Australian Politics Forum - beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?

freediver

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #195 - Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am

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You tell me FD - how did Muhammad and his merry band of a few dozen destitutes manage to con his way into becoming supreme political and military leader over the whole city - including the powerful jewish tribes?

Like I said, he talked his way in, then turned into a mass murderer. When he was weak, he was polite. As soon as he gained any power he turned into a murderous lunatic. He was invited in to end the feuding. He did this by expelling and/or slaughtering all three Jewish tribes so he could turn it into a Muslim stronghold from which to rob and eventually slaughter the Meccans.

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Were they really that stupid?

Apparently. They stood by and watched as he expelled one Jewish tribe on the weakest of pret-texts. Then another. The last one ended up dead. People fall for this kind of thing occasionally. They don't want the evil to be real, but they allow it to become real. For the most part they were probably just scared, and got taken by surprise. Muhammed was initially seen as an independent between various pagan Arab and Jewish interests. They would not have expected him to so quickly come to represent the interests of everyone but the Jewish tribes, and turn into a murdering thug. It's a typical tale of the rise of poweful warmongerers throughout history, from Gengis Khan to Hitler. The only difference with Muhammed is that instead of realising what an asshole he was after he died, the Arabs went on killing anyone who said he wasn't God's messenger on earth. Kind of like the caged monkeys and the banana trick.

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Or maybe they actually liked him and believed in his cause?

They didn't. That's why Muhammed slaughtered them. Obviously he didn't kill his own minions. Only the people who stood in his way. Most of the Jews refused to accept as their prophet, despite him politely informing them that he was their prophet and that they would meet a nasty fate if they refused to accept him. He was a hit with the pagans, but not the Jews, so he got rid of the Jews. It really is that simple.

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Not the poor schmucks who lost their heads of course - at least not when they decided to conspire against him.

Yes, three entire tribes of Jews. All traitors and conspirators.

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The question you should be asking about that though is how Muhammad had such strong backing by all sides when passing judgment on the Qurayza?

First they came for the Qurayza, and they did nothing about it because they were not a Qurayza. Honestly Gandalf. Abu even boasted about how skillful Muhammed was with the divide and conquer routine. You appear to think it makes him a righteous man. If you sucked it up and were objective, you would admit he was the biggest schemer of all.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #196 - Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 9:49am

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am:

He was invited in to end the feuding. He did this by expelling and/or slaughtering all three Jewish tribes so he could turn it into a Muslim stronghold from which to rob and eventually slaughter the Meccans.

Keep it up FD, this is getting hilarious.

He ended the feuding by mediating a peace - and united all the people under the constitution of Medina. He then directed two successful defenses of the city against aggressors - against all the odds. Apparently the Medinese saw something in him, and that seems to have saved them from Meccan aggression. The slaughter of the Qurayza, as well as the expulsion of the other two tribes happened well after these feuds had ended and the Medinese had pledged loyalty to Muhammad.

So please at the very least, get your timeframes sorted.

Also, what slaughter of Meccans are you referring to?

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am:

They didn't. That's why Muhammed slaughtered them. Obviously he didn't kill his own minions.

His "own minions" numbered no more than a few dozen disheveled refugees fleeing their homes. Clearly a great number of the arabs who accepted him in and converted believed something in him - otherwise they could have just booted him out right?

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am:

He was a hit with the pagans, but not the Jews, so he got rid of the Jews. It really is that simple.

yes very simple FD. Except a little while ago you were screaming about how he wasn't a hit with the pagans, and that he slaughtered them all. I think you even mentioned the "g" word (with no evidence of course). Maybe this is like the non-existent slaughter of Meccans you mentioned above. Next week you'll probably be talking about how much of a hit he was with the Meccans (which he was).

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am:

Yes, three entire tribes of Jews. All traitors and conspirators.

Only one tribe lost their heads. There were incidentally about a dozen other tribes that evidently weren't traitors and lived on amongst the muslims.

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am:

Abu even boasted about how skillful Muhammed was with the divide and conquer routine.

I'm guessing, no he didn't - given your track record with "what Abu said".

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You appear to think it makes him a righteous man. If you sucked it up and were objective, you would admit he was the biggest schemer of all.

I'll be objective and say you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever for your version of history that Muhammad came into Medina with a pre-meditated plan to ethnically cleanse jews and con/terrorise everyone else into submission. The fact that you need to invoke the old "even Abu said" routine as literally the only piece of non-evidence for this story says it all really.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Pete Waldo

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #197 - Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 10:50pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 7:40pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:20am:

No you did not.

No i did not.

link to post ?

Here you go Yadda - to be honest I'm not that surprised you forgot about it - as it was a remarkable and rare moment of clarity from you:

What you really mean is you caught Yadda in a moment of weakness in which he would temporarily swallow your taqiyyah. As I pointed out, your taqiyyah on abrogation is exposed as being exactly that, by many Islamic websites.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390714478/182#182

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 7:40pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 16^th, 2012 at 10:59pm:

gandalf,

Thank you for the quote [that you posted] and for the information which it contains.

What it states, makes a lot of sense to me.

Personally i accept that the concept of Koranic 'abrogation' was always a fabricated 'device', which has been used by moslems [and which, imo, was 'manufactured' precisely to be used by moslems], to serve the interests of moslems - at 'this' moment in time.

And i concede that the clerics of all religions have done this.

If they see a 'need', clerics will 'move mountains' try to bend the meaning of scripture, or to give a new interpretation of scripture, which can be fashioned to serve the secular and worldly [but 'righteous'] 'interests', ...of, the clerics.

Politics, even religious politics, is 'a greasy pole'!! ...imo.

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« Last Edit: Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 10:58pm by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an? Reply #198 - Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 10:59pm Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 10:50pm: What you really mean is you caught Yadda in a moment of weakness in which he swallowed your taqiyyah. I know things get pretty heated on this forum, but I'm pretty sure Gandalf was in no physical danger because of his faith.
Back to top	Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm: Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act IP Logged

Pete Waldo

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #199 - Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 11:34pm

Stratos wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 10:59pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 10:50pm:

What you really mean is you caught Yadda in a moment of weakness in which he swallowed your taqiyyah.

I know things get pretty heated on this forum, but I'm pretty sure Gandalf was in no physical danger because of his faith.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390996044/15#15

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Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an? Reply #200 - Feb 24^th, 2014 at 6:50am Take that stratos - deceived by satan innit.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an? Reply #201 - Feb 24^th, 2014 at 7:37am polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 24^th, 2014 at 6:50am: Take that stratos - deceived by satan innit. Well it's either that or I must be an undercover Muslim.
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Yadda

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #202 - Feb 24^th, 2014 at 10:00am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 7:40pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:20am:

No you did not.

No i did not.

link to post ?

Here you go Yadda - to be honest I'm not that surprised you forgot about it - as it was a remarkable and rare moment of clarity from you:

Yadda wrote on Dec 16^th, 2012 at 10:59pm:

gandalf,

Thank you for the quote [that you posted] and for the information which it contains.

What it states, makes a lot of sense to me.

Personally i accept that the concept of Koranic 'abrogation' was always a fabricated 'device', which has been used by moslems [and which, imo, was 'manufactured' precisely to be used by moslems], to serve the interests of moslems - at 'this' moment in time.

And i concede that the clerics of all religions have done this.

If they see a 'need', clerics will 'move mountains' try to bend the meaning of scripture, or to give a new interpretation of scripture, which can be fashioned to serve the secular and worldly [but 'righteous'] 'interests', ...of, the clerics.

Politics, even religious politics, is 'a greasy pole'!! ...imo.

gandalf,

Thank you for the link.

And please read my words again, the section that i have highlighted from the link.

Yes, i believe abrogation is false, and abrogation is an intentional falsification which was fabricated by moslems.

[i concede my poor memory, of what i did say]

What i am saying [in the link post] is that Koranic 'abrogation' [in itself] is a fabricated 'device', which was used by moslems, to promote the most advantageous Koranic argument [from available multiple/differing Koranic arguments ], as was convenient to an occasion.

e.g.
And of course, i understand the Koran is perfect and inerrant [i speak as a moslem].

And when i am in an infidel jurisdiction i quote;

"Let there be no compulsion in religion...."
Koran 2.256

...because those words will convey a belief into the heart of the infidel, which is to my advantage and to the advantage of all moslems.

But when i am in an Sharia jurisdiction i abide with [i.e. i live with] [or when i am engaged in Jihad 'operations' against the kuffar, i quote];

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85

...because in this place [or during Jihad 'operations'], i am seeking to make the infidel subject to the will of Allah [and subject to my will, as Allah's proxy!].

+++

gandalf,

Why would a body of moslems wish for, or believe that Allah would 'strike out' [abrogate] verses from his inerrant Koran, when their judicious selection and use of a verse, can so effectively disarm and put an [uninformed and naive] infidel 'on the back foot' ?

The example above [the contrast between what is conveyed in Koran 2.256 and Koran 3.85], is the mirror [imo] of the duplicity which is expressed, and which is in accord with 'the spirit' of another Koran verse...

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"
Koran 2.106

The Koran does not contain contradictory ideas [i speak as Allah], i [Allah] add a new verse to the Koran as is convenient [for Mohammed's use] for a particular occasion/purpose.

The Koran does not contain contradictory ideas [i speak as a moslem], i [as a moslem] just select the verse from the Koran which is most convenient to this occasion/purpose.

And this duality which is found throughout ISLAM, plainly demonstrates how moslems, can lawfully promote duplicitous views, with one lawful Koranic 'principle' being conveyed for 'this' occasion, with another [and contradictory] lawful Koranic 'principle' being conveyed for 'that' occasion.

+++

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1355591493/0#0
Quote:

I won't concede my 'error' [to you], because as always, we are talking at cross purposes.

You want to highlight the [supposed] error and the 'misunderstanding' of the intricacies of 'abrogation' by a disbeliever.

While i am more interested in exposing the role [the function] which 'abrogation' plays, in determining the nature of the behaviour which moslems engage in, in their ongoing and never ending conflict with disbelievers [...attention to which, is precisely what moslems want avoid].

You want the argument to be about my [supposed] malicious and intentional error [in 'misunderstanding' a virtuous and benign ISLAM].

While i want the argument to be about ISLAM's undeclared [and intentional] malicious intent.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Pete Waldo

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #203 - Feb 25^th, 2014 at 3:58am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 24^th, 2014 at 6:50am:

Take that stratos - deceived by satan innit.

Your seeking comfort with the self-proclaimed Godless is not surprising. Like the "Our prophet, our honour" thread in the upper section that relies on such as atheists, agnostics, communists and an obviously, woefully uninformed, Hindu, that all laud praises on Muhammad. Also no surprise.

Muslims believe in "Allah" and "Shatan".
Satan is the opposer of God. The opposite of God.
Just as Muhammad was the opposite of the sinless Messiah Yeshua.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Just as Muhammad's anti-religion is the opposite of the Gospel. A specifically ANTI-Gospel.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/index.htm
Muhammad's anti-religion is specifically ANTICHRIST as defined in scripture.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm
It should be easy for you to see who serve through adopted, adapted and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals, gand. Through DISbelief in the WHOLE SUBJECT of Gospel.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm
God gave us all the free will to choose. Your choice
, your fate.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

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« Last Edit: Feb 25^th, 2014 at 4:04am by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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freediver

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #204 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:27pm

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He ended the feuding by mediating a peace

Sure. It was peaceful after he slaughtered 800 Jewish POWs. And the people showed him respect.

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and united all the people under the constitution of Medina

Except those treacherous Jews of course. Except pretty much everyone who would not bow down to him.

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The slaughter of the Qurayza, as well as the expulsion of the other two tribes happened well after these feuds had ended and the Medinese had pledged loyalty to Muhammad.

And also after Muhammed had started preaching anti-Jewish propaganda in the streets.

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yes very simple FD. Except a little while ago you were screaming about how he wasn't a hit with the pagans

Good point. He was a hit with some of them. The rest died rather quickly. It basically came down to how successful he was at converting them. When he was having no luck eradicating paganism peacefully, he used the sword.

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I think you even mentioned the "g" word (with no evidence of course).

There is plenty of evidence of genocide from within Islam. They documented it.

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Only one tribe lost their heads.

The other two were kicked out. What is your point?

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There were incidentally about a dozen other tribes that evidently weren't traitors and lived on amongst the muslims.

Muhammed was having more success converting them. He had far less luck with the Jews, so he got rid of them.

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I'll be objective and say you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever for your version of history that Muhammad came into Medina with a pre-meditated plan to ethnically cleanse jews

I did not say it was pre-meditated. He made it up as he went along. He originally planned for the Jews to convert to Islam. He thought he would be real popular with them. He wasn't. So he got rid of them by whatever means were available.

Quote:

The fact that you need to invoke the old "even Abu said" routine as literally the only piece of non-evidence for this story says it all really.

It is a standard political and military tactic Gandalf. If he did not use it he would be an idiot. Not sure why you would even bother pretending that a guy who slaughtered 800 Jewish POWs in one day would consider divide and conquer to be beneath him. My guess is you are just ignorant of your own religion.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #205 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 8:54pm

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:27pm:

Sure. It was peaceful after he slaughtered 800 Jewish POWs. And the people showed him respect.

lol no, again timeframes FD. We are talking about before any slaughtering happened. Muhammad was at the time destitute with his tiny band of followers, and the Aws and the Khazraj invited him in to mediate a bitter dispute that was tearing the city apart. Everyone, including the jews were happy to have him, and it paid off since a couple of years later he successfully led the defence against Meccan aggression. All this happened before anyone was kicked out, before anyone was slaughtered.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:27pm:

Good point. He was a hit with some of them. The rest died rather quickly. It basically came down to how successful he was at converting them. When he was having no luck eradicating paganism peacefully, he used the sword.

Naturally. By the way, any progress on that "genocide" of Meccans yet?

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:27pm:

Muhammed was having more success converting them. He had far less luck with the Jews, so he got rid of them.

No FD, about a dozen other *JEWISH* tribes - that stayed and lived on with Muhammad. Its said that Muhammad's last order before he died was to repay a jew he owed money to. There was known to be jews amongst the muslim army that captured Jerusalem.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #206 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm

Quote:

lol no, again timeframes FD. We are talking about before any slaughtering happened. Muhammad was at the time destitute with his tiny band of followers, and the Aws and the Khazraj invited him in to mediate a bitter dispute that was tearing the city apart. Everyone, including the jews were happy to have him, and it paid off since a couple of years later he successfully led the defence against Meccan aggression.

You mean he used the city as a base from which to rob Meccan caravans, then used the city to defend himself against the Meccans when they got pissed off about it?

None of this contradicts my take on the events. Muhammed used politics when he needed to. He slaughtered people when he felt the need. That came later, when he was able to. You don't just start killing people one day then find yourself leading an empire. Not sure why you think this sets Muhammed apart from every other warmonger in history.

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Naturally. By the way, any progress on that "genocide" of Meccans yet?

Sure. Here you go.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values#Collec...

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No FD, about a dozen other *JEWISH* tribes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina

There were three prominent Jewish tribes that inhabited the city into the 7th century AD: the Banu Qaynuqa, the Banu Qurayza, and Banu Nadir.

Surprise, surprise, Muhammed got rid of all three of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_in_Medina

In the course of Muhammad proselytizing in Mecca, he viewed Christians and Jews (both of whom he referred to as "People of the Book") as natural allies, part of the Abrahamic religions, sharing the core principles of his teachings, and anticipated their acceptance and support. Muslims, like Jews, were at that time praying towards Jerusalem. In the Constitution of Medina, Muhammad demanded the Jews' political loyalty in return for religious and cultural autonomy.[6]

The Jewish clans however kept aloof from Islam though in the course of time there were a few converts from them.[7] After his migration to Medina, Muhammad's attitude towards Christians and Jews changed. Norman Stillman states:[8]

During this fateful time, fraught with tension after the Hijra [migration to Medina], when Muhammad encountered contradiction, ridicule and rejection from the Jewish scholars in Medina, he came to adopt a radically more negative view of the people of the Book who had received earlier scriptures. This attitude was already evolving in the third Meccan period as the Prophet became more aware of the antipathy between Jews and Christians and the disagreements and strife amongst members of the same religion. The Qur'an at this time states that it will "relate [correctly] to the Children of Israel most of that about which they differ" (XXVII, 76).

In other words, Muhammed was pissed off that the "treacherous" Jews would not bow down to him. The lucky ones escaped with their life.

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Its said that Muhammad's last order before he died was to repay a jew he owed money to.

Would that by any chance be the Jew he tortured by lighting a fire on his stomach to get at his Jew gold? Seriously, how far are you willing to go to try to spin this? Would Muhammed only be a bad person if he had slaughtered every Jew he ever came across?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Pete Waldo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 503 U.S. Gender:	Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an? Reply #207 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 3:07am freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm: Surprise, surprise, Muhammed got rid of all three of them. Gand will likely try to explain how privileged the other two tribes were, to be banished into the desert to die, rather than getting their heads cut off.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #208 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 8:12am

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

None of this contradicts my take on the events.

I have shown you multiple contradictions in your story - it took you 3 or 4 replies to finally understand that Muhammad didn't broker the peace after he started expelling and slaughtering jews as you kept trying to claim. Just simple historical facts here FD.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

Sure. Here you go.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values#Collec...

Gee thats great FD - I ask for evidence for a particular genocide of Meccans, and you give me a link about expulsions and killing of jews. Since you are such a connoisseur of wikipedia, why don't you look it up and see if you can find this mysterious Meccan genocide. Actually, save yourself the trouble, because you won't find it, because it didn't exist. When Muhammad conquered Mecca, there were exactly 12 Meccans killed. Probably fewer than that were killed in the raids he conducted on Meccan caravans before that. There was no "genocide" of Meccans like you claimed.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

In other words, Muhammed was pissed off that the "treacherous" Jews would not bow down to him. The lucky ones escaped with their life.

As I said, there were about a dozen jewish tribes that remained in Medina until long after Muhammad's death.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

Would that by any chance be the Jew he tortured by lighting a fire on his stomach to get at his Jew gold?

even non-muslims with half a brain know that story is fake.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Stratos

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Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Reply #209 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 8:24am

Pete Waldo wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 3:07am:

Gand will likely try to explain how privileged the other two tribes were, to be banished into the desert to die, rather than getting their heads cut off.

Yeah, only the good religions mercifully kill the babies of their enemies. I wonder increasingly often how you deal with your cognitive dissonance.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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