Australian Politics Forum - underage marriage in Sydney

freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #225 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:13pm

Quote:

Yes, FD, but you neglected to answer the question of which Australian Muslims are using the excuse of "Mohammed did it so it's right".

The people who did it. I told you this already.

Quote:

But I've never once heard of any Muslims in the West justifying this, or making excuses for it.

You must have missed Abu telling us that if there is grass on the wicket, it's time to play cricket. Even TC has been busy making excuses right here in this thread. Apparently sex with children is "scientific" so it's OK. That seems to be a popular line - I think Abu used it too.

Quote:

As far as I can tell, most are happy to be far away from such tribalism.

Except of course, the ones having sex with children. And the imams solemnising the pedophile weddings.

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I have never heard one Islamic organization, spokesperson or religious leader arguing that child marriages are okay because the Prophet did it.

Why do you think that is? Because they know when to keep their mouth shut? Do you think that the Imam who solemnised this wedding is secretly opposed to the practice? What would it take to convince you? Muslims marching down the street with placards declaring their support for pedophilia?

Quote:

Actually, I remember Falah on this site justifying Mohammed's actions in a historical context, but I don't remember him saying child marriages are right or proper today.

Gandalf made similar noises also, yet he also hinted that it is a timeless standard, then refused to clarify in what context it ought to be re-applied. Apparently you can train children to be morally appropriate child brides. It's all in the upbringing.

Quote:

If you're going to use the "many Muslims believe" argument, please provide a quote. I'm sure you can find a few doozies from Abu and Falah.

I don't need to. I have an Imam arrested for solemnising the marriage of a 26 year old to a 12 year old. All the rest need to do is stare at their navel and wonder how to protect the reputation of Islam while being sensitive to their religious beliefs. Gandalf is probably doing it right now.

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I'm sure you've indexed them and have them on file.

Yes. It is in the wiki if you are interested.

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Aha. The old lack of evidence proving guilt. Good work, old boy.

Is there a lack of a pedophile, a father, and even an Imam facing charges? Do we need to postpone this discussion until they are convicted?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95936 Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #226 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:24pm So the Muselmen know when to keep their mouths shut when they’re using the excuse the "Mohammed did it so it’s okay". Good work, FD. That three days in the basement was worth it. Postpone this discussion until all Muslims are convicted? What sort of spineless apologetics is that? They’re already convicted.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49096 At my desk.	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #227 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:31pm Quote: So the Muselmen know when to keep their mouths shut when they’re using the excuse the "Mohammed did it so it’s okay". Most of them realise we take a dim view of having sex with children - obviously not all of them. Gandalf is offering to be accomodating in the POWs thread, so it is on his mind.
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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #228 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:48pm

freediver wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

Quote:

So the Muselmen know when to keep their mouths shut when they’re using the excuse the "Mohammed did it so it’s okay".

Most of them realise we take a dim view of having sex with children - obviously not all of them.

Clearly. Mind you, the ones who realise we take a dim view are at immediate risk of being beheaded for not following their prophet and marrying nine year old girls.

They must have to fake their desire for pre-teens down at the mosque, eh?

Talk about cunning.

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« Last Edit: Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:58pm by Karnal »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49096 At my desk.	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #229 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:58pm Do you think it is odd that this guy walked into a centrelink office to get a handout for his 12 year old bride?
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wally1

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #230 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:58pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 7:51pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 5:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:27am:

Muslims will not kill you for marrying underage kids or your goat. They will kill you for saying that Mohammed was wrong.

Thank you for the thank you, old chap. You still haven't said how the prophet's example (peace be upon him) creates Muslim paedophiles.

Abraham, for example, had it off with his wife's young slave, Hagar, who bore the descendants of one of the Twelves Tribes of Israel. How many Jews use this as an excuse for paedophilic slavery and polygamy?

Religious leaders in Islam are allowed to marry. Religious leaders in the Catholic tradition are not.

Do you think this may have any influence on the phenomenon of paedophilia in religion, or is this just more PB jibberish?

Allah Uakbar.

Focus, PB.
Mohammed's example is not subject to doubt or questioning by Muslims. He consummated his marriage to his 10th wife when she started to menstruate, at age 9. Muslims therefore recognise menstruation as the age of consent, not any legally set by parliament.

Abraham. Thank you for showing your Islamically impeccable inability to talk about Islam's shortcomings without immediately turning to the Jews. Very PB of you. Abraham, and all the rest of them - they are not followed uncritically in the secular west. Being critical of them and their practices or teachings will not kill you in the West. Further, any excuse saying 'Abraham did t too, will not be accepted in the West, including Israel. So the crucial point eluded you - you cannot be critical of Mohammed' practices in Muslim countries where as religiou practices that go against Western law are criticised (and avoided) without any risk.

Mohammed's example that it is OK to marry a girl of any age once she has started bleeding has nothing whatsoever to do with Catholic celibacy or with religious people of any persuasion breaking clear and obvious prohibitions. They break the law (not to mention sin): they do wrong both by their own religious laws and by secular laws. Following Mohammed's example, on the other hand, neither breaks sharia law nor is, therefore, a sin by Muslims.

I say, old boy, if you can provide one - 1 - example of a majority Muslim jurisdiction with an age of consent as 9 (or the age of menstration), I’ll believe everything you’ve just posted. I’ll even uncritically obey that the founding father of Judaism was not a dirty old boy like yourself.

Which, if you couldn’t tell, I used as an example of how Jews aren’t paedophile polygamists, based on the example of their prophet.

One example to prove your point. Shouldn’t be hard, eh?

K,

A moslem majority jurisdiction = = the moslem ummah.

According to ISLAMIC doctrine, there is only one moslem jurisdiction/community.

Dictionary;
umma = = the whole community of Muslims bound together by ties of religion.

"Muslims are one ummah (community)

to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."
Ishaq:231

Q.
Is it lawful - i.e. is it lawful within the ummah - for a moslem man to marry a 6 year old girl ?

A.
Yes it is.

And why so ?

Because Mohammed married a 6 year old girl.

And, IT IS LAWFUL for every moslem man to imitate the recorded conduct and behaviour and acts of Mohammed.

Mohamed had multiple wives.A Muslim man can't have mutilple wives and limit is 4 and must treat them all fairly.IF he can't treat them equally he can't have 4.

SO there goes your theory on the obligation that Muslims need to follow Mohamed to a tee.

Mohamed tended to cattle,does that mean muslims can't do other jobs cause MOhamed didn't do other work?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95936 Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #231 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:00pm freediver wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:58pm: Do you think it is odd that this guy walked into a centrelink office to get a handout for his 12 year old bride? I do. Three years too late, FD. I’m surprised he wasn’t executed for apostacy.
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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #232 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:02pm

Quote:

A Muslim man can't have mutilple wives and limit is 4

How many do you have to get before it becomes multiple?

Quote:

SO there goes your theory on the obligation that Muslims need to follow Mohamed to a tee.

Allah ordered Muhammed to have more wives than everyone else was allowed. Muslims do not see this as permission to break the restriction on the number of wives, or any other Islamic laws, or as a rejection of the principle of following Muhammed's example. It does not make sense, but it is what they believe.

Other Muslim men have to make do with sex slaves, once they have reached their allocated quota of wives. Or, they can divorce them once they reach puberty.

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Pete Waldo

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #233 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:11pm

wally1 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:58pm:

Mohamed had multiple wives.A Muslim man can't have mutilple wives and limit is 4 .........

What's the limit on concubines Wally?

wally1 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:58pm:

....... and must treat them all fairly.IF he can't treat them equally he can't have 4.

SO there goes your theory on the obligation that Muslims need to follow Mohamed to a tee.

Indeed Wally. Muhammad's, Muhammad-serving alter-ego and fellow terrorist "Allah", not only lavished on Muhammad all the wives and concubines he wanted, but even lavished on him 1/5 of all the property stolen from others, just like a Mafia Don. Since there are only 5/5s it couldn't hardly apply to his followers.
Muhammad even received a special "revelation" from his "Allah" that allowed him to steal his step-son's only wife.

As explained by a Nigerian former Muslim:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/moral_life_of_prophet_mohammed.htm

"With fleets of wives at Muhammad's disposal, coupled with his special
privilege to have as many concubines as he desired, Muhammad's
passion for women seemed to know no bounds. He even took the only
wife of his adopted son, Zaid. Zaid Ibn Haritha was Muhammad's freed
man and adopted son. Muhammad wedded Zaid to a beautiful lady
named Zainab, but with the passage of time, Muhammad's heart began
to long for her. So on his visit to Zaid's abode, the prophet of Islam said:

"Praise belongeth unto Allah who turneth the hearts of men as he
willeth." Zaid got the message and arranged to divorce his wife.
Muhammad knew quite well that nothing short of a new "revelation"
could save his face from this detestable act, so he dissuaded Zaid from
putting his wife away until the transaction could be sanctioned by a
"revelation" from Allah. Read the words of the following sura:

"Behold! thou didst say to one who had received the grace of
God and thy Favor: 'retain thou [in wedlock] thy wife, and fear
God.' But thou didst fear in thy heart that which God was about
to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more
fitting that thou shouldest fear God. Then when Zaid had
dissolved [his marriage] with her, with the necessary [formal-ity], we joined her in marriage to thee: in order that in [thefuture] there may be no difficulty to the believers in [the matterof] marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the
later have dissolved with the necessary [formality] [theirmarriage] with them. And God's command must be fulfilled."
(Sura 33:37)

The reason for these self-serving "revelations" is obvious: Zainab,
daughter of Jahsh, was Muhammad's cousin, and the Arabian custom
(before Islam) forbade marriage with the wives of their adopted sons
even after divorce.1 Can you imagine a religion that claims to promote purity of heart and good moral conduct, permitting its prophet - who
already had eleven wives plus numerous concubines - to take the only
wife of his own adopted son? The pathetic side of this recorded historic
incident is that Allah, supposedly the architect of justice and morality,
actually approved of this despicable act. The doom of all who love
justice, holiness and righteousness is sealed if Allah, who condones this
kind of wickedness, is allowed to prevail."

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« Last Edit: Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:30pm by Pete Waldo »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49096 At my desk.	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #234 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:17pm Allan is generous, most-giving.
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Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #235 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:20pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 5:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:27am:

Muslims will not kill you for marrying underage kids or your goat. They will kill you for saying that Mohammed was wrong.

Thank you for the thank you, old chap. You still haven't said how the prophet's example (peace be upon him) creates Muslim paedophiles.

Abraham, for example, had it off with his wife's young slave, Hagar, who bore the descendants of one of the Twelves Tribes of Israel. How many Jews use this as an excuse for paedophilic slavery and polygamy?

Religious leaders in Islam are allowed to marry. Religious leaders in the Catholic tradition are not.

Do you think this may have any influence on the phenomenon of paedophilia in religion, or is this just more PB jibberish?

Allah Uakbar.

Focus, PB.
Mohammed's example is not subject to doubt or questioning by Muslims. He consummated his marriage to his 10th wife when she started to menstruate, at age 9. Muslims therefore recognise menstruation as the age of consent, not any legally set by parliament.

Abraham. Thank you for showing your Islamically impeccable inability to talk about Islam's shortcomings without immediately turning to the Jews. Very PB of you. Abraham, and all the rest of them - they are not followed uncritically in the secular west. Being critical of them and their practices or teachings will not kill you in the West. Further, any excuse saying 'Abraham did t too, will not be accepted in the West, including Israel. So the crucial point eluded you - you cannot be critical of Mohammed' practices in Muslim countries where as religiou practices that go against Western law are criticised (and avoided) without any risk.

Mohammed's example that it is OK to marry a girl of any age once she has started bleeding has nothing whatsoever to do with Catholic celibacy or with religious people of any persuasion breaking clear and obvious prohibitions. They break the law (not to mention sin): they do wrong both by their own religious laws and by secular laws. Following Mohammed's example, on the other hand, neither breaks sharia law nor is, therefore, a sin by Muslims.

I say, old boy, if you can provide one - 1 - example of a majority Muslim jurisdiction with an age of consent as 9 (or the age of menstration), I’ll believe everything you’ve just posted. I’ll even uncritically obey that the founding father of Judaism was not a dirty old boy like yourself.

Which, if you couldn’t tell, I used as an example of how Jews aren’t paedophile polygamists, based on the example of their prophet.

One example to prove your point. Shouldn’t be hard, eh?

Saudi Arabia. As you say, it isn't hard. There is NO age limit to marriage: Kingdom currently has no law setting the age for marriage.

Read all about it.

Yemen: In 1999, the minimum marriage age of fifteen for women, rarely enforced, was abolished; the onset of puberty, interpreted by conservatives to be at the age of nine, was set as a requirement for consummation of marriage. The law was silent on procedures to enforce this provision. Penal legislation forbade the testimony of women in criminal matters and compensation to be paid for assault or murder of a woman was half that of a man.

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Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #236 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:31pm

wally1 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 9:58pm:

SO there goes your theory on the obligation that Muslims need to follow Mohamed to a tee.

That wasn't the argument, Wally.

The argument is that Muslims can't say that Mohammed did anything wrong, ever, not even when he consummated his marriage with a 9 (or 12) year old, or when he took 10 wives or when he ordered the murder of this or that person or people, etc, etc.

The general argument from these examples is that Muslims cannot declare that some of Mohammed's deeds and examples are not for this age or place and so Islam is perpetually stuck in the 7th century Arabian mindset and value system. The aim of the worlwide caliphate is to actually recreate that mythical 7th century Arabian mindset and value system and way of looking at and relating to the world and each other.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #237 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:38pm

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:20pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 6:44pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 5:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:27am:

Muslims will not kill you for marrying underage kids or your goat. They will kill you for saying that Mohammed was wrong.

Thank you for the thank you, old chap. You still haven't said how the prophet's example (peace be upon him) creates Muslim paedophiles.

Abraham, for example, had it off with his wife's young slave, Hagar, who bore the descendants of one of the Twelves Tribes of Israel. How many Jews use this as an excuse for paedophilic slavery and polygamy?

Religious leaders in Islam are allowed to marry. Religious leaders in the Catholic tradition are not.

Do you think this may have any influence on the phenomenon of paedophilia in religion, or is this just more PB jibberish?

Allah Uakbar.

Focus, PB.
Mohammed's example is not subject to doubt or questioning by Muslims. He consummated his marriage to his 10th wife when she started to menstruate, at age 9. Muslims therefore recognise menstruation as the age of consent, not any legally set by parliament.

Abraham. Thank you for showing your Islamically impeccable inability to talk about Islam's shortcomings without immediately turning to the Jews. Very PB of you. Abraham, and all the rest of them - they are not followed uncritically in the secular west. Being critical of them and their practices or teachings will not kill you in the West. Further, any excuse saying 'Abraham did t too, will not be accepted in the West, including Israel. So the crucial point eluded you - you cannot be critical of Mohammed' practices in Muslim countries where as religiou practices that go against Western law are criticised (and avoided) without any risk.

Mohammed's example that it is OK to marry a girl of any age once she has started bleeding has nothing whatsoever to do with Catholic celibacy or with religious people of any persuasion breaking clear and obvious prohibitions. They break the law (not to mention sin): they do wrong both by their own religious laws and by secular laws. Following Mohammed's example, on the other hand, neither breaks sharia law nor is, therefore, a sin by Muslims.

I say, old boy, if you can provide one - 1 - example of a majority Muslim jurisdiction with an age of consent as 9 (or the age of menstration), I’ll believe everything you’ve just posted. I’ll even uncritically obey that the founding father of Judaism was not a dirty old boy like yourself.

Which, if you couldn’t tell, I used as an example of how Jews aren’t paedophile polygamists, based on the example of their prophet.

One example to prove your point. Shouldn’t be hard, eh?

Saudi Arabia. As you say, it isn't hard. There is NO age limit to marriage: Kingdom currently has no law setting the age for marriage.

Read all about it.

Excellent work, old boy. You’ve done it.

I hate to be picky, but they are trying to raise the age to 18.

And yes, in 2008, a Saudi court refused to annul a marriage between a 58 year old man and his 8 year old wife (!)

Good show, old chap. I conceed you have a point.

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Pete Waldo

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #238 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:41pm

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:20pm:

Saudi Arabia. As you say, it isn't hard. There is NO age limit to marriage: Kingdom currently has no law setting the age for marriage.

No Muslim can effectively bring an argument against child brides, since Muhammad married Aisha at 6 years old, and consummated that marriage at 9 (which doesn't preclude "thighing" in between):
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390658615

(8) Narrated 'aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Bukhari Book #62, Hadith #64)

(9) Narrated 'aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' (Bukhari Book #62, Hadith #65)

53 year old Muhammad doing his 9 year old squeeze must have looked a bit like this lovely couple:

Muhammad marrying Aisha when she perhaps looked something like this:

Daniel 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not...

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95936 Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #239 - Feb 19^th, 2014 at 10:48pm I say, surely they don’t ban other harmless sexual persuits in Saudi Arabia? Surely a bit of harmless frottage is okay, if enjoyed by two men of the world - with at least one willing partner. Eight year old girls is one thing. Surely they’re at least slightly normal in Saudi Arabia.
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