Australian Politics Forum - underage marriage in Sydney

Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #720 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:10pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

Quote:

So you're now pretending 'admit to yourself' was the only solution I had?

I spelt it out as clearly as I could.

You admit to yourself that other Muslims are wrong.

You inform them that they are wrong.

Then there is no more pedophilia problem in Islam. Problem solved eh?

FD,

Unfortunately, this is "both legally and ethically wrong"
.

It is 'religiously' illegal for a moslem to criticise the behaviour of another moslem.

Very convenient, eh ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #721 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:23pm

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 6:59am:

Should the cleric have alerted the authorities when the pedophile approached him and asked him to perform the marriage rites?

A fair question. Given there’s no evidence of a crime having taken place, no. The police can only act on reported crimes, not "thought crimes" or inquiries about child marriage.

Should he have reported the matter to Community Services? Yes, but it would depend on whether he is a mandatory reporter or not.

Mandatory reporters receive training and are supposed to use a guide, the MRG. A father making an enquiry about the marriage of a 12 year old girl is concerning, but with this information alone, there is no evidence of Risk Of Significant Harm to the girl.

Any report to Community Services would "screen out" without any actual information about a danger, sexual or otherwise, to a child.

Should he have reported? Sure. Would anything have been done? Not a chance.

Police and Community Services receive much worse reports about kids, and can’t attend to them.

An actual underage marriage is a different matter. Here, Community Services and police would act quickly - as they did.The girl is now in care.

This, however, is not a happy ending. Being in state care is one of the worst options for adolescent kids, worse in most cases than removing kids this age from their family.

This case might make good Musel masturbation fodder for the knuckleheads here, but it’s a terrible outcome for the girl at the centre of this case.

Because this is a highly publicised, and now politicized case, the girl will most likely stay in care until 18. I doubt she’ll be sent back to her father or husband, but in 2 years time she’ll be free to choose.

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« Last Edit: Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:29pm by Karnal »

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #722 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:24pm

Stratos wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:57pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

We are merely trying to establish whether he was referring to Islam.

Is a religious leader says something is morally wrong, what the hell do you think he's referring to?

If a religious leader says some behaviour, THAT HAS OCCURRED WITHIN HIS OWN RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY, is morally wrong, then why doesn't he explicitly say;

"This behaviour, of marrying underage girls, is both legally and ethically wrong,
......and ISLAM considers it to be ethically wrong and it is not lawful."

???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Stratos

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #723 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:28pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:24pm:

If a religious leader says some behaviour, THAT HAS OCCURRED WITHIN HIS OWN RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY, is morally wrong, then why doesn't he explicitly say;

Ask him. I've linked his public facebook profile twice now.

I'm sure reason you won't is you are completely gutless and know this is a dumb argument.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #724 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:30pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:10pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

Quote:

So you're now pretending 'admit to yourself' was the only solution I had?

I spelt it out as clearly as I could.

You admit to yourself that other Muslims are wrong.

You inform them that they are wrong.

Then there is no more pedophilia problem in Islam. Problem solved eh?

FD,

Unfortunately, this is "both legally and ethically wrong"
.

It is 'religiously' illegal for a moslem to criticise the behaviour of another moslem.

Very convenient, eh ?

Very convenient indeed, Y.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #725 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:31pm

Quote:

No, you are discussing the words of one Muslim who said something is legally and morally wrong, and arguing that this means somehow that it is being supported, when it is literally being condemned.

Stratos, this would be a lot simpler if you addressed what people actually said, rather than your little fantasies.

Quote:

Is a religious leader says something is morally wrong, what the hell do you think he's referring to?

Morals? If a religious leader says something is legally wrong, what the hell do you think he's referring to? If he tells you what he had for breakfast, what do you think he is really telling you?

Quote:

Should he have reported? Sure. Would anything have been done? Not a chance.

So a father trying to marry a 12 year old girl of to some 26 year old foreigner is not evidence of risk? He was not making a general enquiry to the Imam about child marriage. He was trying to get the Imam to endorse pedophilia.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #726 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:35pm

That’s right, FD. You seem to be avoiding the fact that he said it was wrong.

Shurely shome mishtake, eh?

An enquiry to a marriage celebrant is not enough evidence to suggest risk of sexual harm, no.

If the imam believed the girl was already in a sexual relationship with the guy, it would definitely be a risk, or in child protection terms, a danger.

Paedophilia, by the way, is not a crime. Sexual abuse, however is.

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« Last Edit: Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:44pm by Karnal »

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Stratos

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #727 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:42pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:31pm:

Stratos, this would be a lot simpler if you addressed what people actually said, rather than your little fantasies.

In the context of this stupid conversation, this comment is nothing short of hilarious.

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:31pm:

So a father trying to marry a 12 year old girl of to some 26 year old foreigner is not evidence of risk? He was not making a general enquiry to the Imam about child marriage. He was trying to get the Imam to endorse pedophilia

I agree here. It actually is a requirement of many jobs (pretty much any work that involves kids) that anything like this gets reported either to your superior (who reports it to the police/ child services) or that you do it yourself. If he was indeed a community religious leader, he has a responsibility to make sure he reports it, not only ethically, but from a duty of care point too.

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #728 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:48pm

Stratos wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 2:31pm:

Stratos, this would be a lot simpler if you addressed what people actually said, rather than your little fantasies.

In the context of this stupid conversation, this comment is nothing short of hilarious.

It’s a gem. FD is clearly trying to rival Y in the doublethink stakes.

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Adamant

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #729 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 4:39pm

Stratos wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 11:06am:

Adamant wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 10:51am:

You choose to ignore most questions asked.

So do you have evidence to support that underage Muslim marriages are common in Australia?

or are you going rely on the statement of one Muslim condemning the actions to demonstrate that it is widespread like Yadda and Freediver?

You have chosen not to answer another question, well done obfuscator. Grin

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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%

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Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #730 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 4:54pm Adamant wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 4:39pm: You have chosen not to answer another question, well done obfuscator Choose? That implies a choice. You haven't asked me any questions. If there is a question you think I have missed from someone else, point it out.
Back to top	Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm: Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49439 At my desk.	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #731 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 5:20pm Quote: Paedophilia, by the way, is not a crime. Sexual abuse, however is. WTF?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Stratos

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #732 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 5:29pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 5:20pm:

Quote:

Paedophilia, by the way, is not a crime. Sexual abuse, however is.

WTF?

Technically he is right. Paedophilia is a sexual preference (as hideously wrong as it is), not the act of child abuse itself. Basically, like most things, you can't be convicted of thoughtcrime.

The above statement does need a bit of clarification though

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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49439 At my desk.	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #733 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 6:03pm Gee, thanks for pointing that out Karnal. Pedophilia is not a crime and there is no point reporting parents who inquire about getting their little kids married off. If only Islam had more friends like you.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #734 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 6:13pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

I spelt it out as clearly as I could. You admit to yourself that other Muslims are wrong. You inform them that they are wrong. Then there is no more pedophilia problem in Islam. Problem solved eh?

No FD, suggest you spend less time being a smartarse, and more time on getting a clue. I was talking about the community - as in the community leaders. Yes, they admit that there is a problem in their community - that sounds like a pretty good start. And no, problem not solved after that, you then cooperate with police, be proactive about it, and build a culture in the community of reporting the crime. Thats what I actually said. So again, stop pretending I offered only one solution.

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

So the Grand Mufti was attempting to deal with the non-Muslim child bride problem?

No. If I didn't have to explain basic English comprehension to you, there probably wouldn't be anything left for me to respond to.

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

Even if that was the extent of it (which it isn't, you have a habit of picking one point in a long list of points, decalring it to be the sole basis of my argument, then concluding my argument must therefor be weak), it is a pretty solid link.

It is not a link at all if there is no evidence (outside of putting words in muslim's mouths) that muslims are justifying the practice on this basis. And in regards to the Australian muslim community, there isn't any evidence.

Stratos wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:57pm:

freediver wrote Today at 1:40pm:
We were not suggesting that he supports it.

Lol

LOL indeed. Presumably then FD wasn't trying to insinuate that by not saying islam condemns it, the Grand Mufti believes islam condones it after all. Tongue

The games up chaps, Karnal won this thread in reply#717. Your continued flailing on about absolutely nothing relevant is just embarassing and a waste of everyone's time.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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