Australian Politics Forum - underage marriage in Sydney

freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #510 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:11pm

Quote:

You are not asking how - not in a constructive way anyway. You just want to ask accusative, rhetorical questions which you think you already know the answers to - in order to use this as an opportunity to score points against muslims and satiate your pathological prejudice - as usual.

No Gandalf. I am actually asking how the Muslim community can confront this head on and take responsibility. I am accusing you of offering meaningless, empty rhetoric. You are avoiding the crux of the issue. You expect people to believe that a Muslim Imam conducted a Muslim wedding ceremony between two Muslims, that had nothing to do with Islam and goes against everything Islam teaches. You demand that I prove that the Imam had an Islamic justification for doing so.

Quote:

You should be trying to address it though. We all should - as citizens of a multicultural nation, we all have obligations to find solutions. Saying muslims should stop being muslim is not a solution - it is a barrier to a solution

And yet your solution seems to be to deny the role of Islam in this, and expect those Muslims who think there is an Islamic justification for it (on the grounds that Muhammed did the same thing) to simply convert to your version of Islam.

Quote:

and in that sense you are aggravating the problem

If your solution is a non-solution, then it cannot be solved without aggravation. I may be making Muslims feel uncomfortable about it, but I am not forcing them to have sex with children. I am getting people aggravated about the problem. I am not aggravating the problem, unless of course you think the problem is people talking about it.

Quote:

Besides anything else, it is profoundly immoral to demonise the vast majority of muslims who abhore this practice and want it stamped out.

You suggest that these are the people who need to take responsibility for it and tackle it head on, yet your solution is nothing more than deluding yourself about the nature of the problem.

Karnal:

Quote:

All the handwringing and excusing is about pointing out the scope of the issue, its context and its causes.

But don't mention Muhammed having sex with children and maybe this is why we have a situation where an Imam solemnised the marriage, with the father's approval?

Quote:

You would never ask how paedophile priests go against Christian teachings, depite the fact that past popes have been serial offenders and are granted divine authority by the church.

That is because it falls into the bleeding obvious category. Jesus did not go round fiddling the choir boys. Muhammed did, and Muslims often try to justify it - not excuse it, but actually explain why sex with children is OK. TC, Gandalf and Abu are cases in point. Abu in particular took a similar line to the grand mufti - that Muslims should obey our laws, even if they disagree with them.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #511 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:41pm

Sparky wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:48pm:

Sparky, the majority of defacto relationships involving underage girls are non-Muslim. This phenomenon would not even be reported if there wasn't a Muslim element to the story.

And yes, many ARE reported and investigated. If girls refuse to make a statement, the investigation goes nowhere.

In NSW, this job is done by the police/Community Services Joint Investigative Response Team, or JIRT. Their job is to investigate and substantiate the sexual abuse of minors.

Nine times out of ten, underage girls in sexual relationships refuse to make a statement. I'm surprised that the girl investigated in the Sydney case has reported 26 cases of sexual penetration.

Because of this, this case is extremely rare.

I'll take your word for it but this instance is associated with a mosque, an imam and a congregation which is rather alarming. Islam is probably being zeroed in on but it's got to stop making the news. If that was a Christian church in question it would be on here too.

True - if it was a Christian case it would definitely get a mention too. You might remember the media reports of the Children of God cult back in the 1990s. In the end, all children in the cult were removed by child protection services - as, I believe, the girl we're discussing has been.

This instance is associated with a mosque, an imam and the girl's father. Only the father is a resident of Australia - the imam and the husband have no residency status in Australia.

The husband was exposed when he reported their marriage to Centrelink. He was sent to Centrelink to obtain ID in order to enrol the girl in a new school. As he is on a student visa, he has no access to Centrelink benefits. He was there to get a letter to prove his guardianship of the girl, which he could use to enrol her in school.

The father said the girl was fully consensual, and wanted to marry. Personally, I doubt it. It looks, on the face of it, like a marriage of convenience. The guy was on a student visa, probably seeking residency in Australia.

He should have chosen an older girl.

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #512 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:32pm:

And just a point of clarification. When I wrote:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 10:30am:

What I am not "shuffling my paperwork" over is that I do not, never have, and never will condone child marriage.

I should have added and that is the only thing that is relevant to this discussion

The only evidence we have seen on "what muslims think" about this issue is that they are appalled by it and want it stopped.

Pulling them up and saying "oh but hang on, this goes against the teachings of islam" is a complete red herring *IF* there is no evidence that muslims are actually condoning and justifying it on this basis - which there isn't.

I wish that i was a mind reader.

So that i too, could know what moslems think.

But i am only able to listen to the words that come out of the lips of moslems.

And in my experience, what comes out of the lips of moslems cannot be relied upon to be the truth.

Why so ?

Because moslems have a 'holy' doctrine, instructions, on how to lie for Allah, so that moslems may 'strengthen themselves' against their enemies - in their never-ending war against those persons who are not moslems.

+++

WHY, DO MOSLEMS LIE TO US ???

Taqiyya

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

google

Google;
taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #513 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:50pm

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:11pm:

No Gandalf. I am actually asking how the Muslim community can confront this head on and take responsibility.

No really you are not. Because the sensible answer I gave you - that they educate each other and explain that this is not condoned by islam - is not an answer to you. For you, nothing short of vilifying the prophet and having muslims renounce their religion is acceptable. Thats why you are an obstacle to a solution.

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:11pm:

I am accusing you of offering meaningless, empty rhetoric.

see what I mean? Anything less that demanding muslims admit that their religion is complete bollocks is "offering meaningless,empty rhetoric". Is that constructive?

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:11pm:

You expect people to believe that a Muslim Imam conducted a Muslim wedding ceremony between two Muslims, that had nothing to do with Islam and goes against everything Islam teaches.

I'm sure the Imam thought it had everything to do with islam - but thats not the point. The point is that there is no evidence this sort of attitude is mainstream. The only evidence we have of "what muslims think" about this issue is that they abhore it and want to stamp it out. Thats why you have to tiptoe around the actual facts of the case and resort to putting words in muslims mouths to maintain your anti-islam line.

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:11pm:

And yet your solution seems to be to deny the role of Islam in this

My solution is to point out that islamic teachings do not condone this, and that muslims demonstrably agree with me. Your solution is to put words into muslims mouths to compensate for the fact that they are not saying the bigoted things you want them to.

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:11pm:

You suggest that these are the people who need to take responsibility for it and tackle it head on, yet your solution is nothing more than deluding yourself about the nature of the problem.

delusional means imagining things that do not exist in reality. If we look at the reality here, we have an issue that as K has pointed out, is not a uniquely muslim problem, and where it is a muslim problem, is met with universal condemnation and calls to tackle the issue by muslim leaders. Then if we look at what is imagined, we have an issue that is rampant and unique amongst muslims, and we have muslims pointing out that this issue shouldn't be condemned on islamic grounds.

Or in other words, the only delusion party in this debate is you.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #514 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:03pm

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:11pm:

Karnal:

Quote:

All the handwringing and excusing is about pointing out the scope of the issue, its context and its causes.

But don't mention Muhammed having sex with children and maybe this is why we have a situation where an Imam solemnised the marriage, with the father's approval?

Quote:

You would never ask how paedophile priests go against Christian teachings, depite the fact that past popes have been serial offenders and are granted divine authority by the church.

That is because it falls into the bleeding obvious category. Jesus did not go round fiddling the choir boys. Muhammed did, and Muslims often try to justify it - not excuse it, but actually explain why sex with children is OK. TC, Gandalf and Abu are cases in point. Abu in particular took a similar line to the grand mufti - that Muslims should obey our laws, even if they disagree with them.

You've been shown examples of Christians using their prophets to justify child sex abuse, and you've seen references to popes, some of whom kept harams of children.

And yet, no one here is even saying that this proves Christianity justifies underage sex. Jesus alledgedly married a prostitute, but who would ever argue this encourages prostitute marrying? Most Christians would tell you this goes against their faith.

For you, Muhammed's example alone is enough evidence to say that Islam promotes paedophilia. Not even statements from Grand Muftis and other Muslim community leaders condemning child marriage are enough.

Not even a lack of Muslim child marriages in Australia are enough. Your evidence: Muhammed married a 6 year old, and a foreign student in Sydney married a 12 year old. That's it.

Gandalf has just told you that sex with children is not okay. Based on this, i don't believe you that Abu and TC said it's okay either.

Unfortunately, FD, you're losing credibility here.

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Datalife

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #515 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:21pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 10:30am:

This seems to be a favourite theme of yours. In fact you seem to only pop up here to repeat this "dancing on the head of a pin" meme.

What I am not "shuffling my paperwork" over is that I do not, never have, and never will condone child marriage. But I will not shy away from pointing out the clear and obvious difference between what constitutes "child" in 7th century nomadic society and what constitutes "child" in today's society. And the fact that it is at best ignorant and at worst plain dishonest to claim that all post-pubescent 9, 12, 14 year old girls are the same level of maturity in all cultures and all historical contexts.

Congratulations, almost the same albeit verbose reasonable conclusion that I posted waaaaaaaaay back.

By the standards of his time big Mo was not a paedo but by modern standards in most western countries to do the same today would be considered paedophilia.

That Muslims take inspiration from big Mo and can justify themselves by emulating his example is the modern day legacy.

And the reason I don't contribute much is because I have said in a single short sentence all that is relevant and said it ages ago.

I agree he was not a paedo by the standards of his time but you want it both ways, not a paedo then, and not a paedo now because of your ridiculous defence she had pubes and was mature. Oh and that he loved her, ...they all do Roll Eyes

Happy dancing. Cool

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polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #516 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:40pm

Datalife wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:21pm:

I agree he was not a paedo by the standards of his time but you want it both ways, not a paedo then, and not a paedo now because of your ridiculous defence she had pubes and was mature.

That makes absolutely no sense. How exactly do I "want it both ways"? If Muhammad was alive today and he was bonking a 9 year old, then yes he would be a peado.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #517 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:55pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:03pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:11pm:

Karnal:

Quote:

All the handwringing and excusing is about pointing out the scope of the issue, its context and its causes.

But don't mention Muhammed having sex with children and maybe this is why we have a situation where an Imam solemnised the marriage, with the father's approval?

Quote:

You would never ask how paedophile priests go against Christian teachings, depite the fact that past popes have been serial offenders and are granted divine authority by the church.

That is because it falls into the bleeding obvious category. Jesus did not go round fiddling the choir boys. Muhammed did, and Muslims often try to justify it - not excuse it, but actually explain why sex with children is OK. TC, Gandalf and Abu are cases in point. Abu in particular took a similar line to the grand mufti - that Muslims should obey our laws, even if they disagree with them.

You've been shown examples of Christians using their prophets to justify child sex abuse, and you've seen references to popes, some of whom kept harams of children.

And yet, no one here is even saying that this proves Christianity justifies underage sex. Jesus alledgedly married a prostitute, but who would ever argue this encourages prostitute marrying? Most Christians would tell you this goes against their faith.

For you, Muhammed's example alone is enough evidence to say that Islam promotes paedophilia.

Not even statements from Grand Muftis and other Muslim community leaders condemning child marriage are enough.

Not even a lack of Muslim child marriages in Australia are enough. Your evidence: Muhammed married a 6 year old, and a foreign student in Sydney married a 12 year old. That's it.

Gandalf has just told you that sex with children is not okay.

Based on this, i don't believe you that Abu and TC said it's okay either.

K,

Moslems have been shown to lie, and lie, and lie, and lie, and lie.

Then moslems speak again, trying to calm our concerns about APPARENT [i.e. real!!!] moslem LAWLESSNESS by members of the moslem community.

And you tell us that we [the Australian community] should be 'reassured' by the words, used by moslems, a people who have demonstrated repeatedly that they use words as weapons and shields - but rarely do moslems use words to convey truth.

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:03pm:

Unfortunately, FD, you're losing credibility here.

No K, you are wrong.

There is nothing wrong with FD's credibility or his logic.......

freediver wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:11pm:

Quote:

You are not asking how - not in a constructive way anyway. You just want to ask accusative, rhetorical questions which you think you already know the answers to - in order to use this as an opportunity to score points against muslims and satiate your pathological prejudice - as usual.

No Gandalf. I am actually asking how the Muslim community can confront this head on and take responsibility. I am accusing you of offering meaningless, empty rhetoric. You are avoiding the crux of the issue.

You expect people to believe that a Muslim Imam conducted a Muslim wedding ceremony between two Muslims, that had nothing to do with Islam and goes against everything Islam teaches.

You demand that I prove that the Imam had an Islamic justification for doing so.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Sparky

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #518 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:55pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:41pm:

Sparky wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:48pm:

Sparky, the majority of defacto relationships involving underage girls are non-Muslim. This phenomenon would not even be reported if there wasn't a Muslim element to the story.

And yes, many ARE reported and investigated. If girls refuse to make a statement, the investigation goes nowhere.

In NSW, this job is done by the police/Community Services Joint Investigative Response Team, or JIRT. Their job is to investigate and substantiate the sexual abuse of minors.

Nine times out of ten, underage girls in sexual relationships refuse to make a statement. I'm surprised that the girl investigated in the Sydney case has reported 26 cases of sexual penetration.

Because of this, this case is extremely rare.

I'll take your word for it but this instance is associated with a mosque, an imam and a congregation which is rather alarming. Islam is probably being zeroed in on but it's got to stop making the news. If that was a Christian church in question it would be on here too.

True - if it was a Christian case it would definitely get a mention too. You might remember the media reports of the Children of God cult back in the 1990s. In the end, all children in the cult were removed by child protection services - as, I believe, the girl we're discussing has been.

This instance is associated with a mosque, an imam and the girl's father. Only the father is a resident of Australia - the imam and the husband have no residency status in Australia.

The husband was exposed when he reported their marriage to Centrelink. He was sent to Centrelink to obtain ID in order to enrol the girl in a new school. As he is on a student visa, he has no access to Centrelink benefits. He was there to get a letter to prove his guardianship of the girl, which he could use to enrol her in school.

The father said the girl was fully consensual, and wanted to marry. Personally, I doubt it. It looks, on the face of it, like a marriage of convenience. The guy was on a student visa, probably seeking residency in Australia.

He should have chosen an older girl.

Bloody oath he should have chosen an older girl. This topic is about an instance whereby a mosque , an imam and a group of muslims were involved in a paedophilia ring. I don't know why Christians and cults are being mentioned. We've had topics on those before. People are questioning if the Korans mention of underage wives could contribute to why muslims are marrying girls. It's a fair assumption. Is it cultural or religious?

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #519 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 5:39pm

Sparky wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:55pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:41pm:

Sparky wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:48pm:

Sparky, the majority of defacto relationships involving underage girls are non-Muslim. This phenomenon would not even be reported if there wasn't a Muslim element to the story.

And yes, many ARE reported and investigated. If girls refuse to make a statement, the investigation goes nowhere.

In NSW, this job is done by the police/Community Services Joint Investigative Response Team, or JIRT. Their job is to investigate and substantiate the sexual abuse of minors.

Nine times out of ten, underage girls in sexual relationships refuse to make a statement. I'm surprised that the girl investigated in the Sydney case has reported 26 cases of sexual penetration.

Because of this, this case is extremely rare.

I'll take your word for it but this instance is associated with a mosque, an imam and a congregation which is rather alarming. Islam is probably being zeroed in on but it's got to stop making the news. If that was a Christian church in question it would be on here too.

True - if it was a Christian case it would definitely get a mention too. You might remember the media reports of the Children of God cult back in the 1990s. In the end, all children in the cult were removed by child protection services - as, I believe, the girl we're discussing has been.

This instance is associated with a mosque, an imam and the girl's father. Only the father is a resident of Australia - the imam and the husband have no residency status in Australia.

The husband was exposed when he reported their marriage to Centrelink. He was sent to Centrelink to obtain ID in order to enrol the girl in a new school. As he is on a student visa, he has no access to Centrelink benefits. He was there to get a letter to prove his guardianship of the girl, which he could use to enrol her in school.

The father said the girl was fully consensual, and wanted to marry. Personally, I doubt it. It looks, on the face of it, like a marriage of convenience. The guy was on a student visa, probably seeking residency in Australia.

He should have chosen an older girl.

Bloody oath he should have chosen an older girl. This topic is about an instance whereby a mosque , an imam and a group of muslims were involved in a paedophilia ring.

Congratulations for being the first to mention it. Not even Y’s come up with that one.

Good work, Sparky. If you can call that one into Ray Hadley, it’ll become a fact.

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Sparky

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #520 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 5:56pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 5:39pm:

Sparky wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:55pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:41pm:

Sparky wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:48pm:

Sparky, the majority of defacto relationships involving underage girls are non-Muslim. This phenomenon would not even be reported if there wasn't a Muslim element to the story.

And yes, many ARE reported and investigated. If girls refuse to make a statement, the investigation goes nowhere.

In NSW, this job is done by the police/Community Services Joint Investigative Response Team, or JIRT. Their job is to investigate and substantiate the sexual abuse of minors.

Nine times out of ten, underage girls in sexual relationships refuse to make a statement. I'm surprised that the girl investigated in the Sydney case has reported 26 cases of sexual penetration.

Because of this, this case is extremely rare.

I'll take your word for it but this instance is associated with a mosque, an imam and a congregation which is rather alarming. Islam is probably being zeroed in on but it's got to stop making the news. If that was a Christian church in question it would be on here too.

True - if it was a Christian case it would definitely get a mention too. You might remember the media reports of the Children of God cult back in the 1990s. In the end, all children in the cult were removed by child protection services - as, I believe, the girl we're discussing has been.

This instance is associated with a mosque, an imam and the girl's father. Only the father is a resident of Australia - the imam and the husband have no residency status in Australia.

The husband was exposed when he reported their marriage to Centrelink. He was sent to Centrelink to obtain ID in order to enrol the girl in a new school. As he is on a student visa, he has no access to Centrelink benefits. He was there to get a letter to prove his guardianship of the girl, which he could use to enrol her in school.

The father said the girl was fully consensual, and wanted to marry. Personally, I doubt it. It looks, on the face of it, like a marriage of convenience. The guy was on a student visa, probably seeking residency in Australia.

He should have chosen an older girl.

Bloody oath he should have chosen an older girl. This topic is about an instance whereby a mosque , an imam and a group of muslims were involved in a paedophilia ring.

Congratulations for being the first to mention it. Not even Y’s come up with that one.

Good work, Sparky. If you can call that one into Ray Hadley, it’ll become a fact.

Don't listen to him.

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #521 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 6:23pm Sparky wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:55pm: People are questioning if the Korans mention of underage wives could contribute to why muslims are marrying girls. Look back a page or two, there are several quotes from Muslim community leaders denouncing it. No one has come out in support of it.
Back to top	Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm: Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act IP Logged

Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #522 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 7:08pm

Sparky wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 2:55pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 1:41pm:

Sparky wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:48pm:

Sparky, the majority of defacto relationships involving underage girls are non-Muslim. This phenomenon would not even be reported if there wasn't a Muslim element to the story.

And yes, many ARE reported and investigated. If girls refuse to make a statement, the investigation goes nowhere.

In NSW, this job is done by the police/Community Services Joint Investigative Response Team, or JIRT. Their job is to investigate and substantiate the sexual abuse of minors.

Nine times out of ten, underage girls in sexual relationships refuse to make a statement. I'm surprised that the girl investigated in the Sydney case has reported 26 cases of sexual penetration.

Because of this, this case is extremely rare.

I'll take your word for it but this instance is associated with a mosque, an imam and a congregation which is rather alarming. Islam is probably being zeroed in on but it's got to stop making the news. If that was a Christian church in question it would be on here too.

True - if it was a Christian case it would definitely get a mention too. You might remember the media reports of the Children of God cult back in the 1990s. In the end, all children in the cult were removed by child protection services - as, I believe, the girl we're discussing has been.

This instance is associated with a mosque, an imam and the girl's father. Only the father is a resident of Australia - the imam and the husband have no residency status in Australia.

The husband was exposed when he reported their marriage to Centrelink. He was sent to Centrelink to obtain ID in order to enrol the girl in a new school. As he is on a student visa, he has no access to Centrelink benefits. He was there to get a letter to prove his guardianship of the girl, which he could use to enrol her in school.

The father said the girl was fully consensual, and wanted to marry. Personally, I doubt it. It looks, on the face of it, like a marriage of convenience. The guy was on a student visa, probably seeking residency in Australia.

He should have chosen an older girl.

Bloody oath he should have chosen an older girl. This topic is about an instance whereby a mosque , an imam and a group of muslims were involved in a paedophilia ring. I don't know why Christians and cults are being mentioned.

Christians and cults are being mentioned because they’re the ones proven to have committed child sexual abuse in Australia - on an epic scale. They have also used history and religion to justify their behaviour.

You don’t take the speeding statistics, pull two Muslim drivers out of a thousand, and say there’s an epidemic of Muslims speeding on our roads.

Whoops. I’ve just given FD his next thread topic.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #523 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 7:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 12:54pm:

hmmm interesting. I just assumed from the beginning that this is a muslim thing, but as K has explained, its not at all apparent.

It’s how the tabloid media works: a shocking Muselman marriage story, an "expert" with no evidence, and a bunch of totally unrelated census figures.

I haven’t listened, but I’ll guarantee to you now that all last week the airwaves were pumping with those "statistics". Alan and Ray would have quoted them as Muslim statistics for sure.

And why not? Who reads the fine print in a news article? Most just read the headlines and skim.

The Miinister of Community Services, it seems, is no different, unless -

Pru’s just having a bit of fun - with News Ltd’s help, of course.

It wouldn’t be the first time a Liberal minister has had the Liberal Party’s Pravda help them out. Let’s face it, this is exactly what the Daily Telegraph is for.

Ads for Bunnings, Coles and Liquorland not withstanding.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #524 - Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 7:48pm

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No really you are not. Because the sensible answer I gave you - that they educate each other and explain that this is not condoned by islam

That is your suggestion for how Muslims confront the issue "head on"?

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is not an answer to you

It is an answer, but it is neither taking responsibility nor confronting the issue head on. It is pretty much the opposite - deny responsibility (on the part of Islam) and offering a solution that is literally nothing more than talking about the problem. What are you going to do when the Muslims doing this say you are full of crap because Muhammed had sex with children? Chew their ear off?

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For you, nothing short of vilifying the prophet and having muslims renounce their religion is acceptable. Thats why you are an obstacle to a solution.

I'm sure there are many ways you could confront the issue head on. Denying it has anything to do with Islam and "educating" the offenders about your version of Islam is not one of them. If you heard that the Catholic Church's response to pedophile priests was to "educate" them about the church's official stance on raping little boys, would you declare that to be confronting the issue head on and taking responsibility?

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I'm sure the Imam thought it had everything to do with islam - but thats not the point.

Earlier in this thread you were demanding I prove this, despite it being so obvious.

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The point is that there is no evidence this sort of attitude is mainstream.

What are you suggesting? That not every Muslim man is married to a child?

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The only evidence we have of "what muslims think" about this issue is that they abhore it and want to stamp it out.

Either that, or they want to engage in it, endorse it, and solemnise it, or use science or Islam to justify it.

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Thats why you have to tiptoe around the actual facts of the case

No I don't. You did this. You spent quite some time demanding that I prove to you that Islam was a relevant factor in a Muslim Imam conducting and Islamic wedding ceremony for two Muslims.

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My solution is to point out that islamic teachings do not condone this

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and that muslims demonstrably agree with me

Except of course, for the ones you don't. So your solution is basically argumentum ad populum?

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If we look at the reality here, we have an issue that as K has pointed out, is not a uniquely muslim problem

Great, sounds like you are taking responsibility and confronting the issue head on.

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and where it is a muslim problem, is met with universal condemnation

Universal? I can recall three examples so far, in contrast to the four people directly involved in this one incident, and the concession by the Islamic health service that it is a widespread problem.

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Then if we look at what is imagined, we have an issue that is rampant and unique amongst muslims

Is this where you imagine what I actually said?

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and we have muslims pointing out that this issue shouldn't be condemned on islamic grounds.

The grand Mufti said it should be condemned on legal and ethical grounds. Does he always need point out the basis on which he condemns something?

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That makes absolutely no sense. How exactly do I "want it both ways"? If Muhammad was alive today and he was bonking a 9 year old, then yes he would be a peado.

Gandalf can you explain how the definition of pedophilia has changed?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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