Australian Politics Forum - underage marriage in Sydney

Stratos Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4725	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #900 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 11:16am Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 10:17am: Muslim behaviour is regulated by the examples set by Mohammed in every minute way. One of the pillars of Islam in fact stipulates that Muslims are specifically NOT to copy Muhammad in at least one way. Your argument is wrong.
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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #901 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 12:02pm

Stratos wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 11:16am:

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 10:17am:

Muslim behaviour is regulated by the examples set by Mohammed in every minute way.

One of the pillars of Islam in fact stipulates that Muslims are specifically NOT to copy Muhammad in at least one way. Your argument is wrong.

Excuse me, who should we believe - some obscure Islamic "pillar"?

Or the old boy himself?

I think you know the answer to that, Stavros.

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« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2014 at 12:18pm by Karnal »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #902 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 12:14pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 10:17am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 12:03am:

An equally, if not more important point that you refuse to address, is the fact that we have no evidence at all that the example of Prophet Muhammad in any way inspired/justified/excused the behaviour of any of the 180 odd muslims from the census data.

How the hell do you figure that??

Muslim behaviour is regulated by the examples set by Mohammed in every minute way. Moahmmed's deeds and teachings are the primary guide to life for Mohammedans.
On what grounds can you say that om of Mohammed's actions and teachings have no impact on Mohammedan actions and life??
How (and by whom) is it decided where to follow Mohammed and where to ignore him completely as if he has never existed?

This must be some new development. Please explain.

Stupid as always Soren.

How many Australian muslims actually follow this blind "copy-paste" doctrine that you speak of? I know I don't.

Do you acknowledge that there are plenty of Australians who identify as "muslims" engage in behaviours that are specifically prohibited by Muhammad? Alcohol, pre-marital sex, drugs, etc - but even things like riba - I can guarantee you that the vast majority of musims who have a mortgage have a loan from an institution that charges interest, myself included - evidenced by the almost complete unavailability of non-interest lending institutions. Interest is prohibited in islam - yet paying and receiving interest is near universal amongst Australian muslims.

Where are the mindless drones Soren?

I put it to you that if underage marriage really was a thing to strive for according to islamic doctrine, there would be a hell of a lot more than 180 out of 470 thousand engaging in the practice - and a hell of a lot less islamic leaders condemning the practice.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96660	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #903 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 12:22pm Old boy, tell them about never ever - on stilts. You tell them that.
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Soren

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #904 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 12:46pm

Cunning answer, Gandy.

I am not asking you how Mohammedans fall short of Mohammed's examples and of Islamic teachings every day (alcohol, drug, loans at interest, etc).

I am asking you how Mohammed's example is rejected as inappropriate or outdated or otherwise unacceptable, such as marrying a 9 year old as long as she has had her first period.

That is what I am asking you.

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I put it to you that if underage marriage really was a thing to strive for according to islamic doctrine, there would be a hell of a lot more than 180 out of 470 thousand engaging in the practice - and a hell of a lot less islamic leaders condemning the practice.

And where there is sharia law, indeed there is a hell of a lot more of it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #905 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 12:58pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

I am asking you how Mohammed's example is rejected as inappropriate or outdated or otherwise unacceptable, such as marrying a 9 year old as long as she has had her first period.

In a discussion about proving that underage marriage is out of control in the Australian muslim community, this is even more stupid.

See if you can objectively consider how retarded it is - by looking at the question without islam or Muhammad: you invent a non-existent problem amongst a group of people, claim that it is rampant, then as a retort to someone pointing out that the claim has no basis in fact, you demand proof that this group specifically condemn the practice.

Thats what we call stupid.

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

And where there is sharia law, indeed there is a hell of a lot more of it.

Which is remarkably irrelevant to the discussion of the prevalence of underage marriage in Australia's muslim community. I believe thats been pointed out to you before.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #906 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 1:15pm

Retarded? That’s a good thing, no?

Absolutely, always, never ever - you don’t get more retarded than that.

Which is why we’s so fond of the old boy and his fine contributions to the board.

Just be careful on the stilts, old chap. Get Mormor to put on the padding and smear on some stool before you go in the sun.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #907 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 2:12pm

Soren wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

Cunning answer, Gandy.

I am not asking you how Mohammedans fall short of Mohammed's examples and of Islamic teachings every day (alcohol, drug, loans at interest, etc).

As a devout Lutheran, you don’t even believe in Gud, no?

That’s what we like to see, dear.

A little backbone. It’s what made our fine country what it is today.

Marvellous stuff, old boy.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #908 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 3:19pm

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But as to the point you were trying to make, we are talking about the 180 something muslims (out of a population of 470+ thousand) who are in an underage defacto marriage. If you are going to use it as evidence of what "Prophetically inspired" muslims do, then you need to demonstrate that these muslims were motivated by the example of the prophet. Sound reasonable?

Not really. How exactly do you expect me to prove the motivation of people whose identity is protected by law? Is this some monty-python-esque exercise is demanding absurd levels of proof for what would otherwise pass for bleeding obvious? Muslims are over-represented by a factor of 3 in those statistics. It is not up to me to prove that it is something to do with the fact that they are Muslims. If you want to attribute it to something else, go ahead. Otherwise, I will put this demand in the same basket as your demand for proof that a Muslim Imam marrying two Muslims in a Muslim wedding ceremony has something to do with Islam.

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On what grounds can you say that om of Mohammed's actions and teachings have no impact on Mohammedan actions and life??

He is not actually saying that. He is merely demanding that we prove the link between Muhammed and Islam.

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How (and by whom) is it decided where to follow Mohammed and where to ignore him completely as if he has never existed?

I have actually asked Gandalf that a few times, as he is one of those strange "anti-Muhammedan" Muslims. He has never been able to offer a coherent explanation.

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How many Australian muslims actually follow this blind "copy-paste" doctrine that you speak of? I know I don't.

I guess that settles it then.

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I put it to you that if underage marriage really was a thing to strive for according to islamic doctrine

Islam does not tell Muslim men what to desire. It is actually surprisingly liberal in this. Muhammed himself demonstrated that they may desire anything from wealthy old widows to your neighbour's six year old daughter, depending on what takes your fancy at the time, or what is politically expedient.

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and a hell of a lot less islamic leaders condemning the practice.

How much less that 2 can you get?

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See if you can objectively consider how retarded it is - by looking at the question without islam or Muhammad

Without Islam or Muhammed, Muslims would be just like normal people, and there would be no question to look at.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96660	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #909 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 3:26pm Two marriages now? You want to post the second one, FD? No one else has been able to find more than one.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49452 At my desk.	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #910 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 3:39pm Not sure where you got two from Karnal, but you have personally cited three.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96660	Re: underage marriage in Sydney Reply #911 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 3:55pm Sorry FD, I get you now. You’re describing two Muslims getting married, not two Muslim marriages. That’s a relief. Still, each one adds to the statistics. We’ve now got 2. Pray tell, FD, how many of those Muslim defactos by a factor of 3 had Muslim martiages with genuine Muslim imam’s?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #912 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 3:59pm

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2014 at 3:19pm:

Muslims are over-represented by a factor of 3 in those statistics. It is not up to me to prove that it is something to do with the fact that they are Muslims.

I'm not asking you to. If the question was merely "are muslims over-represented by a factor of 3" - then this is proof. But that is not all you are claiming. You are claiming that these muslims are doing it specifically because they feel it is ordered/condoned/justified by their religion. As opposed to the far more plausible reason that it is driven by the same factors that drive the other 94% - poverty, patriarchy, remoteness etc - and happens in spite of their religion, not because of it. Its like saying muslims are over-represented in Australian prisons because Muhammad ordered them to be criminals - rather than the well understood socio-economic conditions many muslim communities face. In fact I could mount a much more convincing case that islam successfully prevents the practice - based on the fact that 99.9999% of muslims in Australia don't practice it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #913 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 4:15pm

How cunning of you, Gandy. Excusing all those unmarried Muslims by a factor of 3. Pretending the ones in jail weren’t ordered to commit their heinous crimes by their imams.

Your socio-economic bunkum won’t wash here, you know. These are just excuses.

Muhammed ordered each and every one of those defacto relationships and crimes. And if he didn’t, as the old boy asserts, that just means the Muselman isn’t living up to Muhammed’s high standard of depravity.

The purpose of the Muselman, you see, is to be the enemy - when the Krauts and the Ruskies aren’t around to take up the slack.

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freediver

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Re: underage marriage in Sydney
Reply #914 - Mar 16^th, 2014 at 4:29pm

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Pray tell, FD, how many of those Muslim defactos by a factor of 3 had Muslim martiages with genuine Muslim imam’s?

I am actually interested in what those stats represent, if anyone would like to post the details.

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I'm not asking you to. If the question was merely "are muslims over-represented by a factor of 3" - then this is proof.

Discussion over.

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But that is not all you are claiming.

Ah yes, all those things I am saying without actually saying them. Would you mind listing them again for me?

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Its like saying muslims are over-represented in Australian prisons because Muhammad ordered them to be criminals - rather than the well understood socio-economic conditions many muslim communities face.

Plus, there are about a dozen terrorists. Is there a scoio-economic explanation for that? Muhammed actually had a successful career as a highway robber before moving on to rape and pillage, and Muslims, including yourself, are well versed in the spineless apologetics for those acts. It would not surprise me if that had an influence on the large number of Muslims in jail. Hopefully the head of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils will soon be among them. Another socio-economic explanation is one put forward by Abu I think - that Muslims are very good at recruiting in jails, presumably among the sex offenders. They are Muslims because they are jailed sex offenders, not the other way round. It is society's fault.

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In fact I could mount a much more convincing case that islam successfully prevents the practice - based on the fact that 99.9999% of muslims in Australia don't practice it.

Making up stats again eh Gandalf? Are you going to give us your statistical significance calculation, or are you prepared to concede that the factor of 3 is statistically significant?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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