Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 12
Send Topic Print
The Myth of Human Progress (Read 25346 times)
Postmodern Trendoid III
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 10259
Gender: male
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #30 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:42am
 
Karnal wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:07am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 6:11pm:
The article is far too Marxist and pessimistic for my liking. We should remember that authors like this are projecting their morals and values into their writings and are not describing reality in itself.


That's right, Mistie. You'd never do anything that.

(The article is far too Marxist and pessimistic for my liking).


You have to admit, it's pretty much all doom and gloom.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sasha
New Member
*
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 9
Sydney
Gender: male
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #31 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:03am
 

It is a requirement to define what Human Progress first before drawing any conclusion, so therefore I disagree with every conclusion the OP has made from his Article. 

Is Human Progress a spiritual one?... Is it an advance in technology and human knowledge? Is it attaining Enlightenment?  Is it an individual selfish desire for self-fulfilment? So what is Human progress from your viewpoint OP?

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ImSpartacus2
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6913
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #32 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:21am
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:24am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 8:35pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:53am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:05am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:56am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 8:53pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 6:23pm:
The section on Nietzsche is correct, but it's been used as a "tag-on" to help bolster his argument. Nietzsche did indeed peer into the meaningless of the world; he did see that deep down there is no meaning whatsoever other than the meaning we humans attach to things. He then states that only a select few could honestly look at the meaningless and come out optimists. There are many who peer into the meaningless and cannot stand it; those who long for meaning but realise there is none. The author appears to have pierced the veil of Maya but come out a pessimist.
What a tragedy it is for humanity to have a ball and chain around its neck by the likes of a simpletons like you and soren and aquascoot.  


Perhaps you can unravel a problem in the op: how does the author escape illusionary ideals?
You're burying your head in the sand and still insisting (for ideological reasons) that it isn't happening and all of humanity will have to pay the price of your ignorance 


I am not personally insisting anything, I am analysing the op.

The op is troublesome because it argues that people live a life of illusion but then (the author) hints at seeing the truth. The distinction between truth and illusion, intelligible realm and the world of appearances, or noumena and phenomena is an old one, dating as far back as (at least) Plato. The author would be aware of this. I am interested here in how he believes he has, or can, escape illusion.


Do you even have a clue how stupid this looks.  The OP isn't presented here as a philosophical argument with propositions leading to a conclusion.  It assumes that from the things he is saying that you will recognise and empathise with what is being said and hopefully be motivated to act to do something about the positively dire circumstances that we are in. Its as if, just before a great battle, the general gives his army a speech to spur them on to fight and you interrupt and say "Ahhh, now wait a minute Mr General Sir, how do you know that you have or even can escape illusion".  Just ridiculous.  Understand what I'm saying?  Save your comments for the philosophy tutorial. But right now you need to think about the sheer danger and absolutely terrible situation humanity is in and what you can do to prevent the impending disaster.  Oh and BTW the OP isn't saying all   people live a life of illusion. It clearly acknowledges that some people do in fact see the truth and I think you can safely assume that the author puts himself in that category.   


I see. You just want to be pushed around by your emotions, rather than identifying and logically analysing reasoned arguments. Good luck with that.

No. The OP is not trying (either by logic or otherwise) to convince you of it's assertions.  It assumes that you already know (or on the road to knowing) that these things are happening and from there the writer is urging you to do something; namely stop being complacent, get off your bum and take control to change the situation before it's too late. That's why analysing it like it's some philosophical argument is absurd. 

Oh and BTW you don't think this post isn't a good indicator that you're being pushed around by your emotions, rather than logic and reasoned argument.
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:24am:
The article is far too Marxist and pessimistic for my liking.
. As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused. You might want to elaborate on that but before you do you need to realise that it's not logical to reject something simply on the basis that you don't agree with it ideologically.  It's either happening or not irrespective of your political ideology.  Same holds true with climate change; its either happening or not irrespective of whether you believe in capitalism or communism or anything else.  But I'm sure I don't have to explain that to you.   
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ImSpartacus2
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6913
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #33 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:30am
 
Sasha wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:03am:
It is a requirement to define what Human Progress first before drawing any conclusion, so therefore I disagree with every conclusion the OP has made from his Article. 

Is Human Progress a spiritual one?... Is it an advance in technology and human knowledge? Is it attaining Enlightenment?  Is it an individual selfish desire for self-fulfilment? So what is Human progress from your viewpoint OP?

Wow that's deep. Remind me to ask myself those very questions just before a 20 ton lorry is about to crash into me on my way to work. 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sasha
New Member
*
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 9
Sydney
Gender: male
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #34 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:36am
 
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:21am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:24am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 8:35pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:53am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:05am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:56am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 8:53pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 6:23pm:
The section on Nietzsche is correct, but it's been used as a "tag-on" to help bolster his argument. Nietzsche did indeed peer into the meaningless of the world; he did see that deep down there is no meaning whatsoever other than the meaning we humans attach to things. He then states that only a select few could honestly look at the meaningless and come out optimists. There are many who peer into the meaningless and cannot stand it; those who long for meaning but realise there is none. The author appears to have pierced the veil of Maya but come out a pessimist.
What a tragedy it is for humanity to have a ball and chain around its neck by the likes of a simpletons like you and soren and aquascoot.  


Perhaps you can unravel a problem in the op: how does the author escape illusionary ideals?
You're burying your head in the sand and still insisting (for ideological reasons) that it isn't happening and all of humanity will have to pay the price of your ignorance 


I am not personally insisting anything, I am analysing the op.

The op is troublesome because it argues that people live a life of illusion but then (the author) hints at seeing the truth. The distinction between truth and illusion, intelligible realm and the world of appearances, or noumena and phenomena is an old one, dating as far back as (at least) Plato. The author would be aware of this. I am interested here in how he believes he has, or can, escape illusion.


Do you even have a clue how stupid this looks.  The OP isn't presented here as a philosophical argument with propositions leading to a conclusion.  It assumes that from the things he is saying that you will recognise and empathise with what is being said and hopefully be motivated to act to do something about the positively dire circumstances that we are in. Its as if, just before a great battle, the general gives his army a speech to spur them on to fight and you interrupt and say "Ahhh, now wait a minute Mr General Sir, how do you know that you have or even can escape illusion".  Just ridiculous.  Understand what I'm saying?  Save your comments for the philosophy tutorial. But right now you need to think about the sheer danger and absolutely terrible situation humanity is in and what you can do to prevent the impending disaster.  Oh and BTW the OP isn't saying all   people live a life of illusion. It clearly acknowledges that some people do in fact see the truth and I think you can safely assume that the author puts himself in that category.   


I see. You just want to be pushed around by your emotions, rather than identifying and logically analysing reasoned arguments. Good luck with that.

No. The OP is not trying (either by logic or otherwise) to convince you of it's assertions.  It assumes that you already know (or on the road to knowing) that these things are happening and from there the writer is urging you to do something; namely stop being complacent, get off your bum and take control to change the situation before it's too late. That's why analysing it like it's some philosophical argument is absurd. 

 

Well, at least we can agree to disagree. If I am being urged to do something than I reserve my right to scrutinize it.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sasha
New Member
*
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 9
Sydney
Gender: male
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #35 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:38am
 
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:30am:
Sasha wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:03am:
It is a requirement to define what Human Progress first before drawing any conclusion, so therefore I disagree with every conclusion the OP has made from his Article. 

Is Human Progress a spiritual one?... Is it an advance in technology and human knowledge? Is it attaining Enlightenment?  Is it an individual selfish desire for self-fulfilment? So what is Human progress from your viewpoint OP?

Wow that's deep. Remind me to ask myself those very questions just before a 20 ton lorry is about to crash into me on my way to work. 


Well it is about Human progress, and I see very many different ideas that contradict each other. Let me know when it hits you.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Postmodern Trendoid III
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 10259
Gender: male
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #36 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:47am
 
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:21am:
No. The OP is not trying (either by logic or otherwise) to convince you of it's assertions.  It assumes that you already know (or on the road to knowing) that these things are happening and from there the writer is urging you to do something; namely stop being complacent, get off your bum and take control to change the situation before it's too late. That's why analysing it like it's some philosophical argument is absurd. 


So it's preaching to the converted. Pardon me for not blindly accepting its assertions.

Quote:
As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused. You might want to elaborate on that but before you do you need to realise that it's not logical to reject something simply on the basis that you don't agree with it ideologically.  It's either happening or not irrespective of your political ideology.  Same holds true with climate change; its either happening or not irrespective of whether you believe in capitalism or communism or anything else.  But I'm sure I don't have to explain that to you.   


You want me to elaborate? I thought you didn't want any analysis of the piece?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Postmodern Trendoid III
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 10259
Gender: male
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #37 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:49am
 
Sasha wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:03am:
It is a requirement to define what Human Progress first before drawing any conclusion, so therefore I disagree with every conclusion the OP has made from his Article. 

Is Human Progress a spiritual one?... Is it an advance in technology and human knowledge? Is it attaining Enlightenment?  Is it an individual selfish desire for self-fulfilment? So what is Human progress from your viewpoint OP?




True.
It appears, though, it is attacking material progress and the economics and environmental side effects that go with it. But it doesn't set up any alternative. It merely negates.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ImSpartacus2
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6913
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #38 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:51am
 
Sasha wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:36am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:21am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:24am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 8:35pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:53am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:05am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:56am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 8:53pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 6:23pm:
The section on Nietzsche is correct, but it's been used as a "tag-on" to help bolster his argument. Nietzsche did indeed peer into the meaningless of the world; he did see that deep down there is no meaning whatsoever other than the meaning we humans attach to things. He then states that only a select few could honestly look at the meaningless and come out optimists. There are many who peer into the meaningless and cannot stand it; those who long for meaning but realise there is none. The author appears to have pierced the veil of Maya but come out a pessimist.
What a tragedy it is for humanity to have a ball and chain around its neck by the likes of a simpletons like you and soren and aquascoot.  


Perhaps you can unravel a problem in the op: how does the author escape illusionary ideals?
You're burying your head in the sand and still insisting (for ideological reasons) that it isn't happening and all of humanity will have to pay the price of your ignorance 


I am not personally insisting anything, I am analysing the op.

The op is troublesome because it argues that people live a life of illusion but then (the author) hints at seeing the truth. The distinction between truth and illusion, intelligible realm and the world of appearances, or noumena and phenomena is an old one, dating as far back as (at least) Plato. The author would be aware of this. I am interested here in how he believes he has, or can, escape illusion.


Do you even have a clue how stupid this looks.  The OP isn't presented here as a philosophical argument with propositions leading to a conclusion.  It assumes that from the things he is saying that you will recognise and empathise with what is being said and hopefully be motivated to act to do something about the positively dire circumstances that we are in. Its as if, just before a great battle, the general gives his army a speech to spur them on to fight and you interrupt and say "Ahhh, now wait a minute Mr General Sir, how do you know that you have or even can escape illusion".  Just ridiculous.  Understand what I'm saying?  Save your comments for the philosophy tutorial. But right now you need to think about the sheer danger and absolutely terrible situation humanity is in and what you can do to prevent the impending disaster.  Oh and BTW the OP isn't saying all   people live a life of illusion. It clearly acknowledges that some people do in fact see the truth and I think you can safely assume that the author puts himself in that category.   


I see. You just want to be pushed around by your emotions, rather than identifying and logically analysing reasoned arguments. Good luck with that.

No. The OP is not trying (either by logic or otherwise) to convince you of it's assertions.  It assumes that you already know (or on the road to knowing) that these things are happening and from there the writer is urging you to do something; namely stop being complacent, get off your bum and take control to change the situation before it's too late. That's why analysing it like it's some philosophical argument is absurd. 

 

Well, at least we can agree to disagree. If I am being urged to do something than I reserve my right to scrutinize it.
. Oh I thought you had done scrutinising and concluded that you disagree with everything the OP said because he failed to define "Human progress". A very sound approach let me tell you. You must be in Misty's philosophy class. Anyhoo just go on scrutinising and be sure to tell us how many errors you find.  Oh and, keep an eye out for that truck. 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Sasha
New Member
*
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 9
Sydney
Gender: male
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #39 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 12:01pm
 
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:51am:
Sasha wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:36am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:21am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:24am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 8:35pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:53am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:05am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:56am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 8:53pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 6:23pm:
The section on Nietzsche is correct, but it's been used as a "tag-on" to help bolster his argument. Nietzsche did indeed peer into the meaningless of the world; he did see that deep down there is no meaning whatsoever other than the meaning we humans attach to things. He then states that only a select few could honestly look at the meaningless and come out optimists. There are many who peer into the meaningless and cannot stand it; those who long for meaning but realise there is none. The author appears to have pierced the veil of Maya but come out a pessimist.
What a tragedy it is for humanity to have a ball and chain around its neck by the likes of a simpletons like you and soren and aquascoot.  


Perhaps you can unravel a problem in the op: how does the author escape illusionary ideals?
You're burying your head in the sand and still insisting (for ideological reasons) that it isn't happening and all of humanity will have to pay the price of your ignorance 


I am not personally insisting anything, I am analysing the op.

The op is troublesome because it argues that people live a life of illusion but then (the author) hints at seeing the truth. The distinction between truth and illusion, intelligible realm and the world of appearances, or noumena and phenomena is an old one, dating as far back as (at least) Plato. The author would be aware of this. I am interested here in how he believes he has, or can, escape illusion.


Do you even have a clue how stupid this looks.  The OP isn't presented here as a philosophical argument with propositions leading to a conclusion.  It assumes that from the things he is saying that you will recognise and empathise with what is being said and hopefully be motivated to act to do something about the positively dire circumstances that we are in. Its as if, just before a great battle, the general gives his army a speech to spur them on to fight and you interrupt and say "Ahhh, now wait a minute Mr General Sir, how do you know that you have or even can escape illusion".  Just ridiculous.  Understand what I'm saying?  Save your comments for the philosophy tutorial. But right now you need to think about the sheer danger and absolutely terrible situation humanity is in and what you can do to prevent the impending disaster.  Oh and BTW the OP isn't saying all   people live a life of illusion. It clearly acknowledges that some people do in fact see the truth and I think you can safely assume that the author puts himself in that category.   


I see. You just want to be pushed around by your emotions, rather than identifying and logically analysing reasoned arguments. Good luck with that.

No. The OP is not trying (either by logic or otherwise) to convince you of it's assertions.  It assumes that you already know (or on the road to knowing) that these things are happening and from there the writer is urging you to do something; namely stop being complacent, get off your bum and take control to change the situation before it's too late. That's why analysing it like it's some philosophical argument is absurd. 

 

Well, at least we can agree to disagree. If I am being urged to do something than I reserve my right to scrutinize it.
. Oh I thought you had done scrutinising and concluded that you disagree with everything the OP said because he failed to define "Human progress". A very sound approach let me tell you. You must be in Misty's philosophy class. Anyhoo just go on scrutinising and be sure to tell us how many errors you find.  Oh and, keep an eye out for that truck. 

No, not everything, just his conclusions. You seem to take this rather personally.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 95293
Gender: male
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #40 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 12:11pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 6:51pm:
Business is a tool. You can use it for whatever purpose you wish to apply it.


Not exactly, Aquascoot. Business requires profit. If it doesn't generate profit, it doesn't receive capital. And without capital, it can't do business.

The inventor of the polio vaccine, for example, refused to patent it. He gave it away because he wanted to cure polio - not make a profit.

Under a business model, this would be impossible. Shareholders would require a reward for their investment. This is the very nature of capitalism, and it's why we have things called governments. The polio vaccine would not have been invented without public funding or charity - and charity is not business. It is the antithesis of the profit motive.

However, government monopolies have their problems. There's a famous shoe story from the Soviet Union. The story goes something like this: the government shoe manufacturer had a quota to produce shoes. The government manufacturer sent out the exact number it was asked to produce, but the shoes were all one size and designed for only one foot. It was pointless complaining. The factory had produced its quota. Whether all those one foot shoes sat in warehouses indefinitely was irrelevant. Shoe production figures could be reported favourably, so the government was doing its job.

This story, however, could equally occur under a private monopoly. Stories of private firms rorting the US government during the Iraqi reconstruction are rife. Most of these contracts were untendered - many of them were "gifts" to Republican donors and friends of Bush and Cheney. There are tales of multimillion dollar bills for undelivered services - services ranging from security consultants who never left US soil to water purification and power services that were never actually provided.

Some of this was, of course, the result of Donald Rumsfeld's reform of US Defence contracting - the biggest reform to the US military since the Vietnam war. Defence privatization had been Rumsfeld's crusade for years, but in the end, Rumsfeld had very few friends left in the Pentagon. The privatization of the US military is just one part of the fiasco that was the invasion of Iraq. In the end, Rumsfeld had to go.

What's important here is not whether a service is public or private, but whether it's a monopoly. Towards its end, the British East India Company was more bureaucratic and inefficient than the public sector that replaced it. Don't forget - the private sector preceded the public sector during the emergence of capitalism in the 16th century. Before the navies ruled the seas, pirates like Francis Drake performed the crown's business of conquest and battles with warring foreign powers. These pirates were granted titles and land grants, becoming legitimate and very rich indeed. Their spoils were invested into further voyages, including the booming spice trade. The surplus from this trade was invested into the early publicly floated companies, state mandated monopolies such as the British East India Company and the Dutch East Indies Company. As an example of how profitable such ventures were, one shipload of spices from Malacca or Cochin could set a merchant up for life, earning millions of profits in today's money.

This is why monopolies were so important - not only did they earn a fortune in gold and silver for their licensed companies (providing bribes, like the Iraqi contracts, to influential friends), their wealth was required to provide security from warring kingdoms' ships and secure the emerging colonies where they did business. Trade routes required warships. Ports required forts. Trade and conquest required muscle, but also exceptional negotiating skills. Such skills provided the basis of modern diplomacy. The muscle provided the basis of maritime law and the means to secure colonies. Together, the brains and the brawn became what was called "gunship diplomacy": the basis of Western colonialism. More importantly, it provided the matrix of the modern global economy and the foundation of capitalism itself.

This, I guess, is a rather long-winded way to show how capitalism emerged - the origins of private enterprise and monopolies on a global scale. These monopolies were not efficient - they could only be sustained by huge profits. The private sector its is not necessarily efficient. As an example of this, the Dutch tulip boom was part of a series of financial shocks that led to the end of Dutch global hegemony. At a point, the price of one tulip bulb cost more than a house. Such market fluctuations are the basis of global instability. This was Lenin's criticism of capitalism: capitalism per se was not necessarily the problem, it was monopoly capitalism led by an irrational, but self-interested, financial sector. Such financial crises would cause future world wars and inevitably bring down capitalism itself.

Lenin predicted the Great Depression and WWII - not bad for a communist. Still, he underestimated the state's ability to tame capitalism. The private sector has been the cause of each financial crisis we've had since. In itself, there is nothing necessarily efficient about the profit motive. It only works within a framework that facilitates efficiency and fairness.

Business is not a tool - by its nature, it must generate profit. The tool, if you want, is the mechanism that keeps the profit motive in check
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 30th, 2014 at 12:42pm by Karnal »  
 
IP Logged
 
namnugenot
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 639
NSW
Gender: male
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #41 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 12:13pm
 
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:51am:
Sasha wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:36am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:21am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:24am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 8:35pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:53am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:05am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:56am:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 8:53pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 6:23pm:
The section on Nietzsche is correct, but it's been used as a "tag-on" to help bolster his argument. Nietzsche did indeed peer into the meaningless of the world; he did see that deep down there is no meaning whatsoever other than the meaning we humans attach to things. He then states that only a select few could honestly look at the meaningless and come out optimists. There are many who peer into the meaningless and cannot stand it; those who long for meaning but realise there is none. The author appears to have pierced the veil of Maya but come out a pessimist.
What a tragedy it is for humanity to have a ball and chain around its neck by the likes of a simpletons like you and soren and aquascoot.  


Perhaps you can unravel a problem in the op: how does the author escape illusionary ideals?
You're burying your head in the sand and still insisting (for ideological reasons) that it isn't happening and all of humanity will have to pay the price of your ignorance 


I am not personally insisting anything, I am analysing the op.

The op is troublesome because it argues that people live a life of illusion but then (the author) hints at seeing the truth. The distinction between truth and illusion, intelligible realm and the world of appearances, or noumena and phenomena is an old one, dating as far back as (at least) Plato. The author would be aware of this. I am interested here in how he believes he has, or can, escape illusion.


Do you even have a clue how stupid this looks.  The OP isn't presented here as a philosophical argument with propositions leading to a conclusion.  It assumes that from the things he is saying that you will recognise and empathise with what is being said and hopefully be motivated to act to do something about the positively dire circumstances that we are in. Its as if, just before a great battle, the general gives his army a speech to spur them on to fight and you interrupt and say "Ahhh, now wait a minute Mr General Sir, how do you know that you have or even can escape illusion".  Just ridiculous.  Understand what I'm saying?  Save your comments for the philosophy tutorial. But right now you need to think about the sheer danger and absolutely terrible situation humanity is in and what you can do to prevent the impending disaster.  Oh and BTW the OP isn't saying all   people live a life of illusion. It clearly acknowledges that some people do in fact see the truth and I think you can safely assume that the author puts himself in that category.   


I see. You just want to be pushed around by your emotions, rather than identifying and logically analysing reasoned arguments. Good luck with that.

No. The OP is not trying (either by logic or otherwise) to convince you of it's assertions.  It assumes that you already know (or on the road to knowing) that these things are happening and from there the writer is urging you to do something; namely stop being complacent, get off your bum and take control to change the situation before it's too late. That's why analysing it like it's some philosophical argument is absurd. 

 

Well, at least we can agree to disagree. If I am being urged to do something than I reserve my right to scrutinize it.
. Oh I thought you had done scrutinising and concluded that you disagree with everything the OP said because he failed to define "Human progress". A very sound approach let me tell you. You must be in Misty's philosophy class. Anyhoo just go on scrutinising and be sure to tell us how many errors you find.  Oh and, keep an eye out for that truck. 
'


Specifically what truck do you think we should be looking for?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 95293
Gender: male
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #42 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 12:48pm
 
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:21am:
As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused.


Of course it's not Marxist. Marxism is all about human progress. Marxism is part of German idealist tradition that, borrowing from Aristotle, invented the modern idea of human progress.

Mistie got Marxism confused with doom and gloom. He's a moral abstractionist, you see.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Karnal
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 95293
Gender: male
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #43 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 2:23pm
 
Sasha wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:03am:
Is Human Progress a spiritual one?... Is it an advance in technology and human knowledge? Is it attaining Enlightenment?  Is it an individual selfish desire for self-fulfilment? So what is Human progress from your viewpoint OP?

Taken from Hegel, the idea of progress is about bringing the higher realms, or spirit, into the world. For Hegel, human history works in stages, each progressing step by step towards a state of pure consciousness. Descartes split the phenomenon of reason from the flesh, or human desire. The Enlightenment notion of progress was about bringing the laws of God into the laws of men through reason, scientific discovery, and later, through political-economy.

Marx developed the stages of human progress into the idea of historical materialism. Here, the purpose of reason, or consciousness, was to be in the world. In defining such a purpose, Marx did away with the notion of God. The endpoint, or telos, of human progress was not based in a Platonic world of idealist forms as it was for Hegel, but in the world of human relations. For Marx, progress was about ending class struggle, which caused history to progress through stages.

For Hegel and Marx, progress was predicted to end at a certain historical point, culminating in what Hegel called the end of history. The conservative philosopher, Francis Fukuyama, called this historical end point as the end of the Cold War. For Hegel, human progress ended with the political establishment of liberal democracy (or constitutional monarchies or republics).

Fukuyama, however, has since retracted this opinion.

Marx's telos was communism. While Marx never formally retracted this opinion, he moved his emphasis in his later works towards the political model of social democracy. This is one reason why communist parties throughout the world struggled to put what they called "theory into practice": Marx was never clear about what needed to happen to achieve communism, or the end of class struggle. His Communist Manifesto was just a passionate call for the proletariat (Marx's endpoint as history's triumphant class) to take over the means of production. The main architect of communist thought became Lenin, articulated in his work, What Is To Be Done. During the Cold War, communist parties throughout the world struggled to identify as the true party of Marxism-Leninism.

Existentialists like Satre picked up on Marx's materialism, but did away with the notion of progress. For Satre, "existence precedes essence", meaning that Hegel's world of spirit (or pure reason) was a mere projection of things, and relationships between things, in this world. Satre had no time for God, but a focus on existence required a closer look at how humans think and perceive things. Satre referred to the later work of Nietzsche, which hovers on the question of metaphysics and being.

This required a focus on language - a move in 20th century Western thought that became known as the "linguistic turn". This move looked at the relationship of language with things - signs and "signifiers" (or words, if you want) with their meanings, or "signifieds". This field came to call itself semiotics, a movement within structuralism. Semiotics initially articulated a push in modern thought towards "pure" expression. This was the basis of modern art, movements like cubism, abstract expressionism and minimalism aiming to capture the real meaning of things in a visual form.

From this perspective, Western thought quickly reached the limits of such a project. Modern thought began to accept this. It came to identify no relationship at all between"signifieds" and their "signifiers", language and its meaning, or representation and the thing being represented. This was a pivotal historical rupture in Western philosophy.

This disruption, started largely by Neitzsche, saw an end to Hegelian idealism, along with the question (or possibility) of human progress. For many, it marked the end of the Enlightenment itself. If spirit, or pure reason, was merely a linguistic phenomenon, interchangeable with any of a myriad of signifiers, it could never be fully captured within language itself. This moved Western thought towards what has become known as post-structuralism, a very loosely connected group of thinkers who share the implausibility of defining human evolution in linear terms; the impossibility of progress.

This has also seen an end to the faith in politics once held by Marxists. Such ideas as equality, human progress, and historical and dialectical materialism have come to be seen as "liberatory discourses" and "universal signifiers" - a term that also applies to God. The Hegelian/Marxist idea of history as progressing in stages - thesis, antithese and synthesis - is also called to question. Thinkers we might call post-structuralists have focused any political action on specific social movements. Following the linguistic turn, it is still possible to reform institutions, seek to put "theory into practice" and act "in the world", but it's important not to create further abstractions (and greater social problems).

The 20th century saw so much death and destruction, its response was indeed gloomy. Such systemic conflict was part of our competing Western views on human progress. It can, of course, also be seen as the teething pains of human progress, or class struggle.

I'll let you be the judge of that.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 30th, 2014 at 3:05pm by Karnal »  
 
IP Logged
 
ImSpartacus2
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6913
Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #44 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 2:44pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 12:48pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 11:21am:
As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused.


Of course it's not Marxist. Marxism is all about human progress. Marxism is part of German idealist tradition that, borrowing from Aristotle, invented the modern idea of human progress.

Mistie got Marxism confused with doom and gloom. He's a moral abstractionist, you see.
Actually I'm gathering that Misty's definition of Marxism/Communism is "Anything that I don't like"
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 12
Send Topic Print