Australian Politics Forum - underage marriage in Sydney

Karnal Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 96194 Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #465 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 2:46am FD, do you believe what Y said?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #466 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 8:16am Karnal wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 12:03am: If the Muselman doesn’’t say this goes against Islam, you find him guilty. If he does, you question the validity of his statement. Sums it up to a tee.
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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #467 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 10:57am

Gandalf, can you explain how it goes against all Islamic teachings? Is it unreasonable to be skeptical of a Muslim who claims that Muhammed's own actions go against all Islamic teachings? You have made similar claims yourself, but have not explained the apparent contradiction.

Quote:

Which bit? That he’s shocked such marriages occur in Australia?

This bit: as it goes against all Islamic teachings

Quote:

If the Muselman doesn’’t say this goes against Islam, you find him guilty. If he does, you question the validity of his statement.

So you do know what I was asking you after all? Perhaps now you can give a straight answer?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #468 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 11:41am

Ah. I see.

FD, are you ssying Islamic "spokesperson", Kayser Trad, is notspeaking on behalf of Islamic teachings? Are you saying he’s lying about Islam, and in so doing, incurring the wrath of all those violent paedophiles?

Gee, that’s brave. You, Y and the old boy predicted this when you said a cowardly Muslim would never put himself at risk and speak out against Islam like this. What do you call it? Apostacy.

Looks like there’s going to be a beheading, FD. It’s not going to be pretty.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #469 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 11:49am

Quote:

FD, are you ssying Islamic "spokesperson", Kayser Trad, is notspeaking on behalf of Islamic teachings?

Muhammed married a 6 year old girl and had sex with her when she was 9. He was about 50 at the time. I cannot understand how a 26 year old marrying a 12 year old goes against all Islamic teachings.

Can you?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #470 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 12:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 8:16am:

Karnal wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 12:03am:

If the Muselman doesn’’t say this goes against Islam, you find him guilty. If he does, you question the validity of his statement.

Sums it up to a tee.

Oh really ?

gandalf,

PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

And what do you post gandalf, about persons who criticise such 'demonstrations' [by moslems] ?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 10:36am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 28^th, 2014 at 10:24am:

In some unguarded moments, yes, moslems do reveal what is true.

Those protestors, straight from the 'islam4peace' bus, had not the slightest inkling whatsoever that waving beheading placards down the main street of London would be seized upon by islamophobes the world over, and posted ad-infinitum on islamophobic boards. They just thought it was a closed-door private meeting between muslims.

As you say, a completely unguarded moment.

So, gandalf, .......it is OK for moslems on the streets of Western nations to display placards threatening to murder anyone who 'insults' ISLAM [insults ISLAM, by scrutinising or by satirising ISLAM's folly].

But let anyone censure such behaviour [i.e. the threats of murder, by moslems], and let anyone try to make others aware of such behaviour [i.e. the threats of murder, by moslems],
and gandalf will characterise those persons as 'islamophobes'.

???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #471 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm Yadda wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 12:09pm: PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ..... Only mentioned placards, failed to mention use of spoken words. yadda condones extremist Muslim threats, as long as they are not in placard form.
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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21842 A cat with a view	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #472 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm Karnal wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 2:46am: FD, do you believe what Y said? K, Why shouldn't FD believe what i posted, post #463, #464 ? Have i given FD any cause to not believe what i have declared in those two posts ?
Back to top	"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31 IP Logged

Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21842 A cat with a view	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #473 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 12:22pm Stratos wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm: Yadda wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 12:09pm: PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ..... Only mentioned placards, failed to mention use of spoken words. yadda condones extremist Muslim threats, as long as they are not in placard form. What !!!! ?
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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #474 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 12:35pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:32pm:

Uh oh, looks like Kaiser Trad missed the "don't mention the war" memo:

Quote:

''We are shocked that such things could occur in Australia. No licensed celebrant is allowed to conduct a marriage of this nature as it goes against all Islamic teachings.''

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/child-brides-marriage-was-permitted-by-father-say-police-20140208-328k7.html#ixzz2uiJEp7gN

Quote:

Keysar Trad, the founder of the Islamic Friendship Society, said: ''We are shocked that such things could occur in Australia. No licensed celebrant is allowed to conduct a marriage of this nature as it goes against all Islamic teachings.''

gandalf,

You posted Trad's comment, you are a moslem.

A 26 year old moslem man, marries a 12 year old girl.

Care to detail to us, how, "a marriage of this nature....goes against all Islamic teachings."
???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #475 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 1:14pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 12:35pm:

gandalf,

You posted Trad's comment, you are a moslem.

A 26 year old moslem man, marries a 12 year old girl.

Care to detail to us, how, "a marriage of this nature....goes against all Islamic teachings."
???

gandalf,

Care to detail how, "a marriage of this nature....goes against all Islamic teachings."

Or must we 'infidels', just assume that this statement by Keysar Trad was just another instance of moslem lies/deceit [as deflection of the widespread community censure of the moslem community] ?

+++

WHY, DO MOSLEMS LIE TO US ???

Taqiyya

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

google

Google;
taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #476 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 4:59pm

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 10:57am:

Gandalf, can you explain how it goes against all Islamic teachings? Is it unreasonable to be skeptical of a Muslim who claims that Muhammed's own actions go against all Islamic teachings? You have made similar claims yourself, but have not explained the apparent contradiction.

I have explained it FD - multiple times.

eg:

Quote:

I believe the prophet's morality can only be viewed in two layers. There is absolutely a universality to his morality, but it is abstract: do not abuse women, ensure that marriage is about mutual love and respect, tolerate opposing views etc. However this universal morality can only exist within specific contexts - contexts which are vastly different depending on the time and place. This is what I tried to touch on with my arguments about the morality of marrying a post-pubescent 9 year old. Look at it this way: the "universal" morality on this issue is that women must be "mature" before consummation of marriage. However what constitutes "mature" is completely meaningless outside the specific contexts of the societal norms of a specific time and place. Thats why you can have the apparent contradiction of marrying a 9 year old being both moral and immoral depending on when and where it happens - and *STILL* be able to call it a universal morality. Since in *BOTH* cases, the same universal morality applies - namely that the girl has to be psychologically and physically mature and of course willing enough according to the societal norms of the time.

It is simplistic at best, and dishonest at worst to rail against Muhammad for having sex with a "child" purely on the basis of her numerical age. As I have pointed out many many times, a girl's maturity is not determined by how many years she has been on the planet - outside any sort of cultural context.

To put it real simply, a post-pubescent 9 year old in Muhammad's day was a lot more mature, and therefore more suitable for marriage, than a 9 year old in today's society. Thats why muslims should condemn any contemporary marriage of post-pubescent 9 year old girls - or 12 or 14 year olds for that matter - and thats why its not contradictory to what Muhammad did.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1374112476/174#174

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #477 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 5:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 4:59pm:

To put it real simply, a post-pubescent 9 year old in Muhammad's day was a lot more mature, and therefore more suitable for marriage, than a 9 year old in today's society.

There is no direct evidence that she was post-pubescent. The only evidence you trott out is that she must have been, otherwise Muhammed would be a pedophile. All the evidence we do have points to it being highly unlikely that she was post-pubescent - both the statistical evidence, and the words and actions of Muhammed himself.

How about a modern 12 year old? Do you really think they are immature compared to Muhammed's 9 year old love interest?

There is also no evidence at all that the circumstances and context surrounding Muhammed's marriage to a 6 year old girl when he was 50 is any different to this 26 year old guy marrying a 12 year old. If anything the modern example is less extreme. The age gap is far less, and the girl herself was apparently highly motivated. The father agreed to it, but did not organise it as in Muhammed's case.

You also never explained how exactly you train a little girl to be a morally appropriate child bride. Is it something to do with playing with dolls?

So, other than saying "but it's different", how does this case actually go against everything Islam teaches? Did he beat the girl? Did her force himself upon her? Did he kill her father, leaving her homeless and destitute and with no option but to prostitute herself to him?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #478 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 7:55pm

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 5:31pm:

You also never explained how exactly you train a little girl to be a morally appropriate child bride. Is it something to do with playing with dolls?

I covered that (ie no one "trains" anyone - like its something to aspire to :p)- you refuse to listen. Just like you didn't listen - and then just plain forgot my painstaking explanation of the apparent contradiction between Muhammad's actions and islamic teachings - which you just claimed I never addressed.

FD, give me one good reason why I should go to the trouble of addressing these things if you're just going to ignore it, then 3 months down the track claim that I never addressed it in the first place? Seems like a wasted effort to me.

Lets stay focused on what this is really about: this is about freediver trying desperately to get around the fact that the vast majority of muslims are abhorred by child marriage, and want it stamped out. This is about FD putting words in muslims mouths, when he can't find the "right" quotes from muslims to defame them. This is about FD tying himself completely in knots by pointing the accusing finger at muslims when they don't specifically invoke islam when condemning child marriage - and doing exactly the same thing when muslims do.

Is child marriage a problem in the muslim community? You betcha - just as it is a problem in sections of the hindu community, and just like child abuse is shockingly ingrained in certain catholic institutions. All these problems need a constructive solution, which involves working with the members of those communities who are just as shocked and outraged by the problem as those who are outside the communities. Demonising these people not only doesn't help, it obstructs solutions and creates further divisions in society. "Addressing" this problem by pointing fingers at good-willed people and saying "ha - you can't deny that this doesn't go against islamic teaching" can only do two things 1. satiate your deep seated prejudice and 2. slap the muslim community in the face and say 'I am determined to ensure this problem remains unsolved'.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #479 - Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 8:15pm

How does it go against every other society of the time, FD? Never seen a John Wayne movie about Injuns?

If you want to chase modern Muslims for the actions of their 1400 year old forefathers, you’d better get your evidence ready for the popes, the royal families, and the architects of the entire modern world, as much it might offend your modern sensibilities and your wonderfully affected self righteous indignation.

There are no small roles, FD, only small actors.

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