Australian Politics Forum - The Insiders sack Piers Akerman

aquascoot

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #120 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 11:42am

Karnal wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 11:30am:

aquascoot wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 10:10am:

Karnal wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 13^th, 2014 at 10:35pm:

Yawn. Equality won't happen. It can't happen. Nor should it happen. Equal in what? Equality in everyone having 3 BMWs? Equality in the size of your lawn? Or equal to live in garbage bins?

No, Mistie, equality in things like access to basic health care, education, subsistance wages and safe working conditions.

I understand lawns and garbage bins are important to you. It's good to be neat and tidy, and these are worthwhile values to have.

But 90% of people on the planet have more pressing concerns, and this number is growing. The number of people with tidy lawns and bins is getting smaller, despite the burgening middle classes in countries like India and China.

Liberal-demokratic ideology holds that equality will happen the more countries develop. It says that as a middle classe emerges and grows, so will political freedoms, freedom of speech, popular elections, etc, etc, etc.

Equality is a value intrinsic to liberal-demokracy, and this is the dominant political ideology in the world today. The big geopolitical question now is whether China will develop in such a direction.

Yawn.

these things have all been achieved in australia. the dream has been realised and the left should fall to their knees and give thanks and stop whinging Wink

I completely agree, but what Australia has done is outsource its poverty to the developing world. Almost everything we buy is made somewhere else, food and services excluded.

Back in the 1980s, for example, Australia had clothing and footwear industries. Now, these industries have been outsourced to countries like China, Bangladesh and Vietnam.

There, labor costs are as little as a dollar a day. In Bangladesh, workers are locked in. If extra hours are required, security guards prohibit their exit. Shifts have been reported to go up to 48 hours. There is no overtime, no child care, no minimum safety requirements. When fires happen, workers burn. When buildings collapse, workers are crushed. When workers suffer from lung conditions relating to the cotton and polyester fibres they inhale, they are dismissed. There is no safety equiptment, social security, compensation, or pensions.

The clothes they produce are sold in Australian shops and department stores. We wear them. The workers who produce something as personal as the clothes we wear are an intrinsic part of our economy.

I agree, Aquascoot. We've achieved most of the conditions workers have faught for in this country since the 1880s. However, what we've done in the process is cut adrift our manufacturing sector.

This has returned to the triangular trade system of the 19th century - the "golden age" of globalisation. There, cotton was grown and harvested by slaves in the US, textiles were manufactured by cheap labour in India, and clothing was made by tailors for markets in England, Europe and the US. It was a system based on inequality, where workers were effectively owned by their "employers". It could not have happened if everyone had basic human rights.

While we have excellent conditions for workers in Australia, Bangladeshi workers are literally locked in until their labour is no longer required to meet our needs (cheap clothing). To pretend that this isn't happening, or that the system that perpetuates it doesn't exist, or that it's all about having a bigger lawn or being jealous of neighbours with two BMWs is like living in la la land.

Still, that's creative and critical thinking for you.

Yawn.

Things will improve!!!
I saw an interview in bangladesh and the greenies and do gooders were calling for a ban on "Guess" jeans as these were made in such factories. The workers were pleading that if westerners stop buying these jeans (ie join the leftard protest), they, the workers will starve.
baby steps , karmal, baby steps.
private enterprise WILL drag the people of bangladesh out of poverty.
the market has done this for most of asia and it can happen quite quickly.
south korea, japan, vietnam.....these places were basket cases.
What helps ?

THE MARKET.
CAPITALISM.

you bemoan vlad putin and the oligarchs.
standards of living are rising in russia.
what is dragging the rural chinese out of substistence farming.
Good old fashioned CAPITALISM.

in 20 years time, the bangladeshi will be moving into calls for education, health care, OH andS.
Its maslows hierachy all over.
What good is a school or a hospital if you have no job and cant buy food.
tackle things in their correct order.

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Karnal

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #121 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:00pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 10:26am:

aquascoot wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 10:10am:

Karnal wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 13^th, 2014 at 10:35pm:

Yawn. Equality won't happen. It can't happen. Nor should it happen. Equal in what? Equality in everyone having 3 BMWs? Equality in the size of your lawn? Or equal to live in garbage bins?

No, Mistie, equality in things like access to basic health care, education, subsistance wages and safe working conditions.

I understand lawns and garbage bins are important to you. It's good to be neat and tidy, and these are worthwhile values to have.

But 90% of people on the planet have more pressing concerns, and this number is growing. The number of people with tidy lawns and bins is getting smaller, despite the burgening middle classes in countries like India and China.

Liberal-demokratic ideology holds that equality will happen the more countries develop. It says that as a middle classe emerges and grows, so will political freedoms, freedom of speech, popular elections, etc, etc, etc.

Equality is a value intrinsic to liberal-demokracy, and this is the dominant political ideology in the world today. The big geopolitical question now is whether China will develop in such a direction.

Yawn.

these things have all been achieved in australia. the dream has been realised and the left should fall to their knees and give thanks and stop whinging Wink

you're crazy right? The middle class is dwindling, not increasing. And the separation between upper and middle is growing and growing, and not by the AMOUNT of people in the Upper class, but by they amount of wealth OWNED by the upper class.

Actually, economic data shows something quite different. According to the ABS, the Australian mean household income has risen by 49% since 1994/5.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/6523.0Main%20Features2201...

It's a different story in the US and, of course, the developing world. By comparison, Australia has a much more equal distribution of wealth. Gains in real wage growth have been made in both high and low income households.

This contrasts with the US, where gains have been made only in the very high income bracket. Low and middle income earners there have seen a drop in real wages since the 2000 recession, the Bush years, and the GFC.

When Mistie and Aquascoot talk about rewarding excellence, entrepreneuship, hard work, etc, presumably this is what they mean. In the US, those who generate the bulk of the wealth are hedge funds and currency speculators. There, the new money is all in money, endlessly circulating the globe creating booms and busts in its wake.

This is another global problem today: the decline in the developed world in real growth and actual production. When economists talk about green shoots appearing in the US and Europe, this is what they mean. However, the main growth is currently in the developing world, mainly East Asia.

This is because labor is cheap there, and this is because capitalism relies on inequality. Growth, after all, is surplus profit.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #122 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:32pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:00pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 10:26am:

aquascoot wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 10:10am:

Karnal wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 13^th, 2014 at 10:35pm:

Yawn. Equality won't happen. It can't happen. Nor should it happen. Equal in what? Equality in everyone having 3 BMWs? Equality in the size of your lawn? Or equal to live in garbage bins?

No, Mistie, equality in things like access to basic health care, education, subsistance wages and safe working conditions.

I understand lawns and garbage bins are important to you. It's good to be neat and tidy, and these are worthwhile values to have.

But 90% of people on the planet have more pressing concerns, and this number is growing. The number of people with tidy lawns and bins is getting smaller, despite the burgening middle classes in countries like India and China.

Liberal-demokratic ideology holds that equality will happen the more countries develop. It says that as a middle classe emerges and grows, so will political freedoms, freedom of speech, popular elections, etc, etc, etc.

Equality is a value intrinsic to liberal-demokracy, and this is the dominant political ideology in the world today. The big geopolitical question now is whether China will develop in such a direction.

Yawn.

these things have all been achieved in australia. the dream has been realised and the left should fall to their knees and give thanks and stop whinging Wink

you're crazy right? The middle class is dwindling, not increasing. And the separation between upper and middle is growing and growing, and not by the AMOUNT of people in the Upper class, but by they amount of wealth OWNED by the upper class.

Actually, economic data shows something quite different. According to the ABS, the Australian mean household income has risen by 49% since 1994/5.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/6523.0Main%20Features2201...

It's a different story in the US and, of course, the developing world. By comparison, Australia has a much more equal distribution of wealth. Gains in real wage growth have been made in both high and low income households.

This contrasts with the US, where gains have been made only in the very high income bracket. Low and middle income earners there have seen a drop in real wages since the 2000 recession, the Bush years, and the GFC.

When Mistie and Aquascoot talk about rewarding excellence, entrepreneuship, hard work, etc, presumably this is what they mean. In the US, those who generate the bulk of the wealth are hedge funds and currency speculators. There, the new money is all in money, endlessly circulating the globe creating booms and busts in its wake.

This is another global problem today: the decline in the developed world in real growth and actual production. When economists talk about green shoots appearing in the US and Europe, this is what they mean. However, the main growth is currently in the developing world, mainly East Asia.

This is because labor is cheap there, and this is because capitalism relies on inequality. Growth, after all, is surplus profit.

Karnal, I'd hardly use the US as a comparison when working out if we have effective equal distribution of wealth. You're right, that country has not seen any real wage growth for the middle class for yonkers. BUt that's not to say that we have equal distribution. Look at the growth in gdp over the past 23 years. Now compared median house hold income ($64,000) with that growth, and with the cost of living. You're really going to tell me that we have equal distribution of wealth in this country? It's not just about working hard - of course that's a major requirement. But it's also about ensuring that just because one gets more money, it doesn't mean they grow their power too. And that's what's happened in this country, which has resulted in very much a similar model to that of the US.

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Karnal

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #123 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:34pm

aquascoot wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 11:42am:

Things will improve!!!
I saw an interview in bangladesh and the greenies and do gooders were calling for a ban on "Guess" jeans as these were made in such factories. The workers were pleading that if westerners stop buying these jeans (ie join the leftard protest), they, the workers will starve.
baby steps , karmal, baby steps.
private enterprise WILL drag the people of bangladesh out of poverty.
the market has done this for most of asia and it can happen quite quickly.
south korea, japan, vietnam.....these places were basket cases.
What helps ?

THE MARKET.
CAPITALISM.

you bemoan vlad putin and the oligarchs.
standards of living are rising in russia.
what is dragging the rural chinese out of substistence farming.
Good old fashioned CAPITALISM.

in 20 years time, the bangladeshi will be moving into calls for education, health care, OH andS.
Its maslows hierachy all over.
What good is a school or a hospital if you have no job and cant buy food.
tackle things in their correct order.

Standards of living are rising, falling, chopping and changing. By some measures, the Soviets delivered better outcomes in Russia, including full employment, free health care and some of the highest literacy ratings in the world at the time.

But it was not sustainable, and it was a corrupt, bancrupt system.

There is no natural inclination within capitalism towards better living standards. Capitalism itself is neutral. It can deliver slavery or it can deliver the sort of prosperity we've experienced in Australia.

Without unions and without genuine representatives in parliament, conditions will not improve.

If you knew Bangladesh, of course, you'd realize how far-fetched collective bargaining and non-corrupt politicians sounds. It's a very distant dream.

Capitalism by itself improves nothing - it's what you do with it that counts, and for this you need a representative political system.

Interestingly, China is emerging to lead the way in carbon trading. Under our political system, this proved impossible. Many are now looking to China to do things the West can't do. Cheap labour is one thing - leading the world in CO2 reductions is another.

And, of course, being nice to the neighbours and not starting any wars is the other. We live in hope, but I guarantee you this: capitalism will look significantly different as China emerges to lead it.

Capitalism changed significantly from the model of the British Empire to US "exceptionalism", and now, we'll see whatever China gets to do with it.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #124 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:39pm

aquascoot wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 11:42am:

Karnal wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 11:30am:

aquascoot wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 10:10am:

Karnal wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 9:33am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 13^th, 2014 at 10:35pm:

Yawn. Equality won't happen. It can't happen. Nor should it happen. Equal in what? Equality in everyone having 3 BMWs? Equality in the size of your lawn? Or equal to live in garbage bins?

No, Mistie, equality in things like access to basic health care, education, subsistance wages and safe working conditions.

I understand lawns and garbage bins are important to you. It's good to be neat and tidy, and these are worthwhile values to have.

But 90% of people on the planet have more pressing concerns, and this number is growing. The number of people with tidy lawns and bins is getting smaller, despite the burgening middle classes in countries like India and China.

Liberal-demokratic ideology holds that equality will happen the more countries develop. It says that as a middle classe emerges and grows, so will political freedoms, freedom of speech, popular elections, etc, etc, etc.

Equality is a value intrinsic to liberal-demokracy, and this is the dominant political ideology in the world today. The big geopolitical question now is whether China will develop in such a direction.

Yawn.

these things have all been achieved in australia. the dream has been realised and the left should fall to their knees and give thanks and stop whinging Wink

I completely agree, but what Australia has done is outsource its poverty to the developing world. Almost everything we buy is made somewhere else, food and services excluded.

Back in the 1980s, for example, Australia had clothing and footwear industries. Now, these industries have been outsourced to countries like China, Bangladesh and Vietnam.

There, labor costs are as little as a dollar a day. In Bangladesh, workers are locked in. If extra hours are required, security guards prohibit their exit. Shifts have been reported to go up to 48 hours. There is no overtime, no child care, no minimum safety requirements. When fires happen, workers burn. When buildings collapse, workers are crushed. When workers suffer from lung conditions relating to the cotton and polyester fibres they inhale, they are dismissed. There is no safety equiptment, social security, compensation, or pensions.

The clothes they produce are sold in Australian shops and department stores. We wear them. The workers who produce something as personal as the clothes we wear are an intrinsic part of our economy.

I agree, Aquascoot. We've achieved most of the conditions workers have faught for in this country since the 1880s. However, what we've done in the process is cut adrift our manufacturing sector.

This has returned to the triangular trade system of the 19th century - the "golden age" of globalisation. There, cotton was grown and harvested by slaves in the US, textiles were manufactured by cheap labour in India, and clothing was made by tailors for markets in England, Europe and the US. It was a system based on inequality, where workers were effectively owned by their "employers". It could not have happened if everyone had basic human rights.

While we have excellent conditions for workers in Australia, Bangladeshi workers are literally locked in until their labour is no longer required to meet our needs (cheap clothing). To pretend that this isn't happening, or that the system that perpetuates it doesn't exist, or that it's all about having a bigger lawn or being jealous of neighbours with two BMWs is like living in la la land.

Still, that's creative and critical thinking for you.

Yawn.

Things will improve!!!
I saw an interview in bangladesh and the greenies and do gooders were calling for a ban on "Guess" jeans as these were made in such factories. The workers were pleading that if westerners stop buying these jeans (ie join the leftard protest), they, the workers will starve.
baby steps , karmal, baby steps.
private enterprise WILL drag the people of bangladesh out of poverty.
the market has done this for most of asia and it can happen quite quickly.
south korea, japan, vietnam.....these places were basket cases.
What helps ?

THE MARKET.
CAPITALISM.

you bemoan vlad putin and the oligarchs.
standards of living are rising in russia.
what is dragging the rural chinese out of substistence farming.
Good old fashioned CAPITALISM.

in 20 years time, the bangladeshi will be moving into calls for education, health care, OH andS.
Its maslows hierachy all over.
What good is a school or a hospital if you have no job and cant buy food.
tackle things in their correct order.

What an improvement.
https://libcom.org/blog/bangladeshi-garment-workers-win-77-pay-rise-14112013

Before replying, do the maths Wink

and watch this.

but yeah...things will improve. ...

That's the problem with globalization, it relies on absolute minimum working wages and undeveloped industrial laws.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #125 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:42pm

aquascoot wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 10:38am:

We have equality of opportunity in australia.
ANYONE with the drive and determination can make it , to achieve anything they wish.
They are more likely to make it , if we start the resilience training, the toughening up, the "life wasnt meant to be easy", the "harden up princess" training as soon as possible.
We need to instil in young people (who have these wonderful health and education opportunities) that set backs, problems, obstacles, disappointments are all just "grist for the mill". that an obstacle is a stepping stone.
We need to get rid of the false leftard notion of the lawnmower parent who runs in front of the child, clearing a path so that the childs path is easy.
Only through dealing with obstacles (bullying, injustice, inequality) and overcoming them , will true self belief , self esteem and achievement be realised.

The greatest sportsmen (look at rafal nadal with sever arthritis at age 12) recognise this.
Lefties and hand wringers, i dislike them not because i am some arrogant rich prick but becuase their doctrine, in the end , causes SO MUCH SUFFERING.
I'm not crazy, far from it. I have seen the light Wink

WE don't have equality of opportunity in Australia. We have BETTER Chance at opportunity than many places, but by no means do we have EQUALITY of opportunity in Australia.

Once we get our schools into line and guarantee that every child can get access to the same level of education, regardless of family wealth, we won't have EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY.

Once we get our hospitals into line and guarantee that every human being can be looked after to th ebest of care, regardless of wealth, we won't have EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY.

And you're right, people need to suck it up and do it hard, it's part of the beauty of life. But when the obstacles put in place are not of your doing, or when one takes advantage over another because of perceived power, that stuff should never be in the equation.

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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aquascoot

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #126 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:42pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:34pm:

aquascoot wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 11:42am:

Things will improve!!!
I saw an interview in bangladesh and the greenies and do gooders were calling for a ban on "Guess" jeans as these were made in such factories. The workers were pleading that if westerners stop buying these jeans (ie join the leftard protest), they, the workers will starve.
baby steps , karmal, baby steps.
private enterprise WILL drag the people of bangladesh out of poverty.
the market has done this for most of asia and it can happen quite quickly.
south korea, japan, vietnam.....these places were basket cases.
What helps ?

THE MARKET.
CAPITALISM.

you bemoan vlad putin and the oligarchs.
standards of living are rising in russia.
what is dragging the rural chinese out of substistence farming.
Good old fashioned CAPITALISM.

in 20 years time, the bangladeshi will be moving into calls for education, health care, OH andS.
Its maslows hierachy all over.
What good is a school or a hospital if you have no job and cant buy food.
tackle things in their correct order.

Standards of living are rising, falling, chopping and changing. By some measures, the Soviets delivered better outcomes in Russia, including full employment, free health care and some of the highest literacy ratings in the world at the time.

But it was not sustainable, and it was a corrupt, bancrupt system.

There is no natural inclination within capitalism towards better living standards. Capitalism itself is neutral. It can deliver slavery or it can deliver the sort of prosperity we've experienced in Australia.

Without unions and without genuine representatives in parliament, conditions will not improve.

If you knew Bangladesh, of course, you'd realize how far-fetched collective bargaining and non-corrupt politicians sounds. It's a very distant dream.

Capitalism by itself improves nothing - it's what you do with it that counts, and for this you need a representative political system.

Interestingly, China is emerging to lead the way in carbon trading. Under our political system, this proved impossible. Many are now looking to China to do things the West can't do. Cheap labour is one thing - leading the world in CO2 reductions is another.

And, of course, being nice to the neighbours and not starting any wars is the other. We live in hope, but I guarantee you this: capitalism will look significantly different as China emerges to lead it.

Capitalism changed significantly from the model of the British Empire to US "exceptionalism", and now, we'll see whatever China gets to do with it.

interesting read. Ta

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Karnal

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #127 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:53pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:32pm:

Karnal, I'd hardly use the US as a comparison when working out if we have effective equal distribution of wealth. You're right, that country has not seen any real wage growth for the middle class for yonkers. BUt that's not to say that we have equal distribution. Look at the growth in gdp over the past 23 years. Now compared median house hold income ($64,000) with that growth, and with the cost of living. You're really going to tell me that we have equal distribution of wealth in this country? It's not just about working hard - of course that's a major requirement. But it's also about ensuring that just because one gets more money, it doesn't mean they grow their power too. And that's what's happened in this country, which has resulted in very much a similar model to that of the US.

We're talking about real wages growth, Alevine. Obviously, that excludes people on the dole, but 49% is a pretty significant rise. If you ask me, it doesn't matter what colour cat catches the mouse.

The growth of the service sector - health, education, welfare, community services - has grown as a proportion of our GDP over the past 20 years, giving those on low incomes better access to services. This sector is currently keeping our economy going as manufacturing dies its slow death.

The ABS shows wages growth as stabilizing in 2011/12. We will, most likely, see some form of recession over the next few years. Depending on what the Abbott government does with taxes and government services, wages growth will most likely stall. In NSW, the entire public sector has had wage rises capped at 2.5% per annum. If inflation rises higher than this figure, we'll experience a decline in real wages.

And given the importance of service sector jobs in the Australian economy, this means overall decline. It definitely means a drop in our terms of trade, given our reliance on imports, and this is the real worry for the Abbott government.

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Karnal Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 96642	Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias. Reply #128 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:55pm sir prince duke alevine wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:39pm: That's the problem with globalization, it relies on absolute minimum working wages and undeveloped industrial laws. Exactly. As Misty would say, some are more equal than others.
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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #129 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 1:02pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:53pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:32pm:

Karnal, I'd hardly use the US as a comparison when working out if we have effective equal distribution of wealth. You're right, that country has not seen any real wage growth for the middle class for yonkers. BUt that's not to say that we have equal distribution. Look at the growth in gdp over the past 23 years. Now compared median house hold income ($64,000) with that growth, and with the cost of living. You're really going to tell me that we have equal distribution of wealth in this country? It's not just about working hard - of course that's a major requirement. But it's also about ensuring that just because one gets more money, it doesn't mean they grow their power too. And that's what's happened in this country, which has resulted in very much a similar model to that of the US.

We're talking about real wages growth, Alevine. Obviously, that excludes people on the dole, but 49% is a pretty significant rise.

The growth of the service sector - health, education, welfare, community services - has grown as a proportion of our GDP over the past 20 years, giving those on low incomes better access to services. This sector is currently keeping our economy going as manufacturing dies its slow death.

The ABS shows wages growth as stabilizing in 2011/12. We will, most likely, see some form of recession over the next few years. Depending on what the Abbott government does with taxes and government services, wages growth will most likely stall. In NSW, the entire public sector has had wage rises capped at 2.5% per annum. If inflation rises higher than this figure, we'll experience a decline in real wages.

And given the importance of service sector jobs in the Australian economy, this means overall decline. It definitely means a drop in our terms of trade, given our reliance on imports, and this is the real worry for the Abbott government.

Again, Karnal, nothing there I disagree with. But it still doesn't measure the equality in distribution of wealth.

This part does: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1301.0~2012~Main%20F...

It shows
Quote:

Another measure of income distribution is provided by the income shares going to groups of people at different points in the income distribution. Table 9.6 shows that, in 2009–10, 10% of total equivalised disposable household income went to people in the 'low income' group (i.e. the 20% of the population in the second and third income deciles), with 40% going to the 'high income' group (represented by the 20% of the population in the highest income quintile).

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Karnal

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #130 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 1:23pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:42pm:

aquascoot wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 10:38am:

We have equality of opportunity in australia.
ANYONE with the drive and determination can make it , to achieve anything they wish.
They are more likely to make it , if we start the resilience training, the toughening up, the "life wasnt meant to be easy", the "harden up princess" training as soon as possible.
We need to instil in young people (who have these wonderful health and education opportunities) that set backs, problems, obstacles, disappointments are all just "grist for the mill". that an obstacle is a stepping stone.
We need to get rid of the false leftard notion of the lawnmower parent who runs in front of the child, clearing a path so that the childs path is easy.
Only through dealing with obstacles (bullying, injustice, inequality) and overcoming them , will true self belief , self esteem and achievement be realised.

The greatest sportsmen (look at rafal nadal with sever arthritis at age 12) recognise this.
Lefties and hand wringers, i dislike them not because i am some arrogant rich prick but becuase their doctrine, in the end , causes SO MUCH SUFFERING.
I'm not crazy, far from it. I have seen the light Wink

WE don't have equality of opportunity in Australia. We have BETTER Chance at opportunity than many places, but by no means do we have EQUALITY of opportunity in Australia.

Once we get our schools into line and guarantee that every child can get access to the same level of education, regardless of family wealth, we won't have EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY.

Once we get our hospitals into line and guarantee that every human being can be looked after to th ebest of care, regardless of wealth, we won't have EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY.

Alevine, it's not going to get any better than it is now. A standard state high school provides a far better education than private schools in most parts of the world. We have free health care. I earn a decent income, and I've never had to pay to see a specialist if I shopped around. So far, anyway.

Equality of opportunity means we all have access to these services - it's not about the quality of the services provided. If you ask me, state education and public hospitals do the job well. Even university loans are interest free, and university is heavily subsidised. Getting a place at university relies on your marks, not your parents' income.

In the job market, we have full equality of opportunity. There are laws in place, and with a few exceptions, these laws are applied. In China and India, it is common to pay a bribe to get a public service job. In some areas, it's essential. The same goes for some university places and even primary schools. Try getting a driver's license without paying somebody off - try seeing a doctor in a public hospital. How's this - try getting a court case listed when you're in jail awaiting trial.

These are the countries we're now competing with in the global marketplace. We have no evidence that corruption in these countries is on the decline - far from it.

Most don't realize how good we really have it. I was talking to an Indian guy recently, and he was telling me about his willingness to get into the police buraucracy without paying a bribe (which he couldn't afford). The way it works, he told me, is that people take out loans for these bribes. Once they're in the job, they have to receive bribes to pay off the loan. He was applying to join based on the entrance test alone, but said he'd been told that he could bypass the test and get the job if he paid up.

This is how corruption perpetuates itself, and it's how most of the developing world works.

Unfortunately, things are not getting better and better under capitalism - far from it.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #131 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 1:47pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 1:23pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 12:42pm:

aquascoot wrote on Feb 14^th, 2014 at 10:38am:

We have equality of opportunity in australia.
ANYONE with the drive and determination can make it , to achieve anything they wish.
They are more likely to make it , if we start the resilience training, the toughening up, the "life wasnt meant to be easy", the "harden up princess" training as soon as possible.
We need to instil in young people (who have these wonderful health and education opportunities) that set backs, problems, obstacles, disappointments are all just "grist for the mill". that an obstacle is a stepping stone.
We need to get rid of the false leftard notion of the lawnmower parent who runs in front of the child, clearing a path so that the childs path is easy.
Only through dealing with obstacles (bullying, injustice, inequality) and overcoming them , will true self belief , self esteem and achievement be realised.

The greatest sportsmen (look at rafal nadal with sever arthritis at age 12) recognise this.
Lefties and hand wringers, i dislike them not because i am some arrogant rich prick but becuase their doctrine, in the end , causes SO MUCH SUFFERING.
I'm not crazy, far from it. I have seen the light Wink

WE don't have equality of opportunity in Australia. We have BETTER Chance at opportunity than many places, but by no means do we have EQUALITY of opportunity in Australia.

Once we get our schools into line and guarantee that every child can get access to the same level of education, regardless of family wealth, we won't have EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY.

Once we get our hospitals into line and guarantee that every human being can be looked after to th ebest of care, regardless of wealth, we won't have EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY.

Alevine, it's not going to get any better than it is now. A standard state high school provides a far better education than private schools in most parts of the world. We have free health care. I earn a decent income, and I've never had to pay to see a specialist if I shopped around. So far, anyway.

Equality of opportunity means we all have access to these services - it's not about the quality of the services provided. If you ask me, state education and public hospitals do the job well. Even university loans are interest free, and university is heavily subsidised. Getting a place at university relies on your marks, not your parents' income.

In the job market, we have full equality of opportunity. There are laws in place, and with a few exceptions, these laws are applied. In China and India, it is common to pay a bribe to get a public service job. In some areas, it's essential. The same goes for some university places and even primary schools. Try getting a driver's license without paying somebody off - try seeing a doctor in a public hospital. How's this - try getting a court case listed when you're in jail awaiting trial.

These are the countries we're now competing with in the global marketplace. We have no evidence that corruption in these countries is on the decline - far from it.

Most don't realize how good we really have it. I was talking to an Indian guy recently, and he was telling me about his willingness to get into the police buraucracy without paying a bribe (which he couldn't afford). The way it works, he told me, is that people take out loans for these bribes. Once they're in the job, they have to receive bribes to pay off the loan. He was applying to join based on the entrance test alone, but said he'd been told that he could bypass the test and get the job if he paid up.

This is how corruption perpetuates itself, and it's how most of the developing world works.

Unfortunately, things are not getting better and better under capitalism - far from it.

Yes but Karnal we aren't in the developing world, we are in the developed world. And despite the problems that are occurring in countries that we compete with, above all we can only ever look hard at ourselves and look at how to best improve ourselves. Our schools are better than most in the developing work. But what are we comparing them to? A public school in Brighton, Melbourne here vs a private school in the Dharavi Slum in Mumbai? Well, of course we're going to have it better here. But compare the public school in Brighton to the public school in Frankston and all of a sudden, there's a big disparity. And if that disparity exists then how can we ever truly say that we have an equal society?

Kids should be given the same opportunity to excel at school. The difference will be whether the kid chooses to take on that opportunity (and that's what is truly called individual responsibility). And until such time as we get to that position, where we can truly evaluate and say, "our kids all have the same chance to get ahead," then I'm sorry, but I really don't think it's wise that we say, "oh but we're okay because look at what happens in remote China."

And when it comes to corruption, well I tell you what - when a person feels they have more influence because they have money, and then attempts to use that influence to move ahead and it WORKS, then that in itself is a form of corruption. That's what occurs when you have a few people holding a lot of wealth. And that corruption needs to be stamped out.

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #132 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 2:02pm

and can I add Karnal,

there's a reason why in some areas of Melbourne I can ask a kid, "what do you want to be," and they answer "doctor", and they will become a doctor. But in other areas of Melbourne I'll ask, "what do you want to be" and the reply will be "doctor", only they are lucky if they even get to university.

Sometimes it's the kid, but as we have found out, more often it's the result of nurture. And while some factors, ie success of individual family's economic situation, can only change by way of generation change, there are also steps the society can take to make improvements. These are in the form of equality in services, *fundamental* services, provided.

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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Karnal

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #133 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 4:28pm

At the end of the day, Alevine, education relies on you. It doesn't matter how much you pay, what counts is how many books you read and how many essays you write and how many sums you do.

Health is a little dfferent, but a lot relies on you there too. A healthy diet and excercize is far more effective in treating many common illnesses than the useless drugs they prescribe - huge, billion dollar drugs like anti-depressants and cholesterol-lowering medications.

Mind you, in Australia, everyone has access to GPs and drugs. Everyone.

There are communities, however, where the educational and health outcomes are poor. This is not due to the lack of schools, books, GPs and drugs. Nor is it about "individuals" or faulty genetics. People live in families and communities. Educational and health outcomes often come down to the family and community you belong to.

I'm not talking through my hat here. There is good research that describes this phenomenon, much of it put out by welfare NGOs like Mission Australia. Pru Goward is currently on a crusade about how public housing creates poverty by ghetoizing social problems, and it's true. Anyone who's worked in community services has seen it. The money that feeds social problems - jails, courts, health and mental health services, child protection services, housing, Centrelink - does nothing to stop the flow. Often, each service perpetuates the next, and on it goes.

I could write more about this, but it'll just give Aquascoot an orgasm, so I'll stop now.

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mozzaok

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Re: The Insiders sack Piers Akerman - more ABC bias.
Reply #134 - Feb 14^th, 2014 at 4:51pm

The ABC is an island of sanity, in an ocean of right wing propaganda.
So brainwashed have the dull and ignorant become, that any fair minded reporting seems to them as somehow biased against the Libs, while the rest of the media shamelessly talks them up, ad nauseum.

The loathesome toad had no redeeming features that I ever saw, so his departure is no loss to anyone.
Bolt, on the other hand, while a shamelessly biased champion of the loony right, at least has a degree of wit and style, which I can enjoy for it's theatricality, if nothing else.

The toad needs to crawl back under a rock.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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