Karnal wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:35pm:





I know how to 'press buttons'.    







Quote:

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:


No he is not. Goodness me. Any old schmuck can call themselves "imam", it doesn't make them a "muslim leader". About all we know about this guy is that he is an irregular attendee at his local mosque and (according to Karnal) a foreigner who is probably ignorant of Australian law.

As Karnal pointed out, common sense says that actual mainstream muslim leaders in Australia wouldn't have a bar of this because this practice is illegal and has a huge cultural stigma attached to it. Why would they put themselves at such a risk?

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:


No, as I pointed out last post, no one is making any argument for or against this particular imam. You are probably thinking of when I pulled you up for putting words in the mouth of the Grand Mufti when he came out condemning it. But this particular guys motives and beliefs is irrelevant, because there is no reason to believe he represents islam in Australia, and the evidence - of actual mainstream muslim leaders coming out to condemn this behaviour - strongly suggests that he does not represent islam in Australia. Plus the fact that there is zero evidence that this sort of practice is rampant across the Australian muslim community.

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:


Perhaps we can start by identifying Australian muslims who actually do support the marriage or disagree with Mr Trad. Then we can assess how representative they are of the Australian muslim community, and therefore how relevant they are to this debate on how much of a problem this is in the muslim community. If, as the only evidence available strongly suggests, a) there is no muslim epidemic of child marriage in Australia and b) it is not a practice that has any sort of widespread support in the Australian muslim community, then your point is rather moot no?

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:


If muslims actually don't believe it does, then yes, I guess you should. Explain to the vast majority of muslims who abhore child marriage and child abuse that they have it all wrong. Is that constructive FD? Or you could be content with the fact that its actually a *GOOD* thing that muslims abhore child marriage and child abuse, and that is a commonality that we can all work constructively together on to combat this phenomenon.

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:


How, prey tell, is it a "useless response"? On what possible measure do you come to this conclusion? Can you point out to me evidence of a child-marriage epidemic in the Australian muslim community? No you can't. Is there any evidence at all that this "useless response" has led to any sort of problem of child-marrage or child abuse within the muslim community? No there is not. Like I said before, the only way to maintain your line is to tiptoe around the actual facts of the case and defer to the entirely irrelevant point about your interpretation of islamic doctrine. And literally the best you can do is turn what should be a positive about the muslim community (that they condemn the practice and want it stamped out), and slam them for supposedly being hypocritical about their doctrine. Only you could launch an attack on muslims for expressing goodwill and attempting to act positively in the interests of their society.

freediver wrote on Mar 5^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:


I made the mistake of assuming this was a problem in the Australian muslim community. Now I see that it is not. There has been presented not a shred of evidence to suggest that it is. Do you have evidence FD? Serious question. And see if you can answer without making up stories about a second imam or some imaginary islamic health service or whatever. Is all this really over just two cases? I feel its pertinent to quote something actually good you said in a previous life:

Quote:


Explain to me FD, how this is not "muslim bashing" over "one or two scare stories".

Quote:


He was the Imam at a mosque in Newcastle.

Quote:


And yet you expect me to quote Muslim leaders coming out and saying this. Not every Muslim is as stupid as the guy who walked into a centrelink office looking for a handout for child child bride, though plenty seem to come close.

Quote:


No Gandalf, I am thinking of the several pages you and Gandalf devoted to demanding I prove that a Muslim Imam conducting a Muslim wedding ceremony for two Muslims was something to do with Islam.

Quote:


Is Islam in Australia different to Islam overseas? I don't recall the Grand Mufti making any direct claims about Islam in the context of this incident. He did something rather unusual for a religious leader in citing non-religious reasons for his announcement. Mr Trad on the other hand did, which I was happy to concede.

Quote:


Abu supports it, though he thinks Muslims should obey our laws. You have spoken in support of child marriages if the child is trained properly.

Quote:


Abu made a very strong case that he represents mainstream Islam. You have made no such case at all. For a Muslim discussing Islam on an Islam discussion forum, you are surprisingly reluctant to explain the basis for your views on Islam.

Quote:


You are the one who suggested telling Muslims they are wrong about Islam is a solution to the problem.

Quote:


Sounds great, so long as you keep it all vague and waffly.

Quote:


Your unwillingness to comment on how you would perceive the same approach being adopted by leaders of other religions.

Quote:


Yes there is. We had a Muslim walk into a centrelink office to claim a handout for his child bride, not even aware that what he was doing is illegal. Have you ever heard of a pedophile being unaware they were breaking the law and declaring their actions to public officials? According to Karnal, that is what it takes for the system to uncover pedophilia within the Muslim community.

Quote:


It didn't take much to convince you. Why would you assume this?

Quote:


The absence of evidence is evidence of absence argument?

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:


Oh, FD, you are a silly.

Quote:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/child-bride-12-was-married-in-her-fath...

Quote:
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/hearing-set-for-imam-alleged-to-have-officiated-over-w...

Looks like the imam's a PB. Never ever, eh?

On stilts.

Karnal wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 1:21pm:



What "police investigation" ?

Why is a "police investigation" going to be started, if moslems will not report a fellow moslem to the Kuffar law policing system ?

This moslem [the 'husband'] MARRIED the 12 year old girl.



Q.
Who in the Sydney moslem community actually reported him to the police - AFTER THE EVENT    [after his marriage to his 12 year old bride] ?

A.
Nobody from the Sydney moslem community, it appears.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:


No. He attended the mosque "on and off" according to the SMH article you posted earlier. He was a Pakistani on a work visa. Almost certainly he attained the title "imam" in Pakistan, not by being head of a mosque in Newcastle. The actual imam of a mosque would need to attend that mosque more than "on and off" - obviously.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:


I expect you to come up with a credible argument - preferably with evidence. Simply saying "well of course there are lots more cases - because it should be easy to hide" is not a credible argument.


freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:


Only if you're in some bizarro parallel world where a muslim leader talking about "ethical grounds" is not talking about islam. But whats even more ridiculous is claiming he specifically "pointed out" that it shouldn't be condemned on islamic grounds. Its worth noting too that he was speaking through an interpreter.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:


freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:


So what are you actually arguing FD? In the paragraph below this you just claimed that of course underage marriage must be common in Australia's muslim community - because one clueless muslim was stupid enough to expose himself, and therefore there must be a whole heap of smarter muslims keeping it secret. Now you are saying that someone who properly represents islam in Australia would not engage in child marriage after all. So what *IS* your point FD?? Remember we are talking about whether or not underage marriage is a "problem" in the muslim community. Why do you alternate between saying "yes it must be common here" to "actually muslims wouldn't do it here"? You are just completely contradicting yourself.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:


My unwillingness? No, I've never considered that irrelevant question - because its completely irrelevant. But since you mention it, I think that Catholics educating their flock that pedophilia is completely contrary to christian doctrine an excellent strategy to combating pedophilia in the church. Don't you?

No idea what thats got to do with building your non-existent case that muslim leaders are somehow facilitating a "problem" that you can't even find any evidence that exists in the first place.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:


In this case, yes.

I won't get tired of requoting this FD:

Quote:


This literally all comes down to muslim bashing after one or two scare stories. Explain to me how it isn't so FD.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 2:19pm:


Good point, G. That's two Moslems who have come out against child marriage without specifying it as un-Islamic. Can you believe it? Here are all these Moslems refusing, banning, prohibiting and decrying child marriage, and not one of them will state it goes against the tennants of Islam.

Well, Kaysar Trad, okay. That's one - in the whole Moslem community.

You see? PROOF. The Moslem child marriage epidemic is clearly out of favour in the Moslem community, but only one of them will state specifically what we all want to hear.

On the prima facie evidence we have all seen (and not seen), I find Sydney Moselms GUILTY.

Etheopianjew wrote of the wise counsel of allah's apostle regarding child sex:

One day a muslim wife complains to muhammad that her husband had let all the romance go out of their marriage.

"I remember when my husband used to carry me up to bed." she said.

allah's apostle replied, "woman be fair, you were only ten at the time, go and complain no more.

(always remember: laughter kills the heart, muhammad said so)