Australian Politics Forum - The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.

greggerypeccary

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #45 - Feb 17^th, 2014 at 11:49am

Swagman wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 10:05am:

Hence penalty rates is a stupid policy that creates an EXTRA cost without a corresponding EXTRA earn. It's inefficient and therefore responsible for unemployment as jobs are going begging because businesses keep their doors shut when they could be trading..

Nope. Just biased opinions and as usual no proof.

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Swagman

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #46 - Feb 17^th, 2014 at 12:07pm

Gnads wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 11:30am:

Working beyond maximum hours for ordinary time is not overtime. It's excess time

Assume a working week is 40 hours. 8 hours a day.

Work Mon-Fri and do 40 hrs.

If employer wants you to work another 8 hours on the weekend that is overtime and an overtime rate is paid accordingly.

If however the business doesn't want to pay you 1.5X or 2X for the same return it can (if the law was relaxed) employ someone else (that may be currently unemployed) to work the 16 hours for Sat and Sun at the same rate. Everyone should be happy.

The price of the labour is the same and an extra 16 hours of work is created.

Is it really that god damned difficult to grasp? Huh

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woody2014

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #47 - Feb 17^th, 2014 at 12:11pm

Swagman wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 12:07pm:

Gnads wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 11:30am:

Working beyond maximum hours for ordinary time is not overtime. It's excess time

Assume a working week is 40 hours. 8 hours a day.

Work Mon-Fri and do 40 hrs.

If employer wants you to work another 8 hours on the weekend that is overtime and an overtime rate is paid accordingly.

If however the business doesn't want to pay you 1.5X or 2X for the same return it can (if the law was relaxed) employ someone else (that may be currently unemployed) to work the 16 hours for Sat and Sun at the same rate. Everyone should be happy.

The price of the labour is the same and an extra 16 hours of work is created.

Is it really that god damned difficult to grasp? Huh

Why bother trying !!! Wink

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THE DUMB LEFTIES ON THIS BOARD DONT KNOW IF THERE WINDING THEIR ARSE OR SCRATCHING THEIR WATCH

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work. Reply #48 - Feb 17^th, 2014 at 12:24pm woody2014 wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 12:11pm: Why bother trying ......embrace a challenge....
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Doctor Jolly

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #49 - Feb 17^th, 2014 at 2:13pm

Swagman wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 12:07pm:

Gnads wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 11:30am:

Working beyond maximum hours for ordinary time is not overtime. It's excess time

Assume a working week is 40 hours. 8 hours a day.

Work Mon-Fri and do 40 hrs.

If employer wants you to work another 8 hours on the weekend that is overtime and an overtime rate is paid accordingly.

If however the business doesn't want to pay you 1.5X or 2X for the same return it can (if the law was relaxed) employ someone else (that may be currently unemployed) to work the 16 hours for Sat and Sun at the same rate. Everyone should be happy.

The price of the labour is the same and an extra 16 hours of work is created.

Is it really that god damned difficult to grasp? Huh

Surely a 1.5x or 2x penalty rate would encourage businesses to hire extra 16 hour staff more than a flat rate ?

You seem to dismiss the cost of business of employing someone. It cost more to have 2 people doing 60 hours, than 1 person doing it, when you consider the management overheads (costs) of managing 2 people, contracts, HR, super, etc, etc.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #50 - Feb 17^th, 2014 at 4:01pm

Yes - that's why people even here are telling me they are working 60 hours or more, while we have one of the highest unemployment rates in the State of NSW.

It's called bad management.....

Oh - and may I just add - a significant part of th3e problem is what I will now dub 'The Andrei Hicks Syndrome' - the employment of numbah crunchahs, whiz kids etc as 'management' at prolific cost in travel, offices and so forth - when for the same money you could employ 5-6 or even more REAL workers.

The hidden cost of excessive management is one of the most undug trenches in the industrial relations/wages debate.

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« Last Edit: Feb 17^th, 2014 at 4:08pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Kat

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #51 - Feb 17^th, 2014 at 7:44pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 4:01pm:

Yes - that's why people even here are telling me they are working 60 hours or more, while we have one of the highest unemployment rates in the State of NSW.

It's called bad management.....

Oh - and may I just add - a significant part of the problem is what I will now dub 'The Andrei Hicks Syndrome' - the employment of numbah crunchahs, whiz kids etc as 'management' at prolific cost in travel, offices and so forth - when for the same money you could employ 5-6 or even more REAL workers.

The hidden cost of excessive management is one of the most undug trenches in the industrial relations/wages debate.

And the answer is obvious. Smash corporations, conglomerates and cartels.

And outlaw 'futures' trading and currency speculation.

And watch competition and job creation blossom overnight.

You won't have enough unemployed to fill the positions available.

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work. Reply #52 - Feb 17^th, 2014 at 7:47pm Kat wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 7:44pm: And the answer is obvious. Smash corporations, conglomerates and cartels Trade Unions are 'cartels'
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #53 - Feb 17^th, 2014 at 8:00pm

Swagman wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 7:47pm:

Kat wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 7:44pm:

And the answer is obvious. Smash corporations, conglomerates and cartels

Trade Unions are 'cartels'

Yeah - but cartels with a lot of dividing lines - not just a monolithic group of graspers - a good many of their workers - and I've been one - have the best interests of both worker and company at heart... and cop it from both sides.

As a Union delegate I copped flat tyres from the workers, and personal attacks from the 'managers'.

Idiots the lot of them, and they all deserved to lose their livelihood - though I didn't, since I struggled to be a fair arbiter and spokesperson while out-performing everyone else at the work.

BTW - on the AHS (above) - this company at one time had over 60 'staff' for 120 workers......... read it again.....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Gnads

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #54 - Feb 18^th, 2014 at 9:32am

Swagman wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 7:47pm:

Kat wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 7:44pm:

And the answer is obvious. Smash corporations, conglomerates and cartels

Trade Unions are 'cartels'

Bring in the "class" distinction ey?

& are they the same "cartels" as Unions of Employers?

& no .... working an extra 8 hrs on a Saturday at ordinary rate after 40 hrs Mon- Fri is not overtime.

It's an excess shift.

It's an encroachment on your family & leisure time.

I have to wonder if any of you rabid Tory disciples have any notion of those ideals............

except that maybe for you but not for "Trade Unionists".

The push for a 7 day a week at ordinary rates casual workforce is simply a return to the past because of innate greed.

It creates no more meaningful employment... in fact it increases unemployment..........

thus expanding your "dole" queue.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 136914 Gender:	Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work. Reply #55 - Feb 18^th, 2014 at 10:13am Gnads wrote on Feb 18^th, 2014 at 9:32am: The push for a 7 day a week at ordinary rates casual workforce is simply a return to the past because of innate greed. It creates no more meaningful employment... in fact it increases unemployment.......... Exactly!
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Swagman

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #56 - Feb 18^th, 2014 at 12:55pm

Gnads wrote on Feb 18^th, 2014 at 9:32am:

& no .... working an extra 8 hrs on a Saturday at ordinary rate after 40 hrs Mon- Fri is not overtime.

It's an excess shift.

Oh for chrissake........It wouldn't be at the ordinary rate, it would be at the overtime rate where the worker has already worked their max contracted hours for the week.

I did not advocate the abolishing of overtime.

My argument is that otherwise unemployed individuals could pick up work on a weekend in businesses that are now closed because they can't justify paying 1.5X or 2X the normal rate.

In fact it's CRAZY not to do this IMO

We have people sitting on the dole and businesses closed that they could otherwise be working at.

That's the argument. It's common sense.

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Peter Freedman

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #57 - Feb 18^th, 2014 at 1:34pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 15^th, 2014 at 9:24pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Feb 15^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 15^th, 2014 at 9:03pm:

Gnads wrote on Feb 15^th, 2014 at 7:50pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 15^th, 2014 at 3:43pm:

The most cost effective way of structuring work hours is to have shift work where people's regular hours include a Saturday and Sunday normally.
So they do perhaps Weds - Sun and their two days off are Mon and Tues.
Then you have 5 day workers overlapping but with rotational periods off and you don't pay higher rates beyond the normal.

It's often how we structure our work agreements globally for regular level employees.

and you can stick that up your jacksie Andrei!!!

Not everyone works shift work that covers a seven day roster.... and people in 8 to 5 jobs why should they have to work Sat & Sun when all their friends have every weekend off..... like the majority of people.

The working week is Monday to Friday.... if you want people to work Sat & Sun .... then it's gonna cost you extra.

Because it makes sense from a corporate perspective which means the company is more profitable which means job security.
It's the terms we offer, if people don't accept it, there's plenty that will.

I'm a big fan of structuring our base level workforce on rotational rosters.

Flexibility: Napoleon.. jebus, you're impressive! Grin

It is flexible.
Not everyone wants sat and sun off.
Some prefer mid week.
What about Jews whose sabbath is not sunday?

We save money - we have workers working on weekends at regular pay.
I calcd the initial proposal saves us $450m

"Flexibility" is a corporate buzz word. It means higher profits by dropping wages and eroding conditions.

As a union advocate, I would be rich if I was paid just $2 for every time an employer's advocate mentioned the word "flexibility".

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God grant me the patience to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and, above all, the wisdom to tell the difference.

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Peter Freedman

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #58 - Feb 18^th, 2014 at 1:43pm

Swagman wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 7:47pm:

Kat wrote on Feb 17^th, 2014 at 7:44pm:

And the answer is obvious. Smash corporations, conglomerates and cartels

Trade Unions are 'cartels'

The Oxford Concise English Dictionary defines cartel as "a manufacturers union that controls prices, production, marketing arrangements etc"

Trade unions don't get a mention.

Is the dictionary wrong, Swag?

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God grant me the patience to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and, above all, the wisdom to tell the difference.

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Gnads

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Re: The Costs Of Not Paying Extra For Weekend Work.
Reply #59 - Feb 18^th, 2014 at 5:21pm

Peter Freedman wrote on Feb 18^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 15^th, 2014 at 9:24pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Feb 15^th, 2014 at 9:19pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 15^th, 2014 at 9:03pm:

Gnads wrote on Feb 15^th, 2014 at 7:50pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 15^th, 2014 at 3:43pm:

The most cost effective way of structuring work hours is to have shift work where people's regular hours include a Saturday and Sunday normally.
So they do perhaps Weds - Sun and their two days off are Mon and Tues.
Then you have 5 day workers overlapping but with rotational periods off and you don't pay higher rates beyond the normal.

It's often how we structure our work agreements globally for regular level employees.

and you can stick that up your jacksie Andrei!!!

Not everyone works shift work that covers a seven day roster.... and people in 8 to 5 jobs why should they have to work Sat & Sun when all their friends have every weekend off..... like the majority of people.

The working week is Monday to Friday.... if you want people to work Sat & Sun .... then it's gonna cost you extra.

Because it makes sense from a corporate perspective which means the company is more profitable which means job security.
It's the terms we offer, if people don't accept it, there's plenty that will.

I'm a big fan of structuring our base level workforce on rotational rosters.

Flexibility: Napoleon.. jebus, you're impressive! Grin

It is flexible.
Not everyone wants sat and sun off.
Some prefer mid week.
What about Jews whose sabbath is not sunday?

We save money - we have workers working on weekends at regular pay.
I calcd the initial proposal saves us $450m

"Flexibility" is a corporate buzz word. It means higher profits by dropping wages and eroding conditions.

As a union advocate, I would be rich if I was paid just $2 for every time an employer's advocate mentioned the word "flexibility".

That's right ....... for me as well....... I just say to them when ever they toss it up, "There's no more flex left in the shirt .... & I'm putting in double the amount of starch".

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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