Australian Politics Forum - underage marriage in Sydney

Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #360 - Feb 26^th, 2014 at 3:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 7:39am:

freediver wrote on Feb 25^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Gandalf do you have any tips how the Australian Muslim community can confront this issue while being sensitive to the religious beliefs of Muslims?

Sure - you tell them not to marry children - because its completely contradictory to, and forbidden by islam.

Very simple.

Islam seems to me to be the Schrodinger's cat of religions, always highlighted by the dissonance between what Muslims DO and what they CLAIM they do.
In this particular topic, Islam both proscribes the setting of a minimum age and the marrying under a minimum age.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #361 - Feb 26^th, 2014 at 3:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:34am:

how prevalent is it actually Y? Do you have any evidence other than anecdotes? Notice how many non-muslim nations were in that list of Soren's?

Not a lot, G. Also, it reports underage marriages per capita, not the sum total. India has a population of 1 and 1/4 billion people, 47% of whom married under 18. This places India at the top of the list, with a figure higher than the top 10 countries combined.

All that "child-murdering" Moses describes by girls having babies before they're physically capable is happening more in India than anywhere else in the world. In 2010, the maternal mortality rate in India was 200 women dying per 100,000 births. While this is lower per capita than countries like Nigeria, the sheer population of India dwarfs every other country in the world's top 10 maternal mortality rate, all of which are African countries.

The old boy is right. His figures show young people under 18, not under 12. In India, 18% of girls are married by age 15. This figure alone accounts for over 200 million girls, all married during puberty.

If Moses and Y want to crack the whip, they might want to get tough on Hinduism. But clearly, this would be futile. There is no indication of marriage age and religion around the world. A look at the statistics shows that underage marriage occurs in underdeveloped countries, among rural villagers. African countries feature highest per capita, and there is no tendency either way towards countries with Muslim or Christian majorities.

The countries with no minimum age for marriage do not have a high percentage of child marriages. They are not even in the top 20. Likewise, they do not have high maternal mortality - or even infant mortality - figures.

This poses an enigma: if the Muselmen are keen to follow their prophet and marry nine year old girls - so much so that the most fundamentalist Muslim countries (Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen)have no minimum age for marriage - why don't they have the highest child marriage rates? Why are they surpassed in every way by Hindus?

I will patiently await a reply, friends.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #362 - Feb 26^th, 2014 at 4:14pm

Soren wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 3:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 7:39am:

freediver wrote on Feb 25^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Gandalf do you have any tips how the Australian Muslim community can confront this issue while being sensitive to the religious beliefs of Muslims?

Sure - you tell them not to marry children - because its completely contradictory to, and forbidden by islam.

Very simple.

Islam seems to me to be the Schrodinger's cat of religions, always highlighted by the dissonance between what Muslims DO and what they CLAIM they do.

Then perhaps, old chap, you would like to address the dissonance between the zero minimum marriage age in Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Iran and the countries with the most underage marriages.

The age of consent in India is 18, yet almost half the marriages in India occur before people reach that age.

What influence does the rule of law have on deeply entrenched cultural practices like child marriage?

India, by the way, has a higher population than the entire number of Muslims around the world combined.

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Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #363 - Feb 26^th, 2014 at 4:40pm

As I said when I provided the stats from international centre for research on women, the figures are limited in that table as they cover only women between 20-24 years who were married or in union before age 18.

That is why i added the Wiki extract.
And to show the religious dimension and the evident what-would-Mohammed-do thinking behind that religious dimension.

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #364 - Feb 26^th, 2014 at 5:59pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 3:57pm:

['under-age marriages' is not a serious issue except in India, so....]

I will patiently await a reply, friends.

Why so ?

You have self declared that you are not qualified to debate, on issues involving ISLAM/moslems.

You have declared your utter disinterest, boredom with issues connected to religion/ISLAM, and declared your proclivity to criticise 'many things', principally it seems, your wife.

Karnal wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 10:12pm:

Quote:

Do you feel entitled to criticise Islam?

If I knew more about it, sure.

Most of it bores me, to be honest, but I’m not a Muslim.

I criticize many things I have an intimate knowledge of.

Take my wife.

K,

Go here....

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390966557

....and get your personal issues sorted, and come back when your a man [....or a woman with a pair of balls as a trophy].

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #365 - Feb 26^th, 2014 at 7:32pm

Soren wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 4:40pm:

As I said when I provided the stats from international centre for research on women, the figures are limited in that table as they cover only women between 20-24 years who were married or in union before age 18.

Your source cites 2 sets of figures: UN and ICRW. The figures are almost exactly the same. Sure, the numbers would change over time, but in which direction? Urbanization and improved education for girls suggest that women will marry older. Women who have careers don’t marry young, and they put off having children.

In peripheral countries with declining living standards, you would expect women and girls to marry younger. Pakistan and Afghanistan would be included here, however we don’t have figures over time, so I’m speculating.

Religion is not the driving issue here. Development and the inclusion of women in the labour market is. If Islam is so important here, why don’t the developed gulf states top the list?

Women and girls marry, or are married, for economic reasons, including the fee paid to brides’ parents. Child marriage is about poverty, not religion.

You’re right. Muhammed’s example has nuffin to do wiv nuffin at the global socio-economic level. If it did, which prophet are all those Hindus and Christians emulating?

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #366 - Feb 26^th, 2014 at 7:58pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:34am:

how prevalent is it actually Y? Do you have any evidence other than anecdotes? Notice how many non-muslim nations were in that list of Soren's?

The old boy’s actual facts do show an Islamic step towards underage marriage - in legal terms. The fundamentalist states of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen all have liberal (to put it mildly) minimum ages for marriage: i.e, zero.

This doesn’t, however, account for worldwide prevalence. Here, economic imperatives trump legal/religious ones. In reality, it doesn’t matter what religion girls are. Marriage is about security - economic security, family and blood-line security, and ultimately the security of the population.

Poor countries produce more children (but have higher infant mortality). Children provide security in old age. Sons bring in wages and daughters provide dowries, domestic labour and aged care.

The reasons Muhammed gave for marrying his child wife were about her own security. In agrarian societies, the protection of women and girls is crucial for the maintenance of the population and (domestic) economy.

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Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #367 - Feb 26^th, 2014 at 9:55pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:34am:

how prevalent is it actually Y? Do you have any evidence other than anecdotes? Notice how many non-muslim nations were in that list of Soren's?

The old boy’s actual facts do show an Islamic step towards underage marriage - in legal terms. The fundamentalist states of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen all have liberal (to put it mildly) minimum ages for marriage: i.e, zero.

This doesn’t, however, account for worldwide prevalence. Here, economic imperatives trump legal/religious ones. In reality, it doesn’t matter what religion girls are. Marriage is about security - economic security, family and blood-line security, and ultimately the security of the population.

Poor countries produce more children (but have higher infant mortality). Children provide security in old age. Sons bring in wages and daughters provide dowries, domestic labour and aged care.

The reasons Muhammed gave for marrying his child wife were about her own security. In agrarian societies, the protection of women and girls is crucial for the maintenance of the population and (domestic) economy.

Which is then one of the arguments against third world immigration - they ARE different and will not leave their customs and outlook at the border.
Especially not if some of their more primitive habits of mind are bolstered by Islamic principles, such as child marriage. If it was really against Islam as the face palm Godzilla tries to imply, 1400 would have been enough to eradicate it from the 'Muslim lands', like they eradicated freedoms of every sort.

There are no christian principles supporting underage marriage. No Christian cleric has ever offered th biblical defence because everyone knows that there isn't one. Not so with the islamic defence of it.

Trying the old 19th century Marxist dialectical materialist explanation is reactionary excuse making in an interconnected world. Either they are up to international standards - or else what the bloody hell are they doing here??

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #368 - Feb 26^th, 2014 at 9:58pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:34am:

how prevalent is it actually Y? Do you have any evidence other than anecdotes? Notice how many non-muslim nations were in that list of Soren's?

The old boy’s actual facts do show an Islamic step towards underage marriage - in legal terms. The fundamentalist states of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen all have liberal (to put it mildly) minimum ages for marriage: i.e, zero.

This doesn’t, however, account for worldwide prevalence.

Here, economic imperatives trump legal/religious ones.

In reality, it doesn’t matter what religion girls are. Marriage is about security - economic security, family and blood-line security, and ultimately the security of the population.

Poor countries produce more children (but have higher infant mortality). Children provide security in old age. Sons bring in wages and daughters provide dowries, domestic labour and aged care.

The reasons Muhammed gave for marrying his child wife were about her own security. In agrarian societies, the protection of women and girls is crucial for the maintenance of the population and (domestic) economy.

'Here' ????

Where is, 'Here' ????

Once again K, you are proving that you have no understanding, of what you are describing.

Karnal wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 10:12pm:

Quote:

Do you feel entitled to criticise Islam?

If I knew more about it, sure.

Most of it bores me, to be honest, but I’m not a Muslim.

I criticize many things I have an intimate knowledge of.

Take my wife.

K,

Moslems do not live, 'here', .....wherever you think 'here' is.

Moslems live in a world that is defined and regulated by ISLAM and by ISLAM's rules for living - as defined by Sharia law.

K,

Moslems who are in Australia, do not live in Australia.

Moslems live in a world that is defined and regulated by ISLAM and by its rules for living - as defined by Sharia law.

e.g.
K,

Do remember hearing something. a couple of weeks ago, about a moslem who was killed in Syria ?

A person who was initially described by the Australian moslem community, as an Australia 'aid worker' and his Australian wife who went to Syria, who both perished ?

SYRIA: An example of moslems slaughtering moslems
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1333935983/75#75
Quote:

Quote:

Australian 'fought for al-Qaeda'
January 17, 2014

http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=942519

When Australian citizen, Yusuf Ali, was initially declared a victim of the internecine conflict [moslems slaughtering other moslems] in Syria, didn't the Australian moslem community claim that this person had gone to Syria as an 'aid worker', so as to help the victims of the conflict ?

And now it emerges [when the Australian moslem community are no longer able to spin, Yusuf Ali, as 'a quiet and a gentle man'], now his friends, and the moslem community, concede that Yusuf Ali had darker motives, for travelling to Syria.

Surprise, surprise, ....NOT!

Moslems are inveterate LIARS.

It can be demonstrated, that moslems are continually, and intentionally;
1/ misrepresenting ISLAM to us [who are not moslems],
2/ misrepresenting themselves to us [who are not moslems],
3/ and misrepresenting the 'character' of their community to us [who are not moslems].

Q.
Why so ?

A.
Moslems are inveterate LIARS, because moslems are persons who are enthralled by ISLAM.

Moslems who are in France, do not live in France.

Moslems live in a world that is defined and regulated by ISLAM and by its rules for living - as defined by Sharia law.

e.g. #2,

Quote:

During a press conference on January 14, French President François Hollande revealed that French intelligence services believe more than 700 French nationals and residents have travelled to fight in Syria. This figure is more than double the previous estimates.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4188/jihadists-europe-january

K,

You are right, imo.

You have have no knowledge or perception, on any issue relating to ISLAM and moslems.

ISLAM is just a religion, to you.

And religion doesn't make any sense, to you.

"Most of it bores me, to be honest, but I’m not a Muslim."

THE RELIGION OF PEACE

http://thereligionofpeace.com/

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #369 - Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:00pm

Soren wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 9:55pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:34am:

how prevalent is it actually Y? Do you have any evidence other than anecdotes? Notice how many non-muslim nations were in that list of Soren's?

The old boy’s actual facts do show an Islamic step towards underage marriage - in legal terms. The fundamentalist states of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen all have liberal (to put it mildly) minimum ages for marriage: i.e, zero.

This doesn’t, however, account for worldwide prevalence. Here, economic imperatives trump legal/religious ones. In reality, it doesn’t matter what religion girls are. Marriage is about security - economic security, family and blood-line security, and ultimately the security of the population.

Poor countries produce more children (but have higher infant mortality). Children provide security in old age. Sons bring in wages and daughters provide dowries, domestic labour and aged care.

The reasons Muhammed gave for marrying his child wife were about her own security. In agrarian societies, the protection of women and girls is crucial for the maintenance of the population and (domestic) economy.

Which is then one of the arguments against third world immigration - they ARE different and will not leave their customs and outlook at the border.

The developing world is currently undergoing the most rapid period of migration and urbanization in human history. How could this possibly be an argument against third world immgration?

Unless- ah. You’re trying to change the subject.

Jolly good, old boy.

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« Last Edit: Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:07pm by Karnal »

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Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #370 - Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:48pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:00pm:

The developing world is currently undergoing the most rapid period of migration and urbanization in human history. How could this possibly be an argument against third world immgration?

Unless- ah. You’re trying to change the subject.

Jolly good, old boy.

As long as it is INTERNAL migration, we are all for it.

Once they are culturally up to scratch, we can talk about international migration. Until then, it's madness to advocate or allow culturally 'non-judgemental' movement across borders.

.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95930 Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #371 - Feb 27^th, 2014 at 12:08am Gone off Muslim/Hindu/Christian child marriages, have we? Returned to your little pot of pickled stools. Alas, you must have migrated here internally - from Balogney. Your pot overfloweth, dear boy.
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Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #372 - Feb 27^th, 2014 at 7:28am

Was there a hindu/christian child marriage scandal in the west, defended on hindu/christian grounds? It eluded me. Please refer.

As for the pickled sh!te, your reactionary, fuddy-duddy old marxist dogma takes us always to some such sh!te as you forever try to do the "Islam has nuffin' to do wiv nuffin'" tapdance, especially when Muslims themselves declare in the most forthright manner that it is indeed Islam that motivates them.

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #373 - Feb 27^th, 2014 at 7:56am

Yadda.....
Quote:

Why is it, that we still see so many stories

of members of the moslem community in the UK, who still take their < 16 years old daughters out of the UK, for a 'holiday' back to their homeland village, expressly to compel their young daughter to marry someone she does not know/has never met, and possibly cannot even speak the same language with ?

Google;
uk muslim girl forced marriage

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:34am:

how prevalent is it actually Y?

Do you have any evidence other than anecdotes? Notice how many non-muslim nations were in that list of Soren's?

Within Australia....

"Shame of our child brides: Court hears how woman was raped and beaten as it’s revealed hundreds are forced into arranged and unregistered marriages across NSW
...Eman Sharobeem from the Immigrant Women’s Health Service said hundreds of children as young as 11 were being sent overseas to be married after being “shopped” on Facebook. “It’s far more prevalent and well-known than people think,” she said."

#1,

Quote:

Shame of our child brides: Court hears how woman was raped and beaten as it’s revealed hundreds are forced into arranged and unregistered marriages across NSW

Exclusive by Padraic Murphy
The Daily Telegraph
February 12, 2014 1:56PM

....TERRIFYING EPIDEMIC OF CHILD BRIDES

Exclusive by Alicia Woods

HUNDREDS of underage teenagers are living in unregistered defacto marriages in NSW — and pressure is mounting for state and federal authorities to investigate illegal unions.

....Eman Sharobeem from the Immigrant Women’s Health Service said hundreds of children as young as 11 were being sent overseas to be married after being “shopped” on Facebook. “It’s far more prevalent and well-known than people think,” she said.

....“Every young girl in NSW should have the opportunity to make her own choices about her future, and underage marriage is completely unacceptable,” Ms Goward said.

“It doesn’t matter if the arrangement is religious or cultural, if the law in this state says it is illegal, parents and the community need to accept that and abide by it.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/shame-of-our-child-brides-court-hears-...

#2,

Quote:

Multiculturalism's Child Brides

by Mark Durie
Quadrant Online
February 26, 2014

The Daily Telegraph has reported an 'epidemic' of young girls becoming 'child brides' or being in de facto relationships in NSW. The state Community Services Minister, Pru Goward, commented "I understand there are actually a significant number of unlawful, unregistered marriages to under-aged girls in NSW, particularly in western Sydney, southwest Sydney and the Blue Mountains."

....The proliferation of unregistered religious marriages in recent years is a sign that the Australian authorities need to do much more to enforce the provisions of the Australian Marriage Act.

....The Imams Council also stated that 'any religion … should not be held accountable for violations by its followers.'

....To treat Christian and non-Christian marriages differently disrespects non-Christian religions because their unions are considered 'non-marriages,' and not even 'void' marriages. More importantly, it puts the women who enter such unions at risk because the failure of the state to regulate their marriages makes them vulnerable to the very abuses which the centuries-old marriage laws were meant to to prevent.

http://www.meforum.org/3775/child-brides

+++

Yadda wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:30am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 10:12am:

Surely if contemporary muslim nations adhered to this alleged prophetic example of no mminimum age, then that would be reflected in current laws yes?

So why is it then that all but 3 out of 50 something muslim countries (according to this list) have a minimum age that is over 16?

gandalf,

Do moslems, always obey local secular law ?

+++

gandalf,

Doesn't the local moslem community have a responsibility TO ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE the members of its own community - every moslem who lives within Australia - to obey local laws, always ?

Doesn't the moslem community have a responsibility TO ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE members of its own community to obey local laws, always - and to do this always, and not just when local laws do not conflict with ISLAMIC law ????

gandalf,

Why is it, that wherever moslems live in the world [within non-ISLAMIC jurisdictions], a substantial number of moslems ENGAGE IN LAWLESSNESS AND ACTIVELY FLOUT LOCAL LAWS, AND ENGAGE IN LAWLESS BEHAVIOUR ?

gandalf,

Is it because moslems are ignorant, about local laws ?

Or is it because moslems, themselves, have intentionally, and deceitfully, and disrespectfully, decided to flout local laws, AND ENGAGE IN LAWLESS BEHAVIOUR ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #374 - Feb 27^th, 2014 at 8:08am

Yadda wrote on Feb 27^th, 2014 at 7:56am:

gandalf,

Why is it, that wherever moslems live in the world [within non-ISLAMIC jurisdictions], a substantial number of moslems ENGAGE IN LAWLESSNESS AND ACTIVELY FLOUT LOCAL LAWS, AND ENGAGE IN LAWLESS BEHAVIOUR ?

gandalf,

Is it because moslems are ignorant, about local laws ?

Or is it because moslems, themselves, have intentionally, and deceitfully, and disrespectfully, decided to flout local laws, AND ENGAGE IN LAWLESS BEHAVIOUR ?

gandalf,

Can you understand why many of us non-moslems, believe that moslems cannot live harmoniously with non-moslems, and cannot live peacefully with non-moslems within a non-moslem jurisdiction ?

Can you understand why many of us non-moslems, see the abhorrent and LAWLESS behaviour of moslems among us, and are repulsed by their presence among us ?

gandalf,

Do you believe that we non-moslems should be characterised as being 'intolerant' people ?
[...just because we abhor [blatant] moslem LAWLESSNESS among us] ?

+++

Psalms 5:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

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« Last Edit: Feb 27^th, 2014 at 8:17am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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