Australian Politics Forum - The Myth of Human Progress

Karnal

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #45 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 2:49pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 2:44pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 11:21am:

As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused.

Of course it's not Marxist. Marxism is all about human progress. Marxism is part of German idealist tradition that, borrowing from Aristotle, invented the modern idea of human progress.

Mistie got Marxism confused with doom and gloom. He's a moral abstractionist, you see.

Actually I'm gathering that Misty's definition of Marxism/Communism is "Anything that I don't like"

That's most things, Sparticus.

Mistie can't help it - he works at the uni.

It's full of "progressives".

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #46 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:00pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

aquascoot wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

Business is a tool. You can use it for whatever purpose you wish to apply it.

Not exactly, Aquascoot. Business requires profit. If it doesn't generate profit, it doesn't receive capital. And without capital, it can't do business.

The inventor of the polio vaccine, for example, refused to patent it. He gave it away because he wanted to cure polio - not make a profit....

Good post. Not that I agree with it all but good post none the less. I remember a news report during the Gorbachev years that still makes me laugh today. It was talking about some of the inefficiencies of soviet industry and said that the standard joke at the time was that the Russian Govt likes to boast that Russia makes the world's biggest micro chip.

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #47 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:03pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 2:49pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 2:44pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 11:21am:

As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused.

Of course it's not Marxist. Marxism is all about human progress. Marxism is part of German idealist tradition that, borrowing from Aristotle, invented the modern idea of human progress.

Mistie got Marxism confused with doom and gloom. He's a moral abstractionist, you see.

Actually I'm gathering that Misty's definition of Marxism/Communism is "Anything that I don't like"

That's most things, Sparticus.

Mistie can't help it - he works at the uni.

It's full of "progressives".

I know he keeps insisting on the use of that term "progressives". Does that mean to distinguish ourselves from his position we are compelled to refer to him and his ilk as "the backwards". Seems almost cruel really.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #48 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:04pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 11:21am:

As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused.

Of course it's not Marxist. Marxism is all about human progress. Marxism is part of German idealist tradition that, borrowing from Aristotle, invented the modern idea of human progress.

Mistie got Marxism confused with doom and gloom. He's a moral abstractionist, you see.

Marx's original philosophy was indeed about progress. But Marxist analyses of the economy and society are invariably always pessimistic. The op is but one of many examples.

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Postmodern Trendoid III Gold Member Offline Posts: 10259 Gender:	Re: The Myth of Human Progress Reply #49 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:10pm Reply 43 is a pretty good summation of what was considered progress, Karnal. I started a thread on this to see if someone could articulate what progress today means. I didn't get any real responses.
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ImSpartacus2

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #50 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:11pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 11:21am:

As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused.

Of course it's not Marxist. Marxism is all about human progress. Marxism is part of German idealist tradition that, borrowing from Aristotle, invented the modern idea of human progress.

Mistie got Marxism confused with doom and gloom. He's a moral abstractionist, you see.

Marx's original philosophy was indeed about progress. But Marxist analyses of the economy and society are invariably always pessimistic. The op is but one of many examples.

Where on earth do you get that from. Do you just make these things up when it suites you. You know he believed the inevitable result of this march through the stages of history would be the dictatorship of the proletariat. The result he favoured. So where's the pessimism in that.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #51 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:14pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:11pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 11:21am:

As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused.

Of course it's not Marxist. Marxism is all about human progress. Marxism is part of German idealist tradition that, borrowing from Aristotle, invented the modern idea of human progress.

Mistie got Marxism confused with doom and gloom. He's a moral abstractionist, you see.

Marx's original philosophy was indeed about progress. But Marxist analyses of the economy and society are invariably always pessimistic. The op is but one of many examples.

Where on earth do you get that from. Do you just make these things up when it suites you. You know he believed the inevitable result of this march through the stages of history would be the dictatorship of the proletariat. The result he favoured. So where's the pessimism in that.

Marx was pessimistic about his own time. Hence why he called for a revolution. Marx and Marxists are only optimistic in the idealistic sense; meaning, in the sense that they project some utopia in the future. The present is always unbearable for them, though.

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Karnal

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #52 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:16pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:00pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

aquascoot wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

Business is a tool. You can use it for whatever purpose you wish to apply it.

Not exactly, Aquascoot. Business requires profit. If it doesn't generate profit, it doesn't receive capital. And without capital, it can't do business.

The inventor of the polio vaccine, for example, refused to patent it. He gave it away because he wanted to cure polio - not make a profit....

Good post. Not that I agree with it all but good post none the less.

All property is theft, Spartacus. I'm yet to meet anyone who disagrees with this, but feel free if you want.

From the aristocracy to the merchant class to the current financiers (particularly currency speculators, who profit on lowering countries' currency reserves, and hence, the value of their money) - all wealth has its origins in piracy, the spoils of war, or financial crisis.

As everybody knows. The only thing we disagree with is whether we believe this is the natural state of affairs or not.

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Karnal

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #53 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:29pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:14pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:11pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 11:21am:

As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused.

Of course it's not Marxist. Marxism is all about human progress. Marxism is part of German idealist tradition that, borrowing from Aristotle, invented the modern idea of human progress.

Mistie got Marxism confused with doom and gloom. He's a moral abstractionist, you see.

Marx's original philosophy was indeed about progress. But Marxist analyses of the economy and society are invariably always pessimistic. The op is but one of many examples.

Where on earth do you get that from. Do you just make these things up when it suites you. You know he believed the inevitable result of this march through the stages of history would be the dictatorship of the proletariat. The result he favoured. So where's the pessimism in that.

Marx was pessimistic about his own time. Hence why he called for a revolution. Marx and Marxists are only optimistic in the idealistic sense; meaning, in the sense that they project some utopia in the future. The present is always unbearable for them, though.

Mistie, everyone in Marx's time called for revolution. The French, the Yanks - even the poms put the King on the chopping block.

Have you looked at Kuhn's, the Structure of Scientific Revolutions? All shifts in thought/logic are about competing paradigms - the laws that govern truth.

The history of Western thought is a never-ending series of revolutions and power struggles. I don't think anyone can deny this either.

Please do if you feel free.

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hawil

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #54 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 5:03pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:16pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:00pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

aquascoot wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

Business is a tool. You can use it for whatever purpose you wish to apply it.

Not exactly, Aquascoot. Business requires profit. If it doesn't generate profit, it doesn't receive capital. And without capital, it can't do business.

The inventor of the polio vaccine, for example, refused to patent it. He gave it away because he wanted to cure polio - not make a profit....

Good post. Not that I agree with it all but good post none the less.

All property is theft, Spartacus. I'm yet to meet anyone who disagrees with this, but feel free if you want.

From the aristocracy to the merchant class to the current financiers (particularly currency speculators, who profit on lowering countries' currency reserves, and hence, the value of their money) - all wealth has its origins in piracy, the spoils of war, or financial crisis.

As everybody knows. The only thing we disagree with is whether we believe this is the natural state of affairs or not.

If a person works, saves towards a home and a roof under which to live, or builds it himself, this property can hardly be called, "theft".
In regards to your posts on this subject, I can only say, excellent, and must have taken a lot of effort to write, and you are definitely very knowledgeable, but I think they are wasted on this forum.
,

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Karnal

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #55 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 7:16pm

Oh, indeed, Hawil. Pearls before swine (present company excepted, of course).

That home you may one day own is financed by a bank. The land it’s on was taken by King George the third. And on and on.

When we have savings, we have no say over the product of our labour. This is why programs like personal carbon credits are so ludicrous. We can scrimp and savre on our carbon footprint, watching our electricity use and our carbon miles - and so we should - but every dollar we put into the bank is financing projects that burn fossil fuels.

It’s a global economy. Everything we use or spend comes or goes from someone else.

All property is theft.

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Soren

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #56 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 8:04pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:29pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:14pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:11pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 11:21am:

As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused.

Of course it's not Marxist. Marxism is all about human progress. Marxism is part of German idealist tradition that, borrowing from Aristotle, invented the modern idea of human progress.

Mistie got Marxism confused with doom and gloom. He's a moral abstractionist, you see.

Marx's original philosophy was indeed about progress. But Marxist analyses of the economy and society are invariably always pessimistic. The op is but one of many examples.

Where on earth do you get that from. Do you just make these things up when it suites you. You know he believed the inevitable result of this march through the stages of history would be the dictatorship of the proletariat. The result he favoured. So where's the pessimism in that.

Marx was pessimistic about his own time. Hence why he called for a revolution. Marx and Marxists are only optimistic in the idealistic sense; meaning, in the sense that they project some utopia in the future. The present is always unbearable for them, though.

Mistie, everyone in Marx's time called for revolution. The French, the Yanks - even the poms put the King on the chopping block.

Have you looked at Kuhn's, the Structure of Scientific Revolutions? All shifts in thought/logic are about competing paradigms - the laws that govern truth.

The history of Western thought is a never-ending series of revolutions and power struggles. I don't think anyone can deny this either.

Please do if you feel free.

I do. It's a load of anachronistic, nay, reactionary 19th century load of bollocks.

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Karnal

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #57 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 8:12pm

Soren wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 8:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:29pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:14pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:11pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 3:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 12:48pm:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 11:21am:

As to what is Marxist about the OP leaves me quite confused.

Of course it's not Marxist. Marxism is all about human progress. Marxism is part of German idealist tradition that, borrowing from Aristotle, invented the modern idea of human progress.

Mistie got Marxism confused with doom and gloom. He's a moral abstractionist, you see.

Marx's original philosophy was indeed about progress. But Marxist analyses of the economy and society are invariably always pessimistic. The op is but one of many examples.

Where on earth do you get that from. Do you just make these things up when it suites you. You know he believed the inevitable result of this march through the stages of history would be the dictatorship of the proletariat. The result he favoured. So where's the pessimism in that.

Marx was pessimistic about his own time. Hence why he called for a revolution. Marx and Marxists are only optimistic in the idealistic sense; meaning, in the sense that they project some utopia in the future. The present is always unbearable for them, though.

Mistie, everyone in Marx's time called for revolution. The French, the Yanks - even the poms put the King on the chopping block.

Have you looked at Kuhn's, the Structure of Scientific Revolutions? All shifts in thought/logic are about competing paradigms - the laws that govern truth.

The history of Western thought is a never-ending series of revolutions and power struggles. I don't think anyone can deny this either.

Please do if you feel free.

I do. It's a load of anachronistic, nay, reactionary 19th century load of bollocks.

So good of you to join the discussion, old boy.

Thanks for your valid thoughts - most useful.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: The Myth of Human Progress Reply #58 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 8:22pm Indeed. Your stupid little Leninist agitprop is fvked. It is the laziest, clumsiest no-thought BS imaginable. It stank 150 years ago. Yet here you are, eating and regurgitating it. Have another sh!t sandwich, PB, have two. Marxism. How stupid can you be???
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Karnal

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Re: The Myth of Human Progress
Reply #59 - Jan 30^th, 2014 at 8:36pm

Soren wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 8:22pm:

Indeed.
Your stupid little Leninist agitprop is fvked. It is the laziest, clumsiest no-thought BS imaginable. It stank 150 years ago. Yet here you are, eating and regurgitating it.
Have another sh!t sandwich, PB, have two.
Marxism. How stupid can you be???

Thanks, old chap, I’ve eaten.

I must say, we can all see the influence of your marvellous education at the prestigious University of Balogney. Such temprance, such generousity. Such modesty and restraint.

You’ve been reading Freud on Man’s soul again, no? I can tell!

All stools come from somewhere, dear boy. You’ve been "borrowing" again.

Not that I mind - help yourself to as many of my stools as possible.

As you know, all property is theft.

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« Last Edit: Jan 30^th, 2014 at 9:01pm by Karnal »

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