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underage marriage in Sydney (Read 115939 times)

Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #750 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:36pm

Soren wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 7:43pm:

How does it need clarification? I must say, I’m a bit shocked that I have to spell this out. Crimes are actions against people or property. You’re not breaking a law by thinking or feeling something.

You are more full of more sh!t than usual, PB, and that's saying something.
People do get convicted for calling idiots like you godawful idiots and pernicious spivs and chancers - see the Andrew Bolt case. See the Danish cartoons case, Rushdie, the Mohammed youtube furore - all the rest.

A Freudian, no? From the prestigious University of Balogney if I’m not mistaken.

Thank you, dear boy. You always put these things into perspective.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #751 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:38pm

Soren wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:07pm:

The link between Muhammed and Islam is meaningless and irrelevant?

And when Muslims do it, it's because of tribalism and poverty, not because Muhammed did it. But when they don't do it, it's an expression of Islam?

I prefer to look at the actual evidence rather than make fallacious leaps of logic.

The evidence is that Mohammed was fvoking at least one under-age girl.

What are the consequences of that example?

You’ve had 48 pages to answer that question, old boy. We’re yet to hear your learned response.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #752 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:07pm:

The link between Muhammed and Islam is meaningless and irrelevant?

And when Muslims do it, it's because of tribalism and poverty, not because Muhammed did it. But when they don't do it, it's an expression of Islam?

I prefer to look at the actual evidence rather than make fallacious leaps of logic.

What "actual evidence" were you looking at when you trotted out this line?

Quote:

In fact the evidence that we have pretty strongly suggests that most muslims around the world oppose child marriage.

Would that be the evidence where you don't have to actually ask them what they think? How did that work out for you last time?

Why does your projection count as evidence, but the actions of Muhammed himself does not?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Stratos

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #753 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:41pm

Soren wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

It is that other Muslims are also feeling justified to fvock under-age girls Good enough for Mohammed, good enough for Mohammedans.

Seeing the condemnation of child marriages by Muslims in the media recently, and the distinct lack of any evidence to support the statement that Muslim child marriages are common in Australia, it would appear you are mistaken.

besides, it's not like you see Christians flipping out at bankers and kicking them out of their place of business

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15^th, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #754 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:47pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:07pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:00pm:

I would think so. Or maybe Australian muslims are similar to the fifty something muslim countries that ban child marriage. In fact the evidence that we have pretty strongly suggests that most muslims around the world oppose child marriage. As Karnal has patiently explained at length, the available data indicates that this is not a problem with islam per se, but an issue of tribalism and poverty. So where does that leave you with this "link"? Its meaningless and irrelevant.

The link between Muhammed and Islam is meaningless and irrelevant?

And when Muslims do it, it's because of tribalism and poverty, not because Muhammed did it. But when they don't do it, it's an expression of Islam?

When the majority of child marriages around the world happen, they have nothing to do with Islam or Christianity or Hinduism, no.

There are more child Hindus married than anyone else.

And no, I would never describe this as a phenomenon of Hinduism - just as I would never describe polygamy as as a phenomenon of Mormonism.

You’re just repeating yourself. The facts and statistics are all in this thread. If you haven’t read them now, you never will.

Do you have anything new to add to the debate? Or do you want to continue in the same vein for another 50 pages?

I actually believe you could.

« Last Edit: Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:53pm by Karnal »

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #755 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:56pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:07pm:

The link between Muhammed and Islam is meaningless and irrelevant?

And when Muslims do it, it's because of tribalism and poverty, not because Muhammed did it. But when they don't do it, it's an expression of Islam?

I prefer to look at the actual evidence rather than make fallacious leaps of logic.

What "actual evidence" were you looking at when you trotted out this line?

Quote:

In fact the evidence that we have pretty strongly suggests that most muslims around the world oppose child marriage.

Would that be the evidence where you don't have to actually ask them what they think? How did that work out for you last time?

Why does your projection count as evidence, but the actions of Muhammed himself does not?

All your questions have been answered multiple times. Asking them again doesn’t add anything to a debate.

If you haven’t read the responses and learned from them, asking again won’t help you.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #756 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 10:03pm

Stratos wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:41pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:31pm:

It is that other Muslims are also feeling justified to fvock under-age girls Good enough for Mohammed, good enough for Mohammedans.

Seeing the condemnation of child marriages by Muslims in the media recently, and the distinct lack of any evidence to support the statement that Muslim child marriages are common in Australia, it would appear you are mistaken.

besides, it's not like you see Christians flipping out at bankers and kicking them out of their place of business

It’s not like anyone’s even suggesting sexually abusing children is unique to Christianity.

And this, despite the overwhealming prevalence of institutional child sexual abuse by the church.

Just saying this here makes me guilty here of spineless apologetics. How dare I raise actual instances of child sexual abuse?

We’re meant to be discussing what the Grand Mufti did or didn’t say when he condemned child marriage.

This, you see, is progressive.

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Yadda

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #757 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 10:10pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:00pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 7:02pm:

Is Australian Islam different to overseas Islam?

I would think so. Or maybe Australian muslims are similar to the fifty something muslim countries that ban child marriage.

In fact the evidence that we have pretty strongly suggests that most muslims around the world oppose child marriage.

As Karnal has patiently explained at length, the available data indicates that this is not a problem with islam per se, but an issue of tribalism and poverty.

So where does that leave you with this "link"? Its meaningless and irrelevant.

gandalf,

It is reassuring to hear that you believe that.... "most muslims around the world oppose child marriage."

But apparently, many moslems in the UK do not oppose the child marriage of young girls.

In fact, many moslems in the UK seem to believe that it is ISLAM which sanctions the marriage of young girls, and that it is an advantage to moslems who want to marry off their underage girls - because ISLAM not only allows such unions, but ISLAM makes such unions lawful.

Behind the UK's underage Muslim marriage epidemic
Published October 7th, 2013

http://www.albawaba.com/news/britain-muslim-underage-marriages-525390
Quote:

With recent stories coming to light about the terrible plight about child brides across the Middle East, one would be forgiven for thinking that [UK] Muslim clerics may think twice before attempting to wed off young girls.

A British investigation has shone a light onto the 'match-making skills' of dozens of Muslim clerics who were caught on camera agreeing to marry of girls as young as 14.

Four of the imams caught on ITV's Exposure programme are now under investigation from the police after they offered to arrange the illegal ceremonies, the UK's Daily Mail reported Monday.

Posing as the mother and brother of a 14-year-old girl who was ready to be married off, two undercover reporters visited some 56 mosques across Britain asking clerics if they could perform an Islamic marriage ceremony, known as a nikah.

During the course of the filming, Imams at 18 of the mosques agreed to perform the ceremony, despite the fictional girl barely having reached puberty.

One of the Imams who agreed to the nikah ceremony was willing to perform the rituals despite being told that the 'bride' was being forced to move in with a man against her wishes, the Daily Mail reported.

When told the girl did not want to get married, Mohammed Shahid Akhtar, of the Central Jamia Mosque Ghamkol Sharif in Birmingham, replied: “She’s 14. By sharia, grace of God, she’s legal to get married.

“Obviously Islam has made it easy for us. There is nothing against that. We’re doing it because it’s OK through Islam,” according to the Daily Mail.

n.b.
"Imams at 18 of the [56] mosques agreed to perform the ceremony"

18/56 = 32% of moslem clerics in the UK, appear to be OK with the marriage of underage girls.

QUESTION;
And why would moslem clerics in the UK, appear to be OK with the marriage of underage girls ?

ANSWER;
"By sharia, grace of God, she’s legal to get married........Obviously Islam has made it easy for us. There is nothing against that [in ISLAM]. We’re doing it because it’s OK through Islam,...."

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #758 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 10:36pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:56pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:07pm:

The link between Muhammed and Islam is meaningless and irrelevant?

And when Muslims do it, it's because of tribalism and poverty, not because Muhammed did it. But when they don't do it, it's an expression of Islam?

I prefer to look at the actual evidence rather than make fallacious leaps of logic.

What "actual evidence" were you looking at when you trotted out this line?

Quote:

In fact the evidence that we have pretty strongly suggests that most muslims around the world oppose child marriage.

Would that be the evidence where you don't have to actually ask them what they think? How did that work out for you last time?

Why does your projection count as evidence, but the actions of Muhammed himself does not?

All your questions have been answered multiple times. Asking them again doesn’t add anything to a debate.

If you haven’t read the responses and learned from them, asking again won’t help you.

This.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #759 - Mar 9^th, 2014 at 10:46pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 10:10pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:00pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 7:02pm:

Is Australian Islam different to overseas Islam?

I would think so. Or maybe Australian muslims are similar to the fifty something muslim countries that ban child marriage.

In fact the evidence that we have pretty strongly suggests that most muslims around the world oppose child marriage.

As Karnal has patiently explained at length, the available data indicates that this is not a problem with islam per se, but an issue of tribalism and poverty.

So where does that leave you with this "link"? Its meaningless and irrelevant.

gandalf,

It is reassuring to hear that you believe that.... "most muslims around the world oppose child marriage."

But apparently, many moslems in the UK do not oppose the child marriage of young girls.

In fact, many moslems in the UK seem to believe that it is ISLAM which sanctions the marriage of young girls, and that it is an advantage to moslems who want to marry off their underage girls - because ISLAM not only allows such unions, but ISLAM makes such unions lawful.

Behind the UK's underage Muslim marriage epidemic
Published October 7th, 2013

http://www.albawaba.com/news/britain-muslim-underage-marriages-525390
Quote:

With recent stories coming to light about the terrible plight about child brides across the Middle East, one would be forgiven for thinking that [UK] Muslim clerics may think twice before attempting to wed off young girls.

A British investigation has shone a light onto the 'match-making skills' of dozens of Muslim clerics who were caught on camera agreeing to marry of girls as young as 14.

Four of the imams caught on ITV's Exposure programme are now under investigation from the police after they offered to arrange the illegal ceremonies, the UK's Daily Mail reported Monday.

Posing as the mother and brother of a 14-year-old girl who was ready to be married off, two undercover reporters visited some 56 mosques across Britain asking clerics if they could perform an Islamic marriage ceremony, known as a nikah.

During the course of the filming, Imams at 18 of the mosques agreed to perform the ceremony, despite the fictional girl barely having reached puberty.

One of the Imams who agreed to the nikah ceremony was willing to perform the rituals despite being told that the 'bride' was being forced to move in with a man against her wishes, the Daily Mail reported.

When told the girl did not want to get married, Mohammed Shahid Akhtar, of the Central Jamia Mosque Ghamkol Sharif in Birmingham, replied: “She’s 14. By sharia, grace of God, she’s legal to get married.

“Obviously Islam has made it easy for us. There is nothing against that. We’re doing it because it’s OK through Islam,” according to the Daily Mail.

n.b.
"Imams at 18 of the [56] mosques agreed to perform the ceremony"

18/56 = 32% of moslem clerics in the UK, appear to be OK with the marriage of underage girls.

QUESTION;
And why would moslem clerics in the UK, appear to be OK with the marriage of underage girls ?

ANSWER;
"By sharia, grace of God, she’s legal to get married........Obviously Islam has made it easy for us. There is nothing against that [in ISLAM]. We’re doing it because it’s OK through Islam,...."

I don’t know, Y. Maybe they have a better breed of News Ltd journalist in the UK.

Do you want to get back to the explosion of child marriage in Sydney?

I’m concerned.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #760 - Mar 10^th, 2014 at 8:36am

Karnal wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:56pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:07pm:

The link between Muhammed and Islam is meaningless and irrelevant?

And when Muslims do it, it's because of tribalism and poverty, not because Muhammed did it. But when they don't do it, it's an expression of Islam?

I prefer to look at the actual evidence rather than make fallacious leaps of logic.

What "actual evidence" were you looking at when you trotted out this line?

Quote:

In fact the evidence that we have pretty strongly suggests that most muslims around the world oppose child marriage.

Would that be the evidence where you don't have to actually ask them what they think? How did that work out for you last time?

Why does your projection count as evidence, but the actions of Muhammed himself does not?

All your questions have been answered multiple times. Asking them again doesn’t add anything to a debate.

If you haven’t read the responses and learned from them, asking again won’t help you.

Karnal, there is nothing in this thread that can be taken as clear evidence for what the majority of Muslims around the world think on the issue. In fact we have been avoiding derailing this thread with that debate. Perhaps we should start a new one. I would do it myself, but Gandalf wants to go for the record in thread length.

We only have to look at the Pew survey thread to see how flexible Gandalf can be in projecting his views onto other Muslims.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

WWW

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #761 - Mar 10^th, 2014 at 9:39am

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2014 at 8:36am:

Karnal wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:56pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:07pm:

The link between Muhammed and Islam is meaningless and irrelevant?

And when Muslims do it, it's because of tribalism and poverty, not because Muhammed did it. But when they don't do it, it's an expression of Islam?

I prefer to look at the actual evidence rather than make fallacious leaps of logic.

What "actual evidence" were you looking at when you trotted out this line?

Quote:

In fact the evidence that we have pretty strongly suggests that most muslims around the world oppose child marriage.

Would that be the evidence where you don't have to actually ask them what they think? How did that work out for you last time?

Why does your projection count as evidence, but the actions of Muhammed himself does not?

All your questions have been answered multiple times. Asking them again doesn’t add anything to a debate.

If you haven’t read the responses and learned from them, asking again won’t help you.

Karnal, there is nothing in this thread that can be taken as clear evidence for what the majority of Muslims around the world think on the issue.

FD, you will never get clear evidence on what the majority of the world's Muslims think on an issue, and this thread is not asking that question. If you look at the title, it's about underage marriage in Sydney.

As we have repeatedly shown, the bulk of underaqe defacto marriages (there are no registered underage marriages in Australia) are non-Muslim.

You're right - your thoughts on what foreign Muslims think have nothing to do with this issue. Feel free to start another thread if Gandalf will let you.

On the media-hoaxed "epidemic", or for Y the "explosion", there is one marriage. The system intervened, and the father, the husband, and the imam were all brought to justice.

You haven't answered the questions put to you about media hoaxes on issues like this. I can only assume you think media-driven campaigns based on lies are useful in exposing Muslim "paedophilia". All your comments in this thread indicate this.

Given this is your stance, how do your own words differ from what you criticize the Grand mufti of doing? The Grand mufti condemns child marriage. You think he's covering something up.

But we haven't seen one statement from you condemning out and out media lies and spin - from a "legal and ethical" position or otherwise.

Doesn't this make you more cunning than the mufti?

I patiently await your reply.

« Last Edit: Mar 10^th, 2014 at 10:44am by Karnal »

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #762 - Mar 10^th, 2014 at 12:25pm

Quote:

FD, you will never get clear evidence on what the majority of the world's Muslims think on an issue, and this thread is not asking that question.

So we should start another thread? Gandalf, will you move it if we do?

Quote:

As we have repeatedly shown, the bulk of underaqe defacto marriages (there are no registered underage marriages in Australia) are non-Muslim.

As we have also repeatedly shown, Muslims are significantly over-represented in those stats, by an as-yet undetermined margin.

Quote:

You're right - your thoughts on what foreign Muslims think have nothing to do with this issue.

Gandalf seems to imply that Australian Islam is different to overseas Islam on this issue.

Quote:

On the media-hoaxed "epidemic", or for Y the "explosion", there is one marriage.

I disagree with some of your justifications for rejecting the other two that have been brought up.

Quote:

The system intervened, and the father, the husband, and the imam were all brought to justice.

The system only 'intervened' because the guy was outed by his own idiocy.

Quote:

You haven't answered the questions put to you about media hoaxes on issues like this. I can only assume you think media-driven campaigns based on lies are useful in exposing Muslim "paedophilia". All your comments in this thread indicate this.

Given this is your stance

I see you are taking after Gandalf. He does not need to ask people what they think either.

Quote:

The Grand mufti condemns child marriage. You think he's covering something up.

No Karnal. I merely think he said what he said. I don't think he is covering anything up. I think he was making it bleeding obvious.

Quote:

But we haven't seen one statement from you condemning out and out media lies and spin - from a "legal and ethical" position or otherwise.

Sorry I missed that. What exactly were the lies?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

WWW

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #763 - Mar 10^th, 2014 at 1:44pm

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2014 at 12:25pm:

Quote:

[quote]But we haven't seen one statement from you condemning out and out media lies and spin - from a "legal and ethical" position or otherwise.

Sorry I missed that. What exactly were the lies?

Now you're now sounding like Abu.

Should we take it from your reponse that you condone media hate campaigns about Muslim "epidemics" based on lies?

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #764 - Mar 10^th, 2014 at 1:52pm

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2014 at 12:25pm:

As we have also repeatedly shown, Muslims are significantly over-represented in those stats, by an as-yet undetermined margin.

At 6%?

Possibly, although this is hardly "significant", and it's not at all relevant to Islam.

Defacto relationships, as in Christianity, are against the rules. Any Muslims who engage in pre-marital sex are acting against Islam.

All any "significant over-representation" would show here is that Muslims aren't following their religion.

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