Australian Politics Forum - underage marriage in Sydney

Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #585 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 3:26pm

Sparky wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 3:25pm:

Do you have evidence of the Muslim community hiding another child marriage? By Karnal.

It's very probable there are more. Things like that are never one offs.

Of course it's possible. Is a possibility evidence of an epidemic?

I'll have to defer that question to FD. We have different standards for evidence here on the Islam board.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #586 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 3:27pm - indeed. If Y really knows this crime going on and he doesn't report it, he's an accessory to that crime no?
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Sparky

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #587 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 3:34pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 3:26pm:

Sparky wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 3:25pm:

Do you have evidence of the Muslim community hiding another child marriage? By Karnal.

It's very probable there are more. Things like that are never one offs.

Of course it's possible. Is a possibility evidence of an epidemic?

I'll have to defer that question to FD. We have different standards for evidence here on the Islam board.

I time we'll find out. I'd say the government will be on the lookout now.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96232 Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #588 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 4:26pm polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 3:27pm: - indeed. If Y really knows this crime going on and he doesn't report it, he's an accessory to that crime no? Good heavens. Y sounds like one of those spineless apologists. What did Moses say? GUILTY.
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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #589 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 4:29pm

Sparky wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 3:34pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 3:26pm:

Sparky wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 3:25pm:

Do you have evidence of the Muslim community hiding another child marriage? By Karnal.

It's very probable there are more. Things like that are never one offs.

Of course it's possible. Is a possibility evidence of an epidemic?

I'll have to defer that question to FD. We have different standards for evidence here on the Islam board.

I time we'll find out. I'd say the government will be on the lookout now.

No, they've got the Daily Telegraph on the case. I'd say something will pop up before long, wouldn't you?

They certainly won't be listening to Mick Kealty from the Federal Police anymore. He doesn't see any problem.

GUILTY.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #590 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 4:56pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 12:01pm:

Quote:

The practice is widespread in Yemen and has been particularly hard to discourage in part because of the country's gripping poverty - bride-prices in the hundreds of dollars are especially difficult for poor families to pass up.

More than a quarter of Yemen's females marry before age 15, according to a report last year by the Social Affairs Ministry.

Tribal custom also plays a role, including the belief that a young bride can be shaped into an obedient wife, bear more children and be kept away from temptation.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/top-clerics-oppose-ban-on-child-brides-20100323-qrk8.html#ixzz2v30qS3w7

You are, however, changing the perameters of a discussion on underage marriage in Sydney. Yemen is as far from Sydney as you can get: politically, culturally and economically. I don't think you'll find two societies as different as Yemen and Australia. Despite this, there is a campaign in Yemen to return the marriage age to 17, where it was in 1994. I don't know if this is the influence of Western NGOs or a shift within Yemen itself - perhaps coming from women's groups.

The old boy provided good evidence of three Muslim states with no minimum age for marriage.

I am definitely concerned about this - particularly the use of apostacy laws to discourage debate.

That was a response to the apologist who posted crap from spin doctors about child brides being unislamic, we can see in the Islamic parts of the world child brides are fairly common.

When top clerics (where does Heisa Scab ,sorry Keysar Trad preach or is he a spin doctor for Islam) say those who oppose child brides are apostates they are really saying if you object to child brides we will chop your head off.

I would say it is womens rights groups that are forcing Islamic countries to set a minimum age for marriage.

Sheik Munajid, a Saudi Scholar from the homeland of Islam,one of the 5 pillars of Islam is you must visit Saudi Arabia if you can, muslims face Mecca in Saudi Arabia when they tap their heads on the ground with their asses in the air, read what he says about child brides-
Quote:

Praise be to Allah

With regards to females, the father may give his minor virgin daughter who has not reached the age of 9 in marriage, and there is no difference of opinion concerning that.

All of those scholars from whom we acquired knowledge unanimously agreed it is permissable for a father to give his minor daughter in marriage if he arranges her to someone who is compatible,and it is permissable for him to do that even if she is reluctant.

Islamic source-islamqa.info/en/146882

This Sydney father who married off his child was just following Islam.

If muslims like Gandalf object to child brides they are not doing it because of Islam, they are doing it in spite of Islam.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #591 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 6:14pm

Consent in Marriage

A duality in ISLAM, of what is 'permissible' [i.e. 'lawful'] is always apparent.

And it is a duality which can always been found in the application of ISLAMIC law, and as ISLAMIC law applies within an ISLAMIC society.

And the moslem society will 'bend' the application of their own laws, to take a path that is most advantageous to the moslem.

e.g.
IN THE FIRST INSTANCE - ISLAM insists that a women/bride must agree to the marriage in order to make a marriage valid.

Quote:

EVIDENCE #9: Consent in Marriage

A women must be consulted and must agree in order to make a marriage valid (Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p. 665). Islamically, credible permission from women is a prerequisite for a marriage to be valid.....

UK, young girls plied with drugs, then raped,
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1329870100/26#26

IN THE SECOND INSTANCE - It is 'lawful' to give a child girl in marriage, that is, to compel a child girl to enter into a marriage against her will - if the marriage is advantageous to the child girl the father!

[source credit Baron, post #590]
Quote:

Praise be to Allah

With regards to females, the father may give his minor virgin daughter who has not reached the age of 9 in marriage, and there is no difference of opinion concerning that.

All of those scholars from whom we acquired knowledge unanimously agreed it is permissable for a father to give his minor daughter in marriage if he arranges her to someone who is compatible,and it is permissable for him to do that even if she is reluctant.

Islamic source-islamqa.info/en/146882

The 'prophet' of ISLAM said that, a persons silence is [their] consent, [their] agreement [with what is happening].

Google;
mohammed silence is consent

By what means, by what threats, could a moslem father silence his daughter, regarding giving her consent to her marriage ???

+++

Moslems are a people, not bound by any honour [i.e. by truth!], to be constant in their 'affections' [i.e. treaties!], or to be faithful to any agreement they make.

Moslems are a people full of infidelity.

Moslems ARE 'natural' infidels, imo!

"Love is not love Which alters when it alteration"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295407319/0#0
Quote:

From the Koran, Hadith;

Allah told Mohammed, it is OK to not fulfil the oaths you make.
i.e. If you find something better, you are free to go, and make a better deal, and abandon your first oath.

"Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise."
Koran 66:2

"The Prophet said, "If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath."."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #007.067.427
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.078.618
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.709
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.710
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.712
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.715

"expiate my oath", means an obligation to Allah of penance [Kaffara], e.g. fasting for three days, or to clothe or feed poor people.

"If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then you should expiate your oath and do what is better."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.261

"The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: An oath or a vow about something over which a human being has no control, and to disobey Allah, and to break ties of relationship is not binding. If anyone takes an oath and then considers something else better than it, he should give it up, and do what is better, for leaving it is its atonement."
hadithsunnah/abudawud/ #021.3268

"Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar said, "Whoever swears by Allah and then says, 'Allah willing' and then does not do what he has sworn to, has not broken his oath." "
hadithsunnah/muwatta/ #022.22.6.10
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #592 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 7:24pm

Baron, your source states that there is no need for girls’ consent in traditional Islamic marriage. The father decides who the girl should marry, and that’s the end of it. Ultimately, women and girls in these societies are powerless. These rules are designed to protect family honour and prevent girls from losing their virginity prior to marriage.

This would not be possible in Australia. Such a currency - virginity - is hardly valued here. But any girl who was married against her will would merely have to give a clue of her situation to a teacher in class to give the entire game away.

It is possible, but a marriage in this situation - totally against a child’s will - is a huge crime in Australia with no statute of limitations. Such a wife could report the crime at any time throughout her life and have her husband charged for child rape, among other charges. Who would put themselves at this sort of risk here? Even the father in the case we’ve discussed in this thread has been refused bail. The groom and the imam who performed the ceremony are both foreigners, and presumably ignorant of Australian law - or the seriousness with which we take sexual crimes against children.

Why else would they put themselves at risk?

Family honour and daughters’ virginity probably have some value in immigrant Muslim communities in the West, but the economic imperatives are not the same as poor Muslim countries. Girls there are married for dowries. It’s the males’ duty in traditional households to ensure their daughter’s/sister’s marriage. The same applies in traditional Hindu society. They do this to provide for their sisters’ welfare. Finding a suitor and arranging girls’ marriage is considered helping them. It’s the equivalent of finding your son or brother a job.

In Australia, women can earn their own income. There is no imperative to marry them off and have one less mouth to feed. There is no real need to provide for their future security and welfare. There is no need to marry them young and get them popping a tribe of babies out - in developed countries, the norm is about two kids. Infant mortality is not an issue here.

For these reasons, I doubt any claim of an Muslim child marriage epidemic in Australia. The primary reason is economics - there is simply no need. But the bleedingly obvious reason is staring everybody in the face - it’s illegal.

And not just illegal, but completely shameful. What sane person would want to be the chump in jail with the paedophile tag for being stupid enough to tie the knot?

And if they are paedophiles, why would they be marrying them?

Feel free to prove me wrong, but unlike some here, I don’t want to see proof of a child marriage epidemic in Australia.

I think the kids are much better off in school, getting tanked on the weekend and losing their virginity like everyone else.

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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #593 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 7:32pm disgusting, offensive and above all completely off topic. Deleted. Grow up Moses.
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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #594 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 7:41pm moses wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 7:32pm: Below is a drawing from his manuscripts of muhammad, just before he declared that all dogs are devils and must be killed What
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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #595 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:19pm

Quote:

We could have another endless theological debate,

As I recall the last theological debate we had on this issue lasted about 5 minutes. Then you ran out of ideas.

Quote:

or we can be satisfied with the fact that the only opinions we have heard from Australia's mainstream muslim leaders is that it is unacceptable and should be stamped out.

The Imam who conducted the ceremony is a Muslim leader. But I guess it doesn't count because you have not heard from him, and I am yet to prove that he had Islam on his mind when he solemnised the marriage of two Muslims in an Islamic wedding ceremony.

Would you expect the Muslims who support the marriage or disagree with Mr Trad's comments to speak up, or keep their mouth shut?

Quote:

FD, why not, as you have said before, avoid "tarring muslims with the same brush" - and work with them on the goals we have in common?

You expect me to try to explain to Muslims that the example set by Muhammed himself goes against everything Islam teaches? I already explained why - because I think this is the most limp-wristed approach imaginable, and you would say the same if a non-Muslim came out with the same tripe. That is why you left those questions unanswered.

Quote:

Isn't the best way of alienating the muslim community and thereby ensuring this problem does not get addressed is by demonise muslims who express goodwill on this issue and throw it straight back in their face?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. If their goodwill is a useless response, I owe it to them to point it out. I don't want to see little Muslim girls exploited any more than you do, and I am not going to reinforce your self delusions in the interests of goodwill. In fact, I believe your original proposal was not sufficiently pissweak for you, and you have backtracked to the problem being non-existent and the Muslim community not needing to take responsibility or do anything.

Karnal:

Quote:

This would not be possible in Australia. Such a currency - virginity - is hardly valued here.

It is valued by the people who value it, and plenty do.

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #596 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:31pm

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:

Quote:

or we can be satisfied with the fact that the only opinions we have heard from Australia's mainstream muslim leaders is that it is unacceptable and should be stamped out.

The Imam who conducted the ceremony is a Muslim leader.

But I guess it doesn't count because you have not heard from him, and I am yet to prove that he had Islam on his mind when he solemnised the marriage of two Muslims in an Islamic wedding ceremony.

The question here is NOT, whether or not the phenomenon of child marriage is happening in Australia.

Underage marriage, within the moslem community, within Australia, IS HAPPENING......
.....but even if it is, that has nuffin to do with ISLAM nor the moslem community here in Australia.

Moslems here in Australia 'frown upon' such things happening. Honest!!! Tongue

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #597 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:35pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:

Quote:

or we can be satisfied with the fact that the only opinions we have heard from Australia's mainstream muslim leaders is that it is unacceptable and should be stamped out.

The Imam who conducted the ceremony is a Muslim leader.

But I guess it doesn't count because you have not heard from him, and I am yet to prove that he had Islam on his mind when he solemnised the marriage of two Muslims in an Islamic wedding ceremony.

The question here is NOT, whether or not the phenomenon of child marriage is happening in Australia.

Underage marriage, within the moslem community, within Australia, IS HAPPENING......

That’s right, Y. Underlining and writing it in capitals really proves your point.

If I choose a bigger font, do I win?

IT’S HAPPENING ALRIGHT.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49251 At my desk.	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #598 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:37pm The moral challenges of our time, eh Karnal?
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96232 Gender:	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #599 - Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:40pm freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:37pm: The moral challenges of our time, eh Karnal? Quite. Arial or Times New Roman. Personally, I prefer the classical. Call me old fashioned...
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