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Islam gives far more explicit licences for killing.

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I believe one of them has already given an explanation - that it is an historical account and not meant to be an example to be followed, by any of the Abrahamic religions (with the exception of Islam, of course). It is not reasonable to project your inability to understand this onto others.

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It is obviously not part of Christian doctrine.

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Yet I expect both of them would reject the claim that their religion holds this example as one to be followed (at least one has already pointed this out to you in this thread), rather than one to consign to history. Of course, you would have to actually ask them their opinion to find that out.

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That's good, because I thought I was going to have to resort to common sense again, and I remember how poorly that went down last time.

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I don't think Christian doctrine would say anything at all on the subject. Again, this is Islam justifying itself by redefining what other religions are.

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They do reject it. Neither religion promotes warmongering the way Islam does. There is a huge gulf between them. One merely has to compare the examples set by Jesus vs Muhammed to see this for the case of Christianity, and it is nothing but transparently misleading Islamic spin to claim otherwise.

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Yes, it is hard work to find doctrinal justifications in Christianity. It is easy in Islam, because that is what Muhammed did. He raped and pillaged. This is no more absurd than clamining that the justifications used by the 9/11 terrorists are reflective of Islam as a whole. Are you suggesting that after the "formative" years Christianity changed?

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Muhammed raped and slaughtered his way across Arabia. There is no other way you can spin this and keep a straight face.

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Yes there is. Islam directly sanctions both rape and pillage.

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Crap. Muhammed and his successors lead many overtly aggressive wars. All it took was for Muhammed to have a dream that someone was going to get him, and the rape and pillage started all over again. Muslims claim this is defence, but you have to believe it before it exists. Any rational analysis defines it as aggression.

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Islam commands the slaughtering of POWs. Islam commands the wholesale capture and rape of women. Islam commands the wholesale theft of land and property. Islam commands forced mass migrations. Islam commands ethnic cleansing. Only a Muslim could attempt to spin this as restraint and keep a straight face. Even by contemporary 7th century Arabian standards Muhammed set the bar very low. His success is not attributable to taking some kind of moral high ground, but by being more irrational, hostile and murderous than everyone else. He is far closer to Hitler than Jesus.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 7:48pm:


Actually this is specifically a commandment for the Israelistes from God

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:


No, really we haven't. Once again, please quote the islamic texts that rape and pillage.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:


For God's sake, I know you're not that stupid FD.

Once again, where is the islamic (your word) to slaughter POWs.

The specific actions of Muhammad as head of a particular state in a particular place and time are not "commands" for muslims to do the same.

The Quran itself orders prisoners to be either freed or ransomed, and until either of these can be achieved, to be well fed and treated humanely. So thats how retarded your claim is.

And while you're at it, feel free to quote the islamic text (chapter and verse) that "commands" (your word, again) all that other crap you mentioned.

Or you can be a man and admit you are completely full of sh*t

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:29pm:


Now I am going to stick your nose in this repeatedly, until you admit to the truth, as I've had just about enough Islamic dissimulation. For pity's sake, the Quran has a whole chapter titled: "Spoils of War Booty" in which Muhammad's Muhammad-serving alter-ego "Allah" awards Muhammad 1/5 of all of the property stolen from others through imperialistic conquest. Not so unlike a Mafia Don.
http://www.brotherpete.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm
Here's an example in practice:

Qur'an 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."

Of course it is obvious that it was Satan and his people, that took down Yahweh's "People of the Scripture Book", and beheaded the innocent, peaceful, faithful Banu Qurayza Jewish farm boys, and their dads and grandpas - who never struck a blow - while raping and sexually enslaving their little sisters, moms and grandmothers, and stealing the fruit of their labor of generations.
Since Muhammad and his boys didn't work for a living they had to steal the property of others to support themselves. Just like the Mafia, while even sharing the same penalty for leaving the cult - death.

Ishaq:475.....When he called for violent efforts we made them. The Prophet's command is obeyed for he is truly believed. He will give us victory, glory, and a life of ease.



Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900

boys

and men."

rape
1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.

Sahih Muslim: "It is permissible to have sexual intercourse with a captive woman after she is purified (of menses or delivery) in case she has a husband, her marriage is abrogated after she becomes captive.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence.  (Bukhari Book #34, Hadith #432)

Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."  (Book #59, Hadith #459)

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."  (Book #62, Hadith #137)

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That while he was sitting with the Prophet a man from the Ansar came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get slave girls from the war captives and we love property; what do you think about coitus interruptus?" Allah's Apostle said, "Do you do that? It is better for you not to do it, for there is no soul which Allah has ordained to come into existence but will be created."  (Book #77, Hadith #600)

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relation with them without impregnating them. So they asked the Prophet about coitus interrupt us. The Prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection." Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Sa'id saying that the Prophet said, 'No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it."  (Book #93, Hadith #506)

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:14am:




Sometimes it is worthwhile reading your posts Pete - for pure entertainment value.

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I usually ask Muslims to do this. They are happy enough to explain that it is their right to have sex with sex slaves that they capture in battle, and that there is no punishment for rape in the context of either marriage or sexual slavery.

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I think it was the angel Gaybriel who told him to do it. I am sure you are familiar with it.

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Are they a righteous example for Muslims to follow? Or just another barbaric 7th century Arab warmonger whose deeds are better left in the past? This seems to be the key point here, and one that you refuse to even acknowledge. You bring up old testament Jewish Kings, and even Roman Emperors, as supposed examples of Christian doctrine, yet you backpedal when it comes to the examples set by Muhammed himself. Why? Are you embarrassed about it?

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Other Muslims I have discussed this with added enslaved and slaughtered to the list. Do you think that Muhammed violated Islamic law? Is Muhammed generally considered to be above the law? Is that why he got the Jews to do it for him? Perhaps he thought of himself as Pontious Pilate for a brief moment.

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It is the claim of Muhammed himself and many Muslims. BTW, you have to feed your slaves or they won't get any work done. No point beating a dead horse. Is the entire 1400 year history of the Islamic slave trade some kind of misunderstanding?

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I am no Islamic scholar. Nor do I see it as my role to interpret these texts for Muslims, they way you and other Muslims seem to enjoy doing for Christians and Jews (another example set by Muhammed). I do my best to keep up with what the Muslims say here. Many of the past discussions include the relevant Islamic texts. The wiki is full of links. You are welcome to challenge any of the points made.

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Yet what he says is true. Muhammed and his men killed all the adult men and raped the women, despite this tribe actually helping them in their war effort. It is a classic example of collective punishment of the most brutal kind - another nasty example Muhammed set for Muslims.

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Obviously they try to put a positive spin on it, just as you do. For example, it is not rape because Allah has already given his consent, and the consent of the woman involved is inconsequential. But it is still rape, sanctioned by Islam, and demonstrated by Muhammed.

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Is it a righteous example for Muslims to follow? Or just another barbaric 7th century Arab warmonger whose deeds are better left in the past?

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Is it a righteous example for Muslims to follow? Or just another barbaric 7th century Arab warmonger whose deeds are better left in the past?

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Of course. They have options. They can enslave them. They can rape them. They can sell them. They can impose a forced mass migration. They can convert them. They can steal everything they own. They can confiscate the land, but put the people back to work on it and charge them a 50% tax on everything they produce. Whatever is in the interests of spreading the empire, and hence Islam.

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And their entire extended family? So you do support collective punishment and the execution of POW's, but like all other Muslims, you try to spin it into something else?

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Executing 800 people in one day, and taking their wives as sex slaves? Nice. And here I was thinking you were some kind of progressive Muslim.

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Obviously you would spin it that way. You are a Muslim. But the reality is that they were prisoners of war.

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Muhammed got Jews to pass the judgement and carry out the actual executions. It helped prevent another backlash among the Jews. It's a bit like Pontious Pilate, except that Muhammed played the role of both raving lunatic and pliant bureaucrat.

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There is direct evidence that they supported Muhammed. There is no genuine evidence that they attacked Muhammed.