Australian Politics Forum - underage marriage in Sydney

Baronvonrort

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #405 - Feb 28^th, 2014 at 10:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 8:10pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 7:56pm:

Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old girl. Muslims are always attempting to justify pedophilia in some way.

Evidence here would be information from the sources that indicate that this 26 year old man himself invoked a religious justification. Or that any other specific example of pedophilic marriage in the muslim community invoked a religious justification. You have none.

What is the minimum age for marriage in the homeland of Islam which is Saudi Arabia, do they even have a minimum age for children to get married?

What is the minimum age for children to get married in Yemen, do they even have one, did bearded nutjobs who preach Islam say those who oppose child brides are apostates, does Yemen have the death penalty for apostasy?

Did Khomeni lower the minimum age for children to get married after the Islamic revolution in 1979?

How many sheep/goats/donkeys did a child bride cost in Afghanistan?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #406 - Feb 28^th, 2014 at 10:47pm

Quote:

Evidence here would be information from the sources that indicate that this 26 year old man himself invoked a religious justification. Or that any other specific example of pedophilic marriage in the muslim community invoked a religious justification. You have none.

I have every Muslim on this board attempting to justify pedophilia in some way.

Nothing to do with Islam of course. They just all happen to be pedophile sympathisers. And Muslims.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Pete Waldo

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #407 - Feb 28^th, 2014 at 10:54pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 10:31pm:

.....did bearded nutjobs who preach Islam say those who oppose child brides are apostates.....

Certainly nobody could support any kind of argument against child brides, at least down to 6 years old:

Narrated 'aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Bukhari Book #62, Hadith #64)

Consummating at 9 doesn't preclude "thighing" before then (all the way down to infancy according to some clerics):
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390658615
Here's a portrait of that 53 year old splashing in the tub with his bride:

Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Book #6, Hadith #298)

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Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #408 - Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:00pm

freediver wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 7:39am:

freediver wrote on Feb 25^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Gandalf do you have any tips how the Australian Muslim community can confront this issue while being sensitive to the religious beliefs of Muslims?

Sure - you tell them not to marry children - because its completely contradictory to, and forbidden by islam.

Very simple.

You think Muslims should confront this issue by lying about Islam? How is that going to help?

Constant mockery, eh FD?

I’ll let you in on a secret: the marriage of child brides within Islam is not paedophilia. It’s the subjugation of women.

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Pete Waldo

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #409 - Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:07pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:00pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 7:39am:

freediver wrote on Feb 25^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Gandalf do you have any tips how the Australian Muslim community can confront this issue while being sensitive to the religious beliefs of Muslims?

Sure - you tell them not to marry children - because its completely contradictory to, and forbidden by islam.

Very simple.

You think Muslims should confront this issue by lying about Islam? How is that going to help?

Constant mockery, eh FD?

How is FD mocking when he is suggesting that one would have to lie in order to claim ".....its completely contradictory to, and forbidden by islam.", when Muhammad whom his followers emulate married a 6 year old, thus licensing the same for his followers? What Islam based argument can be brought against their "prophet's" own behavior? How can a child bride be "contradictory to" Islam when Muhammad himself married a 6 year old?

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« Last Edit: Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:13pm by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #410 - Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:12pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:07pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:00pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 7:39am:

freediver wrote on Feb 25^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Gandalf do you have any tips how the Australian Muslim community can confront this issue while being sensitive to the religious beliefs of Muslims?

Sure - you tell them not to marry children - because its completely contradictory to, and forbidden by islam.

Very simple.

You think Muslims should confront this issue by lying about Islam? How is that going to help?

Constant mockery, eh FD?

How is FD mocking when he is simply stating that one would have to lie about Islam to speak against child brides, when Muhammad whom his followers emulate married a 6 year old, thus licensing the same for his followers? What Islam based argument can be brought against their "prophet's" own behavior? Where is it "forbidden" in Islam?

How do you account for Mormons and Christian cults using the example of Old Testament prophets to promote incest, child marriage and polygamy?

I’m interested in what you think of this, Pete.

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Pete Waldo

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #411 - Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:22pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:12pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:07pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:00pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 26^th, 2014 at 7:39am:

freediver wrote on Feb 25^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

Gandalf do you have any tips how the Australian Muslim community can confront this issue while being sensitive to the religious beliefs of Muslims?

Sure - you tell them not to marry children - because its completely contradictory to, and forbidden by islam.

Very simple.

You think Muslims should confront this issue by lying about Islam? How is that going to help?

Constant mockery, eh FD?

How is FD mocking when he is simply stating that one would have to lie about Islam to speak against child brides, when Muhammad whom his followers emulate married a 6 year old, thus licensing the same for his followers? What Islam based argument can be brought against their "prophet's" own behavior? Where is it "forbidden" in Islam?

How do you account for Mormons and Christian cults using the example of Old Testament prophets to promote incest, child marriage and polygamy?

I’m interested in what you think of this, Pete.

The reason you tried to divert the subject is because FD is absolutely correct.

Regarding cults, you said it yourself - they're cults. Born-again spirit-filled scripture-grounded Christians do not engage in such.
Why do the Ahmadiyya Muslims believe in a prophet after Muhammad (who so misguided them they practice a peaceful version of Islam)? Same answer to your irrelevant, empty and conspicuously diversionary question - it's a cult.

Regarding incest:
"Nicolai Sennels is a Danish psychologist who has done extensive research into a little-known problem in the Muslim world: the disastrous results of Muslim inbreeding brought about by the marriage of first-cousins.
This practice, which has been prohibited in the Judeo-Christian tradition since the days of Moses, was sanctioned by Muhammad and has been going on now for 50 generations (1,400 years) in the Muslim world."

"According to Sennels, close to half of all Muslims in the world are inbred. In Pakistan, the numbers approach 70%. Even in England, more than half of Pakistani immigrants are married to their first cousins, and in Denmark the number of inbred Pakistani immigrants is around 40%.
The numbers are equally devastating in other important Muslim countries: 67% in Saudi Arabia, 64% in Jordan and Kuwait, 63% in Sudan, 60% in Iraq, and 54% in the United Arab Emirates and Qatar."

Why don't you try an answer this time, rather than another diversion:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:07pm:

How is FD mocking when he is suggesting that one would have to lie in order to claim ".....its completely contradictory to, and forbidden by islam.", when Muhammad whom his followers emulate married a 6 year old, thus licensing the same for his followers? What Islam based argument can be brought against their "prophet's" own behavior? How can a child bride be "contradictory to" Islam when Muhammad himself married a 6 year old?

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« Last Edit: Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:49pm by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #412 - Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:57pm

I fully agree that they’re fringe-dwelling cults, Pete, but they profess to be Christians and their beliefs sit within the Judeo Christian tradition. They justify their "family values" from a Biblical perspective. They believe modern Christians are the fallen ones, and that they’re following the true path of the prophets.

I’m not making this up - some Mormons and a variety of crank Christian doomsday cults profess this. An American cult leader was arrested only last year. He has young girls praying for him - some are "married" to him (in the spirit, apparently).

This doesn’t excuse forced or underage marriages within Islam, but this debate is not one-sided. The old boy has posted the stats - Christian countries share underage marriage with Islamic countries. The theocratic Islamic countries with no age of consent do not even rate in the top 20.

And we’re currently having a Royal Commission (a state legal hearing) in Australia into institutionalized child sexual abuse. This is abuse by the church - with, so far, over 30,000 victim’s statements and submissions. We’re talking child sexual abuse - by priests, ministers, teachers, carers and wardens - all employed by the church.

These aren’t cults or end-time fanatics. This is the Catholic, Anglican, and other mainstream protestant churches. As far as I’m aware, other organizations - the armed forces, juvenile detention centres or public schools - aren’t even making the grade. The allegations, Pete, are all against born-again Christians, or their employees.

This is not a diversion, it’s the status quo. One or two Muslims have been charged in Australia for marrying 12 year olds. But I’ve lost count of the number of priests that have been shipped off to Ireland and Rome.

How do you account for this, Pete? Do you think it’s all just a strange aberration?

Or, like many are starting to realize, there is something quite sexual in sexually organized communities and institutions?

What do you think?

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Pete Waldo

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #413 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 12:10am

Karnal wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:57pm:

This is not a diversion, it’s the status quo. One or two Muslims have been charged in Australia for marrying 12 year olds.

Your whole post is as much of a diversion as it is irrelevant, once again. I'll answer your question regarding the independent actions of men and extra-scriptural or scripture-contrary institutions, and, after you provide a specific and substantive response to mine, rather than wasting my time with yet another diversion. If your posts continue to demonstrate a lack of capacity to engage in an exchange I will not bother responding.

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:07pm:

How is FD mocking when he is suggesting that one would have to lie in order to claim ".....its completely contradictory to, and forbidden by islam.", when Muhammad whom his followers emulate married a 6 year old, thus licensing the same for his followers? What Islam based argument can be brought against their "prophet's" own behavior? How can a child bride be "contradictory to" Islam when Muhammad himself married a 6 year old?

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« Last Edit: Mar 1^st, 2014 at 12:33am by Pete Waldo »

Truth can never be told so as to be understood and not be believed. ~ William Blake

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #414 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 12:32am

Pete Waldo wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 12:10am:

I'll answer your question regarding extra-scriptural or scripture-contrary institutions, after you provide a specific and substantive response to mine, rather than wasting my time with another diversion.

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 11:07pm:

How is FD mocking when he is suggesting that one would have to lie in order to claim ".....its completely contradictory to, and forbidden by islam.", when Muhammad whom his followers emulate married a 6 year old, thus licensing the same for his followers? What Islam based argument can be brought against their "prophet's" own behavior? How can a child bride be "contradictory to" Islam when Muhammad himself married a 6 year old?

Don’t worry about it then, Pete. I can’t make head or tail of your question/s. If I could, I’d answer it.

If you want me to castigate child marriage in some quarters of Islam, I will. But as I’ve said, I don’t think it’s paedophilia, but the subjugation of women and girls. The most primative Islamic societies want girls to be invisible. They treat women as temptresses, and as such, they do everything they can to overpower them, sexually, physically, and mentally.

My question to you is not asking you to rat on your religion. I’m interested in how you see your religion’s expression of sexuality. Power, it seems to me, is intimate with sex. Sex scandals are commonplace in the church, as they are in politics.

This isn’t a secular issue, but a human one.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #415 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:58am

freediver wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 10:47pm:

Quote:

Evidence here would be information from the sources that indicate that this 26 year old man himself invoked a religious justification. Or that any other specific example of pedophilic marriage in the muslim community invoked a religious justification. You have none.

I have every Muslim on this board attempting to justify pedophilia in some way.

Nothing to do with Islam of course. They just all happen to be pedophile sympathisers. And Muslims.

The very best you can do is argue that muslims justify an instance of pedophilia in the 7th century. That is not saying muslims think child marriage is ok in the 21st century because of this 7th century example. Not even close.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #416 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 8:59am

Quote:

The very best you can do is argue that muslims justify an instance of pedophilia in the 7th century.

Not a single one of them confined their justification of pedophilia to a single instance in the 7th century. Not even you. And none of them can bring themselves to say that Muhammed's example should stay in the 7th century, where it belongs.

Are you seriously suggesting that if an Imam solemnises a marriage to a 12 year old girl, that does not mean he has a religious justification for it, unless he explicitly announces it on national TV?

Quote:

I’ll let you in on a secret: the marriage of child brides within Islam is not paedophilia. It’s the subjugation of women.

Of course. 12 year old women. 9 year old women. 6 year old women. Are you sure you aren't a Muslim Karnal? Perhaps you are a feminist?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 95929 Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #417 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:01am Yes, Y, I’m a MusLim. Falah saifd we are all Muslims, isn’t it. Have you reported these paedophiles to Ray Hadley yet? He’ll need to know.
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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #418 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 1:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 8:16pm:

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/alleged-underage-marriage-uncovered-when...

Astonished that no one has posted this yet.

This is of serious concern which warrants some serious level-headed discussion (fat chance I know). As both the Islamic health service and the state government acknowledge, this is "far more prevalent and well-known than people think".

The islamic community in Sydney needs to take responsibility here and tackle this disturbing issue head on.

Gandalf, can you explain how the Islamic community of Sydney should take responsibility and tackle this issue head on at the same time as insisting it is nothing to do with Islam and they share no responsibility for it?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Stratos

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #419 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 1:58pm

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Gandalf, can you explain how the Islamic community of Sydney should take responsibility and tackle this issue head on at the same time as insisting it is nothing to do with Islam and they share no responsibility for it?

Has anyone actually come forward to defend the people involved? If they have no one has posted here

meanwhile, Muslims groups are quick to condemn it.

Quote:

Muslim leaders have expressed their concern at the so-called marriage and the Grand Mufti of Australia, Ibrahim Abu Mohamed, said it should be ''rejected and condemned from a legal and ethical perspective''.

Quote:

Muslim Women's Association executive officer Maha Abdo said ''there is no religious leader, imam or scholar in Australia that we work with that would conduct an Islamic wedding ceremony that involved an under-age child.''

Quote:

''There is nothing to hide here. This sort of behaviour is against Australian law and the Muslim community does not encourage or condone such a union,'' she said.
''We, as Australian Muslim women, like the rest of Australia are deeply concerned for the welfare of the young girl.''

Quote:

''Communities across all faiths should collaborate alongside the government to ensure such incidents do not occur in Australia.''

Seems like a pretty widespread condemnation.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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