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Because it might work against their interests in most places. Because they might be ideologically opposed to democracy itself.

I was trying to be fair Gandalf. That is exactly what I was asking for. Was there only one pro-democracy poster that you are aware of? Do you know if it was a Muslim behind it, or if any Muslims spoke out and specifically mentioned democracy?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 8:59am:


I also found it quite strange that Gandalf would project Islamic ideas that he himself claims to reject onto non-Muslims who have no rational reason to hold them (and every reason to oppose creeping Islamisation via Muslims killing people in the name of Islam). The spiel about Muslims having a "right" to execute apostates because it only applies to "themselves" (it is a racist law) came out of the blue. As far as I can tell Gandalf made it up on the spot.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:56am:





gandalf,

Are you pretending to be the uninformed, naive moslem again - to a non-moslem audience [i.e. FD] ?

I would suggest that you definitely are, doing that.




FD,

Did you know, that gandalf clearly does not know, that the four-finger salute [in Egypt] indicates solidarity with the Muslim Brotherhood ?





IMAGE....




IMAGE....



Q.
Who is it that [clearly many of] those moslem street protesters [in those images] are supporting ?

Q.
Are those moslem street protesters, 'protesting' in support of Democracy and freedom ?

Do you really, really, think so ???



Google;
Egypt, four-finger salute shows solidarity with Muslim Brotherhood

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Actually, at first I wanted to know whether there were any at all. You found one. I wanted to know if that was it. It helps to place it in context.

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The way they missed the beheading poster?

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I think it would be naive to assume that. That is why I asked for more direct evidence.

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I think you will find I did the opposite. Freedom is necessary for democracy to function properly, but that is about it.

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Let's not exaggerate Gandalf. I think there were more than half a dozen people at the protest.

Unanimous? Is this another example of Muslims changing their mind about what they really think?

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm:


The context is a pro-democracy rally - as per all the pro-democracy symbols - or are you still insisting that calling for freedom, justice, peace and anti-military coup doesn't symbolise pro democracy? I really don't envy you trying to keep this gig up FD.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm:


Oh, is that you attempting to paint me as a defender of the violent protests in Sydney? That protest was organized by a known fringe extremist group who probably insisted on having beheading placards.

Attempting to portray that gigantic pro-democracy banner as an aberration for those people who are otherwise all about freedom and justice and anti-military coup is pure comedy.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm:


Why would it be naive? Please help me understand this extraordinary feat mental gymnastics you are performing to reach this conclusion. 

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm:


Freedom is necessary for democracy, I get that. But isn't it also true that democracy is necessary for freedom? Think about it, how can you live in true freedom without democracy? How can you be talking about the need for freedom (and justice and peace) specifically in the context of a democratically elected government being overthrown by a military coup - and not be referring directly to the need for democracy??

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm:


The signature poster at that rally was a specific call for freedom. Still trying to work out how you can claim to have missed that message with a straight face.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:13pm:


By symbols I meant English words - words like freedom, justice, peace, anti-military coup - and yes, democracy.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:13pm:


Thats the absurd lengths you will go to to smear these people. What possible relevance does the violent 2012 protests have to this protest? Why would you even mention it in the same sentence? Why would you compare violent thugs with these specifically anti-violent protestors?

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:13pm:


Thats 1. a completely useless and subjective thing to say (also you studiously avoided my requests to elaborate on this previously) and 2. it says little about whether he is pro-democracy and whether the protestors are pro-democracy (which they obviously are).

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:13pm:


You don't have to - thats completely beside the point. The only relevant point here is that they are protesting against an attack on democracy.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:13pm:


Thus your misunderstanding of the point becomes clear.

I never said these people are in any particular group, that was never the point. Please go through the entire debate (though it is completely unreasonable to assume they are not). My point from the very beginning has been that they are clearly protesting against the (undemocratic) removal of Morsi, therefore this particular protest is clearly a demonstration in support for Egyptian democracy.

I see now you are trying to delve into the underlying beliefs of these people and none-to-subtly painting a sinister picture of raving extremists who want to turn Egypt back to the 7th century. Who knows, maybe they really are raving fundamentalists who support execution for apostasy. Who the f*ck cares? It simply isn't relevant to the fact that in this protest they are clearly demonstrating in support of democracy. And your bizarre "oh there really isn't enough instances of the word 'democracy' to be sure" argument makes absolutely no sense - since democracy is the exact thing that works in these people's favour. Thus there is no logical rhyme or reason to maintain this ridiculous line that you can't be sure the protest was about democracy.

And since you have singularly failed to relate this in any way to "judging muslims by actions, not views" - despite repeated requests to do so, I will be moving this whole discussion to where it belongs - in the Egyptian protest thread.

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What happened there Gandalf?

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Oh. I thought you might mean the four finger cliteridectomy symbol the girl was using. It is a symbol of Morsi's election victory and a return to the good old days. Those other words have their own meaning. They are not symbols for democracy.

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Not the people holding the democracy placard. For all I know they are not even Muslims.

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The context was the number of placards supporting each, and how you would interpret that. I have explained to you many times now that it was for context.

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No it isn't. It creates a conflict where people who support democracy inadvertently support regressive social policies, and situation where people who otherwise hold divergent views share a common interest.

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I thought it was pretty obvious.

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Who is he? The one holding the democracy poster is obviously pro-democracy. For the rest, it is hard to tell how many might merely be pro-Morsi.

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No Gandalf. That is not the "only relevant point", but rather how you wish to spin it. It is like the Malaysia debate where you dreamt up all sorts of possibilities to avoid acknowledging the one that actually made sense, except at least in this case you have a plausible one.

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Half of the protestors may well be in support of Morsi retaking Egypt violently and installing himself as dictator. Protesting against an undemocratic event does not necessarily mean you support democracy in principle, and you do not have to be pro-democracy to rally against it.

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Sounds like you are talking about Morsi.

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That's what you have been arguing about for a few pages.

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An earlier post from Gandalf:

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Nice backpedaling there Gandalf. Very subtle. You have adopted an unusual strategy lately of backpedaling to the point where you deny ever having an opinion. Is this some new trick you learnt?

Tell me again, who is it that is trying to delve into the "underlying views" of the protestors?

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Now this is what a strawman looks like. What I asked is how they "clearly indicate that their concern is Egyptian democracy" (not your backpedaled version of 'being in' a protest that is "in support of" democracy).

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Obviously they support it when it is in their favour, and I have pointed this out to you countless times, but this misses the point entirely - a point you have demanded I explain over and over again, and which I have explained over and over again.