conversation: the ideas stop when the rules of conversation stop!!

Attack with ideas I say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cool

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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