Australian Politics Forum - underage marriage in Sydney

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49277
At my desk.

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #615 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 7:31pm

Moses, I think that is the second funny one from EJ you have posted, but I can't find them anywhere else online. Where are you getting them from?

Karnal wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 1:09pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:

He was the Imam at a mosque in Newcastle.

Oh, FD, you are a silly.

Quote:

(The husband) approached the mosque about marrying the girl but the Newcastle Muslim Association president Bikash “Shahriar” Paul said he was turned away because it was illegal and “wrong”.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/child-bride-12-was-married-in-her-fath...

Quote:

Police said they believed the imam had been associated with an Islamic centre and mosque in the Hunter region ''on and off'' since 2009. It is understood the imam made frequent trips from Australia to Pakistan during this time.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/hearing-set-for-imam-alleged-to-have-officiated-over-w...

Looks like the imam's a PB. Never ever, eh?

On stilts.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-12/61-year-old-man-charged-over-alleged-underage-marriage-in-newca/5254962

A Muslim cleric, Riaz Tasawar, who was until recently the imam at the Mayfield mosque in the region, has also been arrested over the illegal union.

Karnal wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 1:21pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 12:35pm:

We had a Muslim walk into a centrelink office to claim a handout for his child bride, not even aware that what he was doing is illegal.

Oh, FD, you've done it again.

Quote:

(The girl's father) said they tried to enrol his daughter at a local high school but were told to go to Centrelink to ascertain her guardianship

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/child-bride-12-was-married-in-her-fath...

How could he get Centrelink benefits? He was on a student visa.

From the article gandalf linked to in the opening post:

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/alleged-underage-marriage-uncovered-when-a-12yearold-child-bride-and-husband-26-tried-to-apply-for-spousal-benefits/story-fnii5s3x-1226821090301

AN alleged underage marriage was uncovered this week when a 12-year-old child bride and her 26-year-old husband tried to apply for spousal benefits, according to government sources.

It's the very first line in the article.

Gandalf:

Quote:

No. He attended the mosque "on and off" according to the SMH article you posted earlier.

I believe I have pointed this out to you several times in this thread already Gandalf:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-12/61-year-old-man-charged-over-alleged-underage-marriage-in-newca/5254962

A Muslim cleric, Riaz Tasawar, who was until recently the imam at the Mayfield mosque in the region, has also been arrested over the illegal union.

Quote:

Only if you're in some bizarro parallel world where a muslim leader talking about "ethical grounds" is not talking about islam.

It is bizarre for a religious leader to list reasons for objecting something, and leave out religion. Unless of course they have a good "religious" reason for doing so. Can you give any other examples of the grand mufti leaving Islam out of his basis for making a judgement?

Quote:

So what are you actually arguing FD? In the paragraph below this you just claimed that of course underage marriage must be common in Australia's muslim community - because one clueless muslim was stupid enough to expose himself, and therefore there must be a whole heap of smarter muslims keeping it secret. Now you are saying that someone who properly represents islam in Australia would not engage in child marriage after all.

I am saying that Islam itself supports child marriage, according to those Muslims who are actually able to argue that they represent mainstream Islam.

Quote:

You are just completely contradicting yourself.

No I am not, because I am not saying what you attribute to me.

Quote:

But since you mention it, I think that Catholics educating their flock that pedophilia is completely contrary to christian doctrine an excellent strategy to combating pedophilia in the church. Don't you?

Not if their response to pedophilia is limited to preaching to the choir. I doubt 'the flock' was ever unaware that raping little boys is bad. Same goes for the pedophile priests themselves. I think your suggestion is absurdly naive and limp wristed.

Quote:

No idea what thats got to do with building your non-existent case that muslim leaders are somehow facilitating a "problem" that you can't even find any evidence that exists in the first place.

Sorry, I expected to be calling you a hypocrite. I didn't realise just how eager you are to facilitate pedophilia across the board. You are one of the most open minded Muslims I have ever met.

Quote:

This literally all comes down to muslim bashing after one or two scare stories. Explain to me how it isn't so FD.

See above.

Karnal:

Quote:

Here are all these Moslems refusing, banning, prohibiting and decrying child marriage, and not one of them will state it goes against the tennants of Islam.

Where are they banning it?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96272
Gender: male

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #616 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:11pm

Where are they banning it? The imam at the Newcastle mosque told the father of the bride to bugger off. He told him underage marriage is against the law.

Why would a foreigner on a student visa apply for spousal benefits? Spousal benefits are for couples who are both on Newstart payments.

We have two conflicting stories here: the one where the school sent him to Centrelink for proof of his guardianship, andthe one where a foreigner rocks up to claim "spousal benefits" for an underage wife when he’s not already receiving Centrelink payments.

Both stories raise their own questions. Why would a school send someone to Centrelink for proof of guardianship status? Why would a non-resident get past the enquiry stage at a Centrelink office?

Neither story makes sense. The truth may well lie somewhere in between, but it’s very sloppy reporting by both the Tele and SMH.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49277
At my desk.

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #617 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:20pm

Quote:

Where are they banning it? The imam at the Newcastle mosque told the father of the bride to bugger off. He told him underage marriage is against the law.

So when you said "they are banning it" you meant non-Muslim Australians made a law against it?

Quote:

Why would a foreigner on a student visa apply for spousal benefits?

Because he is a Muslim. That's what they do. He obviously intended to get citizenship and handouts through the marriage. Might as well get started early.

Quote:

We have two conflicting stories here: the one where the school sent him to Centrelink for proof of his guardianship, andthe one where a foreigner rocks up to claim "spousal benefits" for an underage wife when he’s not already receiving Centrelink payments.

They aren't necessarily conflicting. He may have been sent there by the school to prove "guardianship", and got distracted when he realised he could get more money as a spouse. The centrelink staff probably told him this. They are very helpful like that. Some say it is their job.

Quote:

Both stories raise their own questions.

Not just that. Did you notice when the police went to arrest him, they found him outside a police station - by pure chance, not because it was some kind of arrest by appointment.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #618 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:20pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:11pm:

Why would a school send someone to Centrelink for proof of guardianship status?

Because centrelink is the office for schools to turn to for such matters.

Who would you call, PB?

Quote:

Why would a non-resident get past the enquiry stage at a Centrelink office?

To get moolah ad to establish grounds (marriage) for PR.

Back to top

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #619 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:27pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 7:31pm:

No I am not, because I am not saying what you attribute to me.

FD - I charge you with claiming that there is a child-marriage "problem" in the Australian muslim community - as per your post prior to this one. Yadda calls it an epidemic. I suppose you have given yourself slightly more room to maneuver than Yadda, but it is clear that you are basically on the same page as Yadda. This is obvious from several lines of argument you have pushed throughout the thread:

a) claiming to cite evidence from the news sources that this is "widespread" in the muslim community
b) criticising me for reversing my original claim that this was prevalent in the Australian muslim community
c) linking Muhammad's "example" with both worldwide and Australian muslim practices of "smaking kids in western Sydney with the parents consent"
d) linking the Pakistani perpetrator in this case with a worldwide islamic movement of child marriage

Now, you are denying this. I say you are spinelessly attempting to worm your way out of what you know to be a completely untenable position.

Furthermore, your claim now that the "problem" with child marriage in the muslim world only relates to muslim beliefs about the practice is completely hollow when you have absolutely no evidence that this belief is driving actual practices in the muslim world. Not only does your claim about muslim beliefs on this matter come down entirely to citing Abu + misprepresenting my views + putting words in muslim leader's mouths (or in other words completely baseless), you haven't even been able to demonstrate that this alleged belief is responsible for the practice when it occurs in the muslim world. Not even close.

To sum up, all we have been able to prove from this discussion is that child marriage is a complete non-issue from an islamic point of view.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96272
Gender: male

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #620 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:30pm

Good call on the imam though, FD. It appears he was an imam at a mosque. The Islamic Council of Newcastle decloaked him after his illegal, "secret" marriage of the 12 year old girl. He’s currently in Villawood for breaching his visa.

Reports that he’s not a mosque’s resident imam appear to have been post-haste. Tasawar was sacked by the Islamic Centre of Newcastle , it seems, only after being arrested for this marriage.

Evidence, yet again, of the Muselman’s dastardly deceit and duplicity.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #621 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:27pm:

Furthermore, your claim now that the "problem" with child marriage in the muslim world only relates to muslim beliefs about the practice is completely hollow when you have absolutely no evidence that this belief is driving actual practices in the muslim world.

Muslims countries (Saudi, Yemen) that refuse to set a minimum age for marriage do so on explicitly Islamic (ie 'what would Mohammed do") grounds.

Is that not grounded in Muslim beliefs from where you are sitting?

Back to top

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96272
Gender: male

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #622 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:35pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:20pm:

Quote:

Where are they banning it? The imam at the Newcastle mosque told the father of the bride to bugger off. He told him underage marriage is against the law.

So when you said "they are banning it" you meant non-Muslim Australians made a law against it?

Quote:

Why would a foreigner on a student visa apply for spousal benefits?

Because he is a Muslim. That's what they do. He obviously intended to get citizenship and handouts through the marriage. Might as well get started early.

Quote:

We have two conflicting stories here: the one where the school sent him to Centrelink for proof of his guardianship, andthe one where a foreigner rocks up to claim "spousal benefits" for an underage wife when he’s not already receiving Centrelink payments.

They aren't necessarily conflicting. He may have been sent there by the school to prove "guardianship", and got distracted when he realised he could get more money as a spouse. The centrelink staff probably told him this. They are very helpful like that. Some say it is their job.

Quote:

Both stories raise their own questions.

Not just that. Did you notice when the police went to arrest him, they found him outside a police station - by pure chance, not because it was some kind of arrest by appointment.

How sinister. Do you think he was trying to blow the police station up?

Back to top

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #623 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:43pm

Soren wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:34pm:

Muslims countries (Saudi, Yemen) that refuse to set a minimum age for marriage do so on explicitly Islamic (ie 'what would Mohammed do") grounds.

Is that not grounded in Muslim beliefs from where you are sitting?

Yes, I believe there are 3. Apparently the rest of the 50 something muslim countries do actually have a minimum age of 16 or above.

But we can ignore that S. Obviously having the vast majority of muslim countries banning child marriage demonstrates no sort of pattern at all about grounded muslim beliefs. No siree, not a thing.

Never ever on stilts.

Maybe you can post a video of that pompous old git to settle this.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 49277
At my desk.

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #624 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:46pm

Quote:

Reports that he’s not a mosque’s resident imam appear to have been post-haste. Tasawar was sacked by the Islamic Centre of Newcastle , it seems, only after being arrested for this marriage.

Do you have more details Karnal?

Gandalf:

Quote:

FD - I charge you with claiming that there is a child-marriage "problem" in the Australian muslim community

No. I charge you with this. And I demand proof.

Quote:

I suppose you have given yourself slightly more room to maneuver than Yadda

You will be surprised to learn we are in fact different people.

Quote:

but it is clear that you are basically on the same page as Yadda

I am aware of this bug already.

Quote:

criticising me for reversing my original claim that this was prevalent in the Australian muslim community

Actually I have been criticising you for reversing your original claim that Muslims need to take responsibility and tackle the issue head on. You started with a pissweak "solution" for how they might do it, and have gone backwards ever since.

Quote:

linking Muhammad's "example" with both worldwide and Australian muslim practices of "smaking kids in western Sydney with the parents consent"

Yes. Who'd have thought that Muhammed marrying a child would have any influence on modern Muslims marrying a child? We all know that all modern Muslims (ie Gandalf) think Muhammed's example is a noble one, and a great example for all to follow, just so long as you only follow whatever spirit or intention you project onto it and don't do whatever it is he actually did. Because then you'd be a pedophile.

Quote:

linking the Pakistani perpetrator in this case with a worldwide islamic movement of child marriage

The worldwide Islamic movement incorporates far more than child marriage.

Quote:

Now, you are denying this. I say you are spinelessly attempting to worm your way out of what you know to be a completely untenable position.

I notice you never actually quoted me saying the things you attributed to me. I guess that's where all that non-Yadda wiggle room comes from. Pretty cunning of me to not actually say the things I have been saying eh? I'm going for the grand mufti position, but that's a long term goal.

Quote:

Furthermore, your claim now that the "problem" with child marriage in the muslim world only relates to muslim beliefs about the practice

No. Having sex with children is bad, mmmmkay? Even if you are a famous warmonger.

Quote:

is completely hollow when you have absolutely no evidence that this belief is driving actual practices in the muslim world

You want me to prove that what Muhammed did influences what Muslims do?

Quote:

Not only does your claim about muslim beliefs on this matter come down entirely to citing Abu + misprepresenting my views

I also cite Muhammed, perhaps one of the most famous Muslims of all time, for example Koran 123: "Come here little girl."

Quote:

putting words in muslim leader's mouths

You put them in. I take them out. I am happy to discuss the ins and outs of these words, and have attempted to on several occasions, and even suggested how the different interpretations could be resolved. You don't seem at all interested.

Quote:

you haven't even been able to demonstrate that this alleged belief is responsible for the practice when it occurs in the muslim world. Not even close.

Are you saying that you demand proof that a Muslim Imam conducting a Muslim wedding ceremony between two Muslims in the Muslim world is something to do with Islam?

Quote:

To sum up, all we have been able to prove from this discussion is that child marriage is a complete non-issue from an islamic point of view.

A non-issue that the Muslim community must take responsibility for and tackle head on.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Yadda

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 21857
A cat with a view

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #625 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:58pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:27pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 7:31pm:

No I am not, because I am not saying what you attribute to me.

FD - I charge you with claiming that there is a child-marriage "problem" in the Australian muslim community - as per your post prior to this one. Yadda calls it an epidemic. I suppose you have given yourself slightly more room to maneuver than Yadda, but it is clear that you are basically on the same page as Yadda. This is obvious from several lines of argument you have pushed throughout the thread:

Not so, gandalf.

gadalf,

Here is what i actually posted and said....

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1391854581/550#550
Quote:

Google;
epidemic of Muslim child marriages, UK

K,

That very many child marriages within the Australian moslem community have not yet been exposed [to the same extent that child marriages within the moslem community have been exposed in the UK], does not prove that child marriage, within the Australian moslem community, is not prevalent.

The reference to "an 'epidemic' of young girls becoming 'child brides' "
[within Australia], was made in an article by The Daily Telegraph February 12, 2014.

That Daily Telegraph article, is cited in the same [my] post, #550.

Please do read my posts, and pay attention, gandalf.

Back to top

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96272
Gender: male

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #626 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 10:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:27pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 7:31pm:

No I am not, because I am not saying what you attribute to me.

FD - I charge you with claiming that there is a child-marriage "problem" in the Australian muslim community - as per your post prior to this one. Yadda calls it an epidemic. I suppose you have given yourself slightly more room to maneuver than Yadda, but it is clear that you are basically on the same page as Yadda. This is obvious from several lines of argument you have pushed throughout the thread:

a) claiming to cite evidence from the news sources that this is "widespread" in the muslim community
b) criticising me for reversing my original claim that this was prevalent in the Australian muslim community
c) linking Muhammad's "example" with both worldwide and Australian muslim practices of "smaking kids in western Sydney with the parents consent"
d) linking the Pakistani perpetrator in this case with a worldwide islamic movement of child marriage

Now, you are denying this. I say you are spinelessly attempting to worm your way out of what you know to be a completely untenable position.

Furthermore, your claim now that the "problem" with child marriage in the muslim world only relates to muslim beliefs about the practice is completely hollow when you have absolutely no evidence that this belief is driving actual practices in the muslim world. Not only does your claim about muslim beliefs on this matter come down entirely to citing Abu + misprepresenting my views + putting words in muslim leader's mouths (or in other words completely baseless), you haven't even been able to demonstrate that this alleged belief is responsible for the practice when it occurs in the muslim world. Not even close.

To sum up, all we have been able to prove from this discussion is that child marriage is a complete non-issue from an islamic point of view.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my learned colleague would have you believe that the defendant is an inveterate liar - a fraud - a fake if you will. He uses the term "spineless" to describe the defendant - as if the defendant is somehow lacking backbone, or morally inconsistent and deliberately obtuse.

No. No no no. The answer, my friends, is that nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, the defendant’s posts lack truth and reason. Yes, his words lack clarity and meaning. And yes, many appear to contain out and out lies. But I put it to you that the defendant is hardly being sincere in his allegations - far from it.

No, ladies and gentlemen, the answer is simple. The defendant is not being disingenuous, or morally corrupt, or "phoney" in the more modern, youthful parlance. No, I give you a simple explanation for his statements.

The defendant is simply having a laugh.

Your Worship, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, learned colleagues, I rest my case.

Back to top

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #627 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 10:04pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 27^th, 2014 at 9:34pm:

And we can always count on you, dear Boy. You’re now excusing and appeasing Mormons and Christian child sex cults.

Really? You are hallucinating again, PB - or making it up as you go.
We call it anosognosia in the profession - a lack of awareness of just how unmoored you really are.

Back to top

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #628 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 10:09pm

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:46pm:

Quote:
FD - I charge you with claiming that there is a child-marriage "problem" in the Australian muslim community

No. I charge you with this. And I demand proof.

No I retracted this - remember? Do keep up FD. I'm not ashamed to admit where i was wrong. Why do you think it something worth deriding someone over?

The fact is, there is no evidence this is a "muslim problem" in the Australian muslim community. We literally have one, maybe two cases here, and 40 pages worth of muslim bashing over it.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:46pm:

Actually I have been criticising you for reversing your original claim that Muslims need to take responsibility and tackle the issue head on.

Why on earth would you criticise me for this if you can't even come close to making a case that my original claim was correct? Well we all know the answer to that - because any sort of criticism of muslims is good in your book - completely irrespective of whether or not it is true.

So clearly you *DO* believe that child marriage is a "problem" in the Australian muslim community, but on what basis? Your entire case to date is based on facts that have been demonstrated to be irrelevant or just plain false. It still comes down to a single case, and building an entire horror story solely around that.

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:46pm:

Yes. Who'd have thought that Muhammed marrying a child would have any influence on modern Muslims marrying a child?

A "thought" that you have spectacularly failed to provide any evidence whatsoever for.

Is this getting through yet FD?

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Karnal

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 96272
Gender: male

Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #629 - Mar 6^th, 2014 at 10:12pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:58pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:27pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 7:31pm:

No I am not, because I am not saying what you attribute to me.

FD - I charge you with claiming that there is a child-marriage "problem" in the Australian muslim community - as per your post prior to this one. Yadda calls it an epidemic. I suppose you have given yourself slightly more room to maneuver than Yadda, but it is clear that you are basically on the same page as Yadda. This is obvious from several lines of argument you have pushed throughout the thread:

Not so, gandalf.

gadalf,

Here is what i actually posted and said....

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1391854581/550#550
Quote:

Google;
epidemic of Muslim child marriages, UK

K,

That very many child marriages within the Australian moslem community have not yet been exposed [to the same extent that child marriages within the moslem community have been exposed in the UK], does not prove that child marriage, within the Australian moslem community, is not prevalent.

The reference to "an 'epidemic' of young girls becoming 'child brides' "
[within Australia], was made in an article by The Daily Telegraph February 12, 2014.

That Daily Telegraph article, is cited in the same [my] post, #550.

Please do read my posts, and pay attention, gandalf.

And here we have the most spineless post of the lot.

No epidemic eh, Y?

Two underage Moslem marriages in Australia is not an epidemic?

Your type should be reported to the police. There are Moslem girls out there suffering. There are Moslem men seeking spousal benefits. There are toddlers seeking to BEHEAD ALL THOSE WHO INSULT THE PROPHET.

You people make me sick to my stomach.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 6^th, 2014 at 10:32pm by Karnal »

IP Logged