Australian Politics Forum - underage marriage in Sydney

freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #420 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 2:59pm

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Has anyone actually come forward to defend the people involved? If they have no one has posted here

TC has posted here recently in defense of sex with little girls. Even Gandalf had a go.

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Muslim leaders have expressed their concern at the so-called marriage and the Grand Mufti of Australia, Ibrahim Abu Mohamed, said it should be ''rejected and condemned from a legal and ethical perspective''.

That's the way. Don't mention religion at all.

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Muslim Women's Association executive officer Maha Abdo said ''there is no religious leader, imam or scholar in Australia that we work with that would conduct an Islamic wedding ceremony that involved an under-age child.'

Great, so the women refuse to work with the pedophile enablers. Does that count as head-on?

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Seems like a pretty widespread condemnation.

Sounds like you had to go looking, and had to make do with the consolation prize. If it is so broadly condemned, how is it that this guy did not even realise it was illegal until after he walked into a centrelink office to get a handout so his child bride could go to school?

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #421 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 3:27pm

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 8:59am:

Of course. 12 year old women. 9 year old women. 6 year old women. Are you sure you aren't a Muslim Karnal? Perhaps you are a feminist?

Perhaps you would like to offer something constructive to this debate, FD. The marriage of young girls in traditional societies is not about sexual desire for children. In many cases, the groom has no say in who he’s marrying.

Child marriage is about the ownership transfer of women/girls from one family to another. It’s a contract between two sets of parents.

In traditional Islamic societies, just as it is in traditional Hindu societies, women and girls are domestic property. Marriage sends them from their parents’ household into their in-laws’ household, regardless of their age.

Girls too young for domestic/farm labour or child bearing are less productive. The "value" of young girls in many cultures is their virginity, but I doubt this would be as prized in a culture where girls’ virginity is rigourously policed by the father.

In East Asia, for example, virginity is so prized Nepalese and Cambodian girls can fetch ten to twenty thousand as prostitutes. In traditional Islamic and Hindu societies, virginity is expected as part of the marriage contract. In many places, if a girl loses her virginity, even through rape, she is killed by her father and/or brothers. Wedding night sheets with blood stains are still hung out for the neighbours in many places, Hindu and Islamic cultures alike.

This is the difference between "paedophilia" and rigid patriarchal societies. It’s not about sexual desire, but the control and domination of women and girls.

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« Last Edit: Mar 1^st, 2014 at 3:35pm by Karnal »

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Stratos

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #422 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 3:41pm

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 2:59pm:

Sounds like you had to go looking

First news article I found actually.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 2:59pm:

That's the way. Don't mention religion at all.

So the grand Mufti making a statement for something to be "rejected and condemned" doesn't count as religion?

What planet do you live on?

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #423 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 3:43pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 3:27pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 8:59am:

Of course. 12 year old women. 9 year old women. 6 year old women. Are you sure you aren't a Muslim Karnal? Perhaps you are a feminist?

Perhaps you would like to offer something constructive to this debate, FD. The marriage of young girls in traditional societies is not about sexual desire for children. In many cases, the groom has no say in who he’s marrying.

Child marriage is about the ownership transfer of women/girls from one family to another. It’s a contract between two sets of parents.

In traditional Islamic societies, just as it is in traditional Hindu societies, women and girls are domestic property. Marriage sends them from their parents’ household into their in-laws’ household, regardless of their age.

Girls too young for domestic/farm labour or child bearing are less productive. The "value" of young girls in many cultures is their virginity, but I doubt this would be as prized in a culture where girls’ virginity is rigourously policed by the father.

In East Asia, for example, virginity is so prized Nepalese and Cambodian girls can fetch ten to twenty thousand as prostitutes. In traditional Islamic and Hindu societies, virginity is expected as part of the marriage contract. In many places, if a girl loses her virginity, even through rape, she is killed by her father and/or brothers. Wedding night sheets with blood stains are still hung out for the neighbours in many places, Hindu and Islamic cultures alike.

This is the difference between "paedophilia" and rigid patriarchal societies. It’s not about sexual desire, but the control and domination of women and girls.

Don't want it here, whatever your excuse.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #424 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:14pm

Soren wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 3:43pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 3:27pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 8:59am:

Of course. 12 year old women. 9 year old women. 6 year old women. Are you sure you aren't a Muslim Karnal? Perhaps you are a feminist?

Perhaps you would like to offer something constructive to this debate, FD. The marriage of young girls in traditional societies is not about sexual desire for children. In many cases, the groom has no say in who he’s marrying.

Child marriage is about the ownership transfer of women/girls from one family to another. It’s a contract between two sets of parents.

In traditional Islamic societies, just as it is in traditional Hindu societies, women and girls are domestic property. Marriage sends them from their parents’ household into their in-laws’ household, regardless of their age.

Girls too young for domestic/farm labour or child bearing are less productive. The "value" of young girls in many cultures is their virginity, but I doubt this would be as prized in a culture where girls’ virginity is rigourously policed by the father.

In East Asia, for example, virginity is so prized Nepalese and Cambodian girls can fetch ten to twenty thousand as prostitutes. In traditional Islamic and Hindu societies, virginity is expected as part of the marriage contract. In many places, if a girl loses her virginity, even through rape, she is killed by her father and/or brothers. Wedding night sheets with blood stains are still hung out for the neighbours in many places, Hindu and Islamic cultures alike.

This is the difference between "paedophilia" and rigid patriarchal societies. It’s not about sexual desire, but the control and domination of women and girls.

Don't want it here, whatever your excuse.

You think this is an excuse? OF COURSE we don’t want it here. Everyone’s condemning the sort of marriage I’ve described above, including Muslim community leaders.

Most underage defacto relationships in Australia, however, are consensual. These are the census reported "marriages" Pru Goward is throwing into a debate focused on Islam.

Don’t want it here, regardless of the excuse? Tell us what you’d do about it.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #425 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:51pm

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Perhaps you would like to offer something constructive to this debate, FD. The marriage of young girls in traditional societies is not about sexual desire for children.

Except of course, when it is.

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Child marriage is about the ownership transfer of women/girls from one family to another. It’s a contract between two sets of parents.

Yes Abu spoke at length about how great this is.

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So the grand Mufti making a statement for something to be "rejected and condemned" doesn't count as religion?

He listed what grounds it should be rejected on. It is interesting that a grand mufti would call for something to be rejected on non-religious grounds. His rejection is no more religious than the weetbix he has for breakfast. He is calling for Muslims to obey local laws. He is not saying anything at all about Islam, and made the effort to point this out.

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You think this is an excuse? OF COURSE we don’t want it here. Everyone’s condemning the sort of marriage I’ve described above, including Muslim community leaders.

Not everyone.

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Don’t want it here, regardless of the excuse? Tell us what you’d do about it.

Gandalf is full of suggestions. Muslims should take responsibility for the problem and tackle it head on, by insisting it is nothing to do with Islam.

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Stratos

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #426 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:00pm

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:51pm:

He listed what grounds it should be rejected on.

Oh my bad, so religion has nothing to do with ethics. You must have brought your extra large longbow to this discussion.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:51pm:

His rejection is no more religious than the weetbix he has for breakfast

Except he was speaking as a Muslim leader about a particular incident, denouncing and rejecting it.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:51pm:

He is not saying anything at all about Islam, and made the effort to point this out

Where?

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #427 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:19pm

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:51pm:

Gandalf is full of suggestions. Muslims should take responsibility for the problem and tackle it head on, by insisting it is nothing to do with Islam.

Perhaps you’d like to read the Telegraph article everyone’s posting, FD. It quotes census statistics of underage defacto "marriages" all over NSW.

Should Muslims take responsibility for non-Muslim defacto marriages?

You will, no doubt, call this a shameless diversion, despite the fact that this is the research the source of this thread is quoting.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #428 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:24pm

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Oh my bad, so religion has nothing to do with ethics.

That is why he said ethics, not Islam.

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You must have brought your extra large longbow to this discussion.

I am just telling what he said.

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Except he was speaking as a Muslim leader about a particular incident, denouncing and rejecting it.

Yes it is a good start. Muslims should obey our laws, even if it conflicts with their religion. Even Abu said this.

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Perhaps you’d like to read the Telegraph article everyone’s posting, FD. It quotes census statistics of underage defacto "marriages" all over NSW.

Sure, post a link. Or tell me what thread it is in.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #429 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:28pm The impeccable FD logic: - muslim cleric condoning an under-age marriage = a religiously motivated sanction - muslim cleric condemning under-age marriage = a condemnation that has nothing to do with his religion
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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #430 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:43pm

Stratos wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:00pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:51pm:

He listed what grounds it should be rejected on.

Oh my bad, so religion has nothing to do with ethics. You must have brought your extra large longbow to this discussion.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:51pm:

His rejection is no more religious than the weetbix he has for breakfast

Except he was speaking as a Muslim leader about a particular incident, denouncing and rejecting it.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 4:51pm:

He is not saying anything at all about Islam, and made the effort to point this out

Where?

For FD, it only counts if Muslim leaders denounce and condemn Islam. Nothing less than a full declaration of war will do.

For Y and Pete, they have to denounce Islam, declare war and convert to Karmic Khristianity.

For the old boy, nothing counts. If they join our side, no good. Live under totalitarian regimes, no good. Depose their dictators, no good. Call for demokracy, no good. Live with our dictators, no good. Have Westminster parliamentary and legal systems, no good. Bleed each other to death, no good. Accept our bombs with thanks, no good. Stay at home and fight, no good. Suicide, no good. Leave, definitely no good.

That’s the beauty of the Muselman, you see. He really is the perfect enemy.

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« Last Edit: Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:51pm by Karnal »

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95921 Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #431 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:47pm Yes, there’s certainly something for everyone in Islam.
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Stratos

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #432 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:28pm:

The impeccable FD logic:

- muslim cleric condoning an under-age marriage = a religiously motivated sanction

- muslim cleric condemning under-age marriage = a condemnation that has nothing to do with his religion

Tongue

Basically this Freediver, your train of thought is biased and pathetic. I'll not wait for you to try and find some actual evidence to suggest that Australian Muslims are somehow OK with this marriage, just continue to flail around and try and make it look like widespread condemnation is not related to Islam, and that a lack of evidence makes it a clear cut case.

heres an extra interesting piece of data:

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majority of 15- to 17-year-olds married or in a de facto marriage were born in Australia. Of those who identified as married, 57 per cent identified as Christian and 6 per cent were Muslim. About 30 per cent did not state their religion or identified as no religion

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/legal-affairs/underage-marriage-in-remo...

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95921 Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #433 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 6:03pm Yes, Stavros, but Muhammed married a 6 year old about 1400 years ago. That’s got to bump up the Muslim underage marriage statistics a bit.
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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #434 - Mar 1^st, 2014 at 6:46pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:28pm:

The impeccable FD logic:

- muslim cleric condoning an under-age marriage = a religiously motivated sanction

- muslim cleric condemning under-age marriage = a condemnation that has nothing to do with his religion

Tongue

I can say that because the cleric himself pointed out that it was not about Islam.

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That’s got to bump up the Muslim underage marriage statistics a bit.

Yes Karnal, it will.

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Basically this Freediver, your train of thought is biased and pathetic. I'll not wait for you to try and find some actual evidence to suggest that Australian Muslims are somehow OK with this marriage

Does the fact that Australian Muslims participated in, condoned, and solemnised the marriage not count as evidence that Australian Muslims are OK with this marriage?

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and 6 per cent were Muslim

Would you describe that as over-representation?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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